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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    Exactly. Not sure why HP felt the need to demo an alpha or beta product. If that's how they plan to emulate or beat Apple, they are off to a bad start.
    It's a key part of Leo's new "Let's be cool like Apple" philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749
    So, I see all of the same know-it-all people that were here complaining about HP/Palm not showing anything for the past several months are now complaining about HP/Palm showing product.
    It all fits together nicely. Palm, then HP sat on their hands for nearly a year and all they could come up with is further delays before releasing anything and, according to LCGuy, "INCREDIBLY inefficient code." Not too much to cheer about - more like business as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749
    Watching a video of someone operating the device gives you better perspective than people who were actually there? Really??
    Not at all. Since the devices in the video demos are being completely controlled by someone from HP, they are being presented in the best possible light. Even with all these artificialities, the TP seemed from from being ready - like a pre-prototype. That should never happen at a product announcement event like the 9 Feb one.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749
    On top of which, I believe HP made it clear that the major reason for the event was to show developers the products and hopefully get them up to speed so that when the products are finally released these same folks won't be in here whining about how there aren't any apps for the tablet.
    Actually they didn't. They had a separate developers event that would have been more appropriate for a demo of unfinished devices like these. Instead, they had a full-blown press event on the 9th.
  2. #82  
    GMoney, reading your posts, it is as if you believe that the detractors mocked up some videos to show the new pad in the worst possible light. Then, we spread a bunch of FUD about the pad not being ready for shipment, and invented the idea that the software and features are incomplete. We are the ones who set up a false expectation that the pad was ready, and would be shipping within weeks.

    Dude, I don't know about anyone else, but my expectation was that HP would build an iPad clone, check, with a couple of extra features, check, that was ready for its big debutante party, not checked, and would soon hit the streets, not checked.

    I sat and watched this all unfold just like everyone else. There was no slight of hand. I had nothing to do with any of it. I, like everyone else, have simply commented on what I've seen. I am shocked that the TP is in the condition it's in. I am blown away by the fact the the Xoom, which has not had the OS for very long, is about to be released, but the TP isn't.

    Stop treating the posters here as if we were the enemy, and that the problems with the TP are just our delusional perception. We are as shocked and disappointed as you are. It just makes it worse when people try to spin the dismal state of affairs as some sort of victory. It does HP no good to pretend that all is well. It's not!
    Last edited by dandbj13; 02/20/2011 at 02:30 PM.
  3. #83  
    To me it only makes sense to see a near finished product.. aka playbook run smoothly. We are comparing a tablet in alpha stage development to a tablet thats close to being released? That is kinda silly. Regarding performance degradation, try running Age of Conan on an ATI 6970 2GB video card, which is what I have, and see how inefficient code brings parts of the game to a crawl, while other games are running in the hundreds of fps. Graphic card drivers is just one example of the difference between beta code and mature code. Now i'm no beta tester, but it makes sense to me that anything in alpha stage isn't even close to efficient. As to why HP decided to display it is up to debate. I personally think they were desperate to show something.
  4. #84  
    First off, I'm not talking about all of the posters here, just a few that have been here forever singing the same tune and cherry-picking facts to suit a strange need to prove to strangers on an internet forum that they're smarter than Palm. There are plenty of folks on here that look at all of the facts and provide objective useful feedback. I'm not talking about them.

    Second, it's a computer, not a way of life. Am I disappointed that I can't go out and buy a device now? Sure I am. But that doesn't trigger some strange desire to come in here and whine about how I've been screwed over. Like somehow, between the announcement that devices would be delivered "within weeks" and the actual event taking place on Feb 9, I reconfigured my life to be ready for the new stuff immediately and now that its not happening I'm f***ed. I'll either wait, or I won't.

    Motorola designed hardware to run somebody else's OS, and in fact, is not even putting a skin over this one like they normally do. That's entirely different than developing both the hardware and the OS, and the new software environment for developing on the OS, and working on the ecosystem and doing that in the middle of an acquisition. I can go to Fry's tomorrow and buy the components to build a system that will run Windows 7.

    Moreover, as someone who owns four Android devices by three different manufacturers (including Motorola), I can attest to how long it takes each of them just to re-apply the same skin (if at all) on existing hardware when a new version of the OS comes out.

    It's obvious that the hardware is finished but the software isn't there yet, that they want the tablet to come out with finished apps on it and that they've just recently come to the point that the tools are ready for developers to do that. Why that's so "shocking" under the circumstances, I don't understand.
  5. #85  
    look at the original playbook videos, and compare them to the new ones.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Motorola designed hardware to run somebody else's OS, and in fact, is not even putting a skin over this one like they normally do. That's entirely different than developing both the hardware and the OS, and the new software environment for developing on the OS, and working on the ecosystem and doing that in the middle of an acquisition. I can go to Fry's tomorrow and buy the components to build a system that will run Windows 7.
    The thing is, that means Motorola should be behind HP in getting a tablet to market. You're detailing a scenario that puts them at a disadvantage.

    While they could build finished hardware - as HP looks like it has with the TouchPad - they have to wait on Google to get the software build ready. And because it's not finished that means a LOT of back and forth between two companies. HP had the software in-house, and could fine tune the software and hardware much more efficiently with all of the components under one roof.

    HP and Google started developing each tablet version of their respective OSes in earnest around July. And Google didn't just finish the OS. They redesigned core apps like YouTube, Gail, Google Maps and the media player from the ground up while adding new ones like Google Books and a suite of all-new tablet widgets. HP got to unload some that off to third party companies.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    The thing is, that means Motorola should be behind HP in getting a tablet to market. You're detailing a scenario that puts them at a disadvantage.

    While they could build finished hardware - as HP looks like it has with the TouchPad - they have to wait on Google to get the software build ready. And because it's not finished that means a LOT of back and forth between two companies. HP had the software in-house, and could fine tune the software and hardware much more efficiently with all of the components under one roof.

    HP and Google started developing each tablet version of their respective OSes in earnest around July. And Google didn't just finish the OS. They redesigned core apps like YouTube, Gail, Google Maps and the media player from the ground up while adding new ones like Google Books and a suite of all-new tablet widgets. HP got to unload some that off to third party companies.
    why would Google have waited until July?

    Hp had to wait because they acquired an understaffed palm in july.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Why that's so "shocking" under the circumstances, I don't understand.
    What I find (and I'm sure others here as well) so shocking is how HP played the hype machine then come demo day when the spotlight was on them they demo a half-assed buggy product.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by nimer55 View Post
    why would Google have waited until July?

    Hp had to wait because they acquired an understaffed palm in july.
    Google didn't wait, per se. According to Mathias Duarte, when he came aboard at the end of May, Google was still finishing Gingerbread and had not begun much work on Honeycomb for tablets. After a few weeks of work on Gingerbread, he started on the ground floor of Honeycomb and did a lot of design and redesign work, which would mean he started right around HP did after they completed the acquisition.

    Yet, Google has Honeycomb finished and had a public SDK beta out before HP could even announce they had a tablet OS.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Google didn't wait, per se. According to Mathias Duarte, when he came aboard at the end of May, Google was still finishing Gingerbread and had not begun much work on Honeycomb for tablets. After a few weeks of work on Gingerbread, he started on the ground floor of Honeycomb and did a lot of design and redesign work, which would mean he started right around HP did after they completed the acquisition.

    Yet, Google has Honeycomb finished and had a public SDK beta out before HP could even announce they had a tablet OS.
    Except that Hp is rebuilding the os from scratch. (well not scratch, but they're rewriting most of the code).Made new developer tools, put out webos 2.0 in that time (not for old devices, but still), and are working on hardware all while having lost a huge chunk of their employees.

    Hp has been slowly increasing the size of the team, but I think palm's done decent work for 7months. By the time we get to the one year mark, they'll have gone from 1.4.5 to 3.0... Not bad...
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by nimer55 View Post
    Except that Hp is rebuilding the os from scratch. (well not scratch, but they're rewriting most of the code).Made new developer tools, put out webos 2.0 in that time (not for old devices, but still), and are working on hardware all while having lost a huge chunk of their employees.

    Hp has been slowly increasing the size of the team, but I think palm's done decent work for 7months. By the time we get to the one year mark, they'll have gone from 1.4.5 to 3.0... Not bad...
    Not bad if you can objectively appreciate developer effort from afar. Bad if you're a customer looking for a phone or tablet in the wake of a lot of blockbuster announcements from CES and MWC showing up in stores these days. Bad if you're a developer looking for some concrete direction as to where this platform is going ("Are PCs the priority now? Tablets? Why are there barely any devices on the market I can sell my wares through? When exactly are more coming and where or through who?).

    HP's competitors don't just have an edge in marketshare and mindshare. They have an edge as far as certainty of direction, timelines, and focus.
    Last edited by mikah912; 02/20/2011 at 10:39 PM.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Not bad if you can objectively appreciate developer effort from afar. Bad if you're a customer looking for a phone or tablet in the wake of a lot of blockbuster announcements from CES and MWC showing up in stores these days. Bad if you're a developer looking for some concrete direction as to where this platform is going ("Are PCs the priority now? Tablets? Why are there barely any devices on the market I can sell my wares through? When exactly are more coming and where or through who?).

    HP's competitors don't just have an edge in marketshare and mindshare. They have an edge as far as certainty of direction, timelines, and focus.
    Dude, you're absolutely right about all of that, they are going to struggle because of what's going on with the competition, but that doesn't change the realities of what HP/Palm have had to accomplish in comparison to what Moto did with the Xoom. They didn't have to stop the bleeding of folks leaving Palm and find replacements. Didn't have to do whatever it takes to buy and integrate another company. Didn't have to decide what ongoing projects were going to need to be scrapped. Didn't have to make decisions about which way they should go with development tools. Didn't have to figure out partnerships for software development. Didn't have to build an OS or development tools. And it's pretty obvious from the fact that all of the Android tablets coming out are variations on the exact same theme, that Google provided all of these folks with specs for the hardware.

    And, frankly, as someone who owns a Galaxy Tab and has had a chance to see what's offered in Honeycomb, I'm not all that excited or impressed by the development work. Just like I couldn't understand all off the hoopla over Froyo. Getting Froyo on my EVO didn't change the experience one bit, and while Honeycomb is a step up, it still has nothing on WebOS IMO. I'm tired of trying to work between applications and having stuff I had open close without me asking, and going back to mail and finding I'm no longer in the inbox I was working in. Hell, while my Exchange calendar is pretty solid, my freakin' Google calendar on my Android Tab has all kinds of sync issues. It worked WAY better on my Pre. And I don't see that any of that is going to change in Honeycomb. It's just a big screen tweak to the same BS.

    So, I understand all of the consequences, but sitting here being Monday morning quarterbacks and pretending anybody in here knows the first thing about what it takes to develop a tablet and tablet OS from scratch doesn't help a thing. Yeah, Palm put themselves in this position by sitting back on PalmOS for WAY too long, but that's neither here no there at this point.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Getting Froyo on my EVO didn't change the experience one bit...
    This one statement, in complete contradiction to essentially the rest of the Android world, makes the rest of the opinions in your post seem suspect. Just sayin'...
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    This one statement, in complete contradiction to essentially the rest of the Android world, makes the rest of the opinions in your post seem suspect. Just sayin'...
    Ok, maybe a little overstated, but the Android world tends to get really excited about some stuff that's really not all that exciting, IMO. I can recall when it was happening, I kept seeing the list of new features and genuinely trying to get excited about it, but once I had it installed it was a letdown.

    The biggest difference was speed, and while Froyo may have actually made a difference on lesser devices, the EVO was already really fast and I didn't notice it a bit. It's never had any lag doing anything, other than some freaky reboots I've been getting of late.

    Other than JIT and better Exchange support (the one bonus for me), everything else was tweaks that were really no big deal.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Ok, maybe a little overstated, but the Android world tends to get really excited about some stuff that's really not all that exciting, IMO. I can recall when it was happening, I kept seeing the list of new features and genuinely trying to get excited about it, but once I had it installed it was a letdown.

    The biggest difference was speed, and while Froyo may have actually made a difference on lesser devices, the EVO was already really fast and I didn't notice it a bit. It's never had any lag doing anything, other than some freaky reboots I've been getting of late.

    Other than JIT and better Exchange support (the one bonus for me), everything else was tweaks that were really no big deal.
    2.2 introduced the push notification framework, which is huge. Drastically improves battery life for applications/services that make use of it.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    2.2 introduced the push notification framework, which is huge. Drastically improves battery life for applications/services that make use of it.
    Man, someone better give my Evo that memo, then, because my battery life has absolutely been in the toilet since Froyo dropped.

    FWIW, GMoney, I think your thoughts on the challenges HP has faced are spot on. And count me in as another person not all that impressed by Froyo ... or, for that matter, Gingerbread.
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