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  1.    #1  
    Ok so I know this would be risky but it seems to me that Palms main problem above all else has been sales. Im not talking about it being stupidly cheap I just mean having the lowest end model undercut the iPad by maybe $75-100.

    Increasing the install base also solves a number of other problems such as the lack of dev support. Why should a dev make an app for a platform with a tiny number of users when with the same amount of work they can have it going to so many more!

    Also a large install base would drive sales. As soon as people really take an interest in my phone and I show them what WebOS can do then they are really keen to try it.

    Once people are into the WebOS 'ecosystem' a lot of them are going to want to then get the phone to sync it up to and then notebooks and printers and all the apps to go with it will follow and hopefully with that comes profit.

    They need a compelling reason for people to want a WebOS tablet over the sales machine that is the iPad and I think price is going to have to be the main differentiator. All my non techie friends just see the Apple logo and thats it they are sold. Sadly the HP logo does not have anything like that cache!

    What do you think?

    MBF
  2. #2  
    There are plenty of cheap tablets junking up the marketplace now. While competitive pricing makes sense, HP needs a competitive product more than anything else. Being $100 less isn't going to help when you tell customers that Kindle, Netflix, Hulu, and everything else contentwise is coming "by the end of the year", while iPad has it working now.

    So get those content partnerships lined up and written in stone, HP.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    A loss leader has to lead something. We have already established that the webOS smartphones will have to be priced to move and will need carrier support. Now you are saying that the tablet will have to be sold at a loss. What are you expecting HP to make money on? I'm wondering how many people who buy smartphones and tablets actually buy a printer or a notebook to go along with them.
    Indeed. It might make sense in the short term to sell these at significant loss, but you're hurting yourself in the long term because that introductory price is the ceiling for the life of that product. HP will never be able to charge more than that, and will probably have to sell quite a few for less months after launch.

    And this isn't like a game console where they make up the the loss with huge revenue from apps and accessories.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    Ok so I know this would be risky but it seems to me that Palms main problem above all else has been sales. Im not talking about it being stupidly cheap I just mean having the lowest end model undercut the iPad by maybe $75-100.

    Increasing the install base also solves a number of other problems such as the lack of dev support. Why should a dev make an app for a platform with a tiny number of users when with the same amount of work they can have it going to so many more!

    Also a large install base would drive sales. As soon as people really take an interest in my phone and I show them what WebOS can do then they are really keen to try it.

    Once people are into the WebOS 'ecosystem' a lot of them are going to want to then get the phone to sync it up to and then notebooks and printers and all the apps to go with it will follow and hopefully with that comes profit.

    They need a compelling reason for people to want a WebOS tablet over the sales machine that is the iPad and I think price is going to have to be the main differentiator. All my non techie friends just see the Apple logo and thats it they are sold. Sadly the HP logo does not have anything like that cache!

    What do you think?

    MBF
    HP could technically take a loss on the tablet and make money off the apps and other WebOS devices. I just don't know if they are going to do that.
  5.    #5  
    A loss leader does not technically have to mean a loss. It can mean a slim profit margin or selling at cost price. I just think they need to undercut Apple.

    I do think that it would drive sales of phones and notepads and printers when they arrive. I know personally I would be a lot more keen to have things all working in harmony together and I think a PalmPad owner would be far more likely to pick up a WebOS phone than someone without one.

    I agree that phones need to be cheaper but I dont think that Palm will have all that much influence when it comes to it as the bulk of the cost is line rental and data plans etc and why would a carrier make them any different to any other smartphones? They wouldn't. At this point in time im sure its no skin of the carriers nose if someone gets an Android phone or a WebOS one. They dont owe HP any favours so why would they reduce prices to drive sales of a new platform?? They wouldn't case in point Microsoft Kin!

    Oh and I agree 100% that they need services like Hulu and Netflix etc but I dont see them coming anytime soon with such a tiny install.

    Yeah the point about not being able to raise the price is a tough one but Im just throwing ideas around as it were! Its deffo not a strategy without risks but they need to do something drastic!!!!
  6. #6  
    Exactly. On consoles, Microsoft and Sony are getting $8-12 per title, plus whatever they negotiate for extra controllers, cables, etc. HP would get far, FAR less than that on the comparative meager amount of apps sold. If they can't make money off the hardware, where would they make it? Cloud subscriptions? If Apple can't even get the majority of iOS users to pay for MobileMe, I doubt HP is going to turn their offering into a cash cow.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    A loss leader does not technically have to mean a loss. It can mean a slim profit margin or selling at cost price. I just think they need to undercut Apple.

    I do think that it would drive sales of phones and notepads and printers when they arrive. I know personally I would be a lot more keen to have things all working in harmony together and I think a PalmPad owner would be far more likely to pick up a WebOS phone than someone without one.

    I agree that phones need to be cheaper but I dont think that Palm will have all that much influence when it comes to it as the bulk of the cost is line rental and data plans etc and why would a carrier make them any different to any other smartphones? They wouldn't. At this point in time im sure its no skin of the carriers nose if someone gets an Android phone or a WebOS one. They dont owe HP any favours so why would they reduce prices to drive sales of a new platform?? They wouldn't case in point Microsoft Kin!

    Oh and I agree 100% that they need services like Hulu and Netflix etc but I dont see them coming anytime soon with such a tiny install.

    Yeah the point about not being able to raise the price is a tough one but Im just throwing ideas around as it were! Its deffo not a strategy without risks but they need to do something drastic!!!!
    Drastic, sure. But there are contradictory ideas at work here.

    On one hand, we're talking selling products at a loss to get your foot in the door. And to undercut Apple on price on equivalent tablet offerings, they most certainly would be taking a massive loss. Apple's low prices are due to manufacturing chain ownership and negotiated lock-in. HP has no such advantages in the tablet and smartphone fields. They're using the same off-the-shelf components Sony, HTC, Motorola, and everyone else is using.

    On the other hand, they're trying to sell a connected suite of devices, which means to get the full benefits, you have to buy multiple pieces of hardware thereby erasing the low price advantage.

    Additionally, most of the tablet SKUs - according to the leaks thus far - are for LTE or 3G, meaning that carriers will control hardware pricing, and they have zero incentive to undercut their own products regardless of what HP sells it to them for.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    They need a compelling reason for people to want a WebOS tablet over the sales machine that is the iPad and I think price is going to have to be the main differentiator. All my non techie friends just see the Apple logo and thats it they are sold. Sadly the HP logo does not have anything like that cache!
    I think you are looking at this backwards. Its not simply the Apple logo; its what the logo represents of the experience.

    Non-techy or not, your friends associate a certain experience with the Apple logo (be it ease of use, exceptional customer support, quality build, whatever) and THAT'S what attracts them.

    Even if it costs more...well, we all have products we use, that we purchase even though there are cheaper versions available but we've decided for whatever reasons (quality, support, performance) the cheaper versions are simply not worth the discount.

    HP has a hole to climb out of, and that hole is that of being a me-too manufacturer with spotty product quality. they have to change THAT, and then their fans will, too, get excited when they see that "HP" on a new product.
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    I think you are looking at this backwards. Its not simply the Apple logo; its what the logo represents of the experience.

    Non-techy or not, your friends associate a certain experience with the Apple logo (be it ease of use, exceptional customer support, quality build, whatever) and THAT'S what attracts them.

    Even if it costs more...well, we all have products we use, that we purchase even though there are cheaper versions available but we've decided for whatever reasons (quality, support, performance) the cheaper versions are simply not worth the discount.

    HP has a hole to climb out of, and that hole is that of being a me-too manufacturer with spotty product quality. they have to change THAT, and then their fans will, too, get excited when they see that "HP" on a new product.
    I think your taking what I said a bit too literally. I don't mean its just because it has shiny Apple on it, I mean Apple have that brand image that people desire and at the moment they can do no wrong it seems and people will buy anything they make.

    It does not seem to matter if it offers the best value for money or even is the best suited for the persons needs Apple just seem to have a power over a lot of people and I really think that HP is going to need to do something like selling as a loss leader to get people using WebOS.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    It does not seem to matter if it offers the best value for money or even is the best suited for the persons needs Apple just seem to have a power over a lot of people and I really think that HP is going to need to do something like selling as a loss leader to get people using WebOS.
    If value does not seem to matter, how is simply selling your product cheaper going to help? I think HP will need to catch consumer's eyes with something other than price. If people don't perceive the product as equal or better in terms of quality, performance, etc., then lowering the price is just selling a cheaper product at a lower price. Let's hope these new products are as solid and sleek as the iProducts (or better).
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    I think your taking what I said a bit too literally. I don't mean its just because it has shiny Apple on it, I mean Apple have that brand image that people desire and at the moment they can do no wrong it seems and people will buy anything they make.

    It does not seem to matter if it offers the best value for money or even is the best suited for the persons needs Apple just seem to have a power over a lot of people and I really think that HP is going to need to do something like selling as a loss leader to get people using WebOS.
    Nope. Your post makes it clear she understood you perfectly. You are still convinced that People are buying Apple products despite, not because of quality, value, and overall satisfaction. You still seem to think that Apple logo has some type of mind-numbing, hypnotic effect on the masses. You would be wrong about that.

    People don't care about Apple today anymore than they did 20 years ago. It is just that Apple is producing the best of breed right now. They have done it long enough so that people have come to expect it. I don't recall the first MBA or TV being blockbuster successes.

    As I have said before, when your sales pitch is, "it's just like the iPad, but cheaper!" you've already failed.
  12. #12  
    MBF,

    Not to get too bogged down in marcomm speak, but basically, to build a brand (that people "desire"....) you have to 1) have a clearly defined brand offering, and 2) have products that support that brand image you are putting out there.

    A good example is HP.... in Enterprise.

    They have established what they are in Enterprise (quality, integrated, one-stop-shopping), and then they back it up with high quality products, that integrate easily supported by some of the best service/account expertise in the channel.

    Apple might sell to Enterprise but they have no where near the brand identity there that HP does.

    Likewise, HP does not have a clearly defined brand identity in consumer products, IMO. Not yet at least.
  13. #13  
    yeah HP needs to focus on making a competitve product, they can always tinker a price if sales arent that good.
  14. #14  
    Lol ^^

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  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Nope. Your post makes it clear she understood you perfectly. You are still convinced that People are buying Apple products despite, not because of quality, value, and overall satisfaction. You still seem to think that Apple logo has some type of mind-numbing, hypnotic effect on the masses. You would be wrong about that.

    People don't care about Apple today anymore than they did 20 years ago. It is just that Apple is producing the best of breed right now. They have done it long enough so that people have come to expect it. I don't recall the first MBA or TV being blockbuster successes.

    As I have said before, when your sales pitch is, "it's just like the iPad, but cheaper!" you've already failed.
    Sorry dude but I totally disagree. A lot of people buy goods to make a statement about themselves and some people buy things like phones and laptops as a fashion accessory as much as based on its specs. Currently Apple are fashionable and that logo sells FACT. Maybe not to everyone but to a serious amount of people its all about the logo and HP does not have this so they need to get devices in peoples hand and an aggressive pricing strategy is going to go some way towards this. Take a trip to you local Starbucks and you will see what I mean lol.

    Now I am not saying this is the only reason everyone buys Apple products. Granted they offer great service, Applecare for example, has been brilliant when my girlfriend had hardware issues with her Macbook. HP can match them on this one but if they dont get devices in peoples hands they are not going to know!

    I also never said they need to market it as its an iPad but cheaper. If you read what I posted I said I think they need to price it competitively and undercut Apple to get people to use WebOS, once they use it and see the great features it has to offer Im positive they will see how great it is and hopefully stick with it and buy other goods, but you have to get it in peoples hands to do this and a major part of that is going to be cost.
  16. cgk
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    #16  
    This is fantasy, as soon as you release it as a lose-leader you are saying "We spent over a billion on obtaining IPR, countless millions more on R&D, we can't compete with apple or even samsung (who are most certainly not selling the Galaxy tab as a loss-leader) and we don't think we have a competitive premium product".

    Shareholders think the CEO has been smoking crack in the board room and wonder how quickly they can get him out. They quick set about making it happen.

    Then the CEO wakes up and it was all a horror dream, he strokes his stock-options, rolls over and goes back to sleep.
  17. #17  
    I don't understand the fashion statement argument. I'm sure there are a few that buy a phone for that reason but is it really as widespread as people are making it out to be? <-- Honest question.

    My issue with it is that I don't see people buying iPhones and stopping there. The line up for it...every year. They get upset when told they don't qualify for deep discounts on the latest version. They buy apps. They buy music. They buy other Apple products. They fully invest into the ecosystem. In the end, they give the iPhone one of the highest customer satisfaction rating for a consumer product and they do it year after year. That doesn't sound like the majority simply buy the product as a fashion statement to me. Sounds like it's a really solid product.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    Sorry dude but I totally disagree. A lot of people buy goods to make a statement about themselves and some people buy things like phones and laptops as a fashion accessory as much as based on its specs. Currently Apple are fashionable and that logo sells FACT. Maybe not to everyone but to a serious amount of people its all about the logo and HP does not have this so they need to get devices in peoples hand and an aggressive pricing strategy is going to go some way towards this. Take a trip to you local Starbucks and you will see what I mean lol.
    It sounds like you're saying Apple's sales figures would be just as impressive if they didn't have solid products or top-notch support so long as they put their logo on the product. That's not a particularly prudent point-of-view.

    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    Now I am not saying this is the only reason everyone buys Apple products. Granted they offer great service, Applecare for example, has been brilliant when my girlfriend had hardware issues with her Macbook. HP can match them on this one but if they dont get devices in peoples hands they are not going to know!
    Nice job backpedaling about Apple. Have you actually used both HP's and Apple's support? They are significantly different from each other in their attitude, quality, and responsiveness. It seems your girlfriend has learned that difference is definitely worth paying for.

    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    I also never said they need to market it as its an iPad but cheaper. If you read what I posted I said I think they need to price it competitively and undercut Apple to get people to use WebOS, once they use it and see the great features it has to offer Im positive they will see how great it is and hopefully stick with it and buy other goods, but you have to get it in peoples hands to do this and a major part of that is going to be cost.
    WebOS is merely an operating system with a few core programs thrown in. By itself, webOS is a pretty thin experience. iOS is at the center of a much broader experience of interconnected hardware, software, and communications. No one buys an Apple product solely for iOS - they won't choose HP solely for webOS either.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    This is fantasy, as soon as you release it as a lose-leader you are saying "We spent over a billion on obtaining IPR, countless millions more on R&D, we can't compete with apple or even samsung (who are most certainly not selling the Galaxy tab as a loss-leader) and we don't think we have a competitive premium product".
    Couldn't have said it better myself, and I tried.

    The reason intentionally undercutting Apple's price is a bad move is you are not only saying you don't think the product is competitive, but you are also tacitly admitting that all you are doing is putting out a me-too product. Once you say it is cheaper than the iPad, you are also saying it is like the iPad with a better price.

    Instead, I would love to see HP build an $800 product that is worth $800, and doesn't make people think of the iPad at all. That is very possible. HP could produce something that would seem like a bargain at $800. They would have to make something fundamentally different, though, which is not a bad thing at all.

    Unfortunately, we already have a pretty good idea of what they are producing. It is as if the entire industry looked at the iPad and asked themselves what an iPad 2 would be like. That is not a high enough bar for the me-too types. They might come up with something in the ballpark, but they will still swing and miss. Apple's secret is not, nor has it ever been about hardware specs. HP will have to present something that transcends specs. I am curious to see what they do with their cloud initiatives. Services, not hardware is what will differentiate.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I think they just got done doing that - the HP Slate. Running Windows 7 and being so compact it probably is worth $800 and I don't think it compares much to the iPad. I think the problem is that few people felt they needed anything like this. However, if you needed to run Windows 7 on a slate it was a pretty decent implementation.
    Too true. But, the Slate didn't fail because it was $800. It failed because it wasn't a very good product. Remember all the anti-iPad types who were crying out for the Windows 7 Slate to arrive. There was a lot of demand for an iPad killer, and this was the frontrunner. They should have sold a million in pre-orders. $800 was a good price for that type of product.
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