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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    First off, it comes in 11.6 and 13-inch sizes, but if you want to base your argument around the 13.3 screen model you're jumping up to $1300, which is enough for a HP DM1z 11-incher, a HP DM4t 14-incher with Core i5 and a 14-inch screen, plus $200 left over.
    That particular HP model in the 11" size is WAY thicker than the MacBook Air. It is 0.8 - 1.2 inches in heights versus the 11" MacBook Air that is 0.11-0.68 inch in height. The HP model weight 3.52 lbs versus the MacBook Air that weighs 2.3 lbs. The MacBook Air is over a whole pound lighter than the HP. For an ultra portable laptop with similar screen sizes the MacBook Air whips all over that HP. When people are looking for a ultraportable laptop that is light and thin being the major consideration, MacBook Air wins by a mile.

    The 14" HP laptop is also heavier and thicker than the 13.3" MacBook Air.

    The MacBook Air is not for everyone, but when it comes to thin and light and good usability, it wins over those HP models.


    How is a book enhanced by colored text? Wow...some photos and and illustrations may be in color? What a revolutionary advancement.
    So, you're saying all the children's picture books in the iBook store would be no big deal if they were in black and white, while the actual books themselves have color pages which actually are a part of the reading experience when reading that type of book? OK...



    It's not an improvement. Your ads are limited to one platform which will likely never have the reach of the entire mobile web that other platforms serve, and you have a $1 million minimum requirement for buys. The quality of an ad platform is how it serves advertisers, not the people watching the ads. For the people, a non-existent ad is the best possible ad.
    I don't like ads either, but since they are needed Apple is more concerned with the user experience for the user when dealing with the ads.

    No, these are three examples where they copied and also improved upon what was out there. Doing the latter doesn't obviate the former.
    To copy is to bring out something similar. Like a Dell and HP laptop are basically a copy of each other. If you were to put tape over the labels it would be very hard for the average person to know which was an HP and which was a Dell. That's an example, of "me-too".

    Apple doesn't copy others. They say this is our way of doing things and it's not a copy of some other product in how it looks or how it works. Apple DOESN'T do "me-too".

    No one is going to confuse an iPhone, any of the iPod models, or the iPad and how you use them with any other product.
    Last edited by SoFly; 01/30/2011 at 08:03 PM.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    ...Apple doesn't copy others. They say this is our way of doing things and it's not a copy of some other product in how it looks or how it works. Apple DOESN'T do "me-too"...
    Really.... That's the Apple culture huh? See if you recognize this quote:

    "Picasso said 'Good artists copy, great artists steal'. We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas".

    Now that we have firmly established, from Steve Jobs himself, that the culture you're describing is purely myth, can we get back to discussing HP's tablet?
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Really.... That's the Apple culture huh? See if you recognize this quote:

    "Picasso said 'Good artists copy, great artists steal'. We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas".

    Now that we have firmly established, from Steve Jobs himself, that the culture you're describing is purely myth, can we get back to discussing HP's tablet?
    And here's the link to back it up for those who'd like to see it for themselves.
  4. #104  
    This thread is becoming a little silly. I wish I could ban multi-quotes sometimes. Let's please get back to the topic, or I'm going to close this to save me and the rest of the mods a big cleanup job.

    Personally, I think HP is going to make a profit on their tablet. If anything were to be sold at a loss, I would expect it to be their phones, which should be the entry point into their ecosystem, but that probably won't be necessary due to carrier subsidies.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Really.... That's the Apple culture huh? See if you recognize this quote:

    "Picasso said 'Good artists copy, great artists steal'. We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas".

    Now that we have firmly established, from Steve Jobs himself, that the culture you're describing is purely myth, can we get back to discussing HP's tablet?
    What did Steve Jobs mean when he referenced, “Good artists copy, Great artists steal” | Edible Apple

    Please read the ENTIRE article and LEARN what he meant by that.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    This thread is becoming a little silly. I wish I could ban multi-quotes sometimes. Let's please get back to the topic, or I'm going to close this to save me and the rest of the mods a big cleanup job.

    Personally, I think HP is going to make a profit on their tablet. If anything were to be sold at a loss, I would expect it to be their phones, which should be the entry point into their ecosystem, but that probably won't be necessary due to carrier subsidies.
    I apologize. Was typing the post when you said to get back on topic.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    That's funny. An explanation 14 years after the fact takes care of what he said? I don't think so

    However, I agree with the gist of the article. Apple takes others ideas, and adds value to them. That doesn't make them innovators.

    FWIW, that's pretty much what every high-profile company does. Big corporations (including HP, Apple, and even Google) seldom have unique ideas. They more frequently buy them.

    Now that HP has bought one, waddaya think is their best bet for success, sell the heck out of what they've bought into and hope that gets them market share, or offer some sort of bundled/loss leader deal to get the OS in the hands of others?
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    This thread is becoming a little silly. I wish I could ban multi-quotes sometimes. Let's please get back to the topic, or I'm going to close this to save me and the rest of the mods a big cleanup job.

    Personally, I think HP is going to make a profit on their tablet. If anything were to be sold at a loss, I would expect it to be their phones, which should be the entry point into their ecosystem, but that probably won't be necessary due to carrier subsidies.
    You might be right, but I still wouldn't be surprised to see a free phone, instead of a $200 one, with certain bundles.

    I also would be surprised if we don't see either free, or heavily discounted, phones at the corporate level.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You are mistaken, Microsoft did not give away IE just to compete with Netscape. Why invest money in developing a program only to give it away?
    In this case to fend off a strategic threat to their cash cow.
    MS made almost all their money from just 2 products: Windows and Office. The rest is small change, so-so or loss-making.

    When Netscape exploded people started to think of it as a platform - and Marc Andreesen certainly tried to push it such. When the browser gets used not just as a display program for static web pages - but as the front-end for applications then the underlying OS becomes a gradually irrelevant driver layer. Netscape was just early and MS was right to be concerned. Look at what Google is trying to do with Chrome OS and what already is happening with some mobile devices and cloud-based apps like GMail.

    MS gave away and bundled in IE for exactly this reason - to protect its cash cow that might have been killed by Netscape.

    For many people the browser is already the platform. For people who start their computer and wait for the desktop only to start their browser and then go to GMail, Facebook, play Farmville, watch YouTube, etc... - it doesn't really matter if the OS below Firefox or Chrome is Windows, Max or Linux - they all just abstract the hardware and allow the browser to run.

    The current generation of browsers gradually add support for HTML 5 with media support and 3G graphics acceleration. There's already talk of real 3D powered games being run on top of browsers.

    IE wasn't a loss leader - it was a desperate defense move that worked really well in protecting MS core business and keep it going for a few more years.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    That's funny. An explanation 14 years after the fact takes care of what he said? I don't think so

    However, I agree with the gist of the article. Apple takes others ideas, and adds value to them. That doesn't make them innovators.

    FWIW, that's pretty much what every high-profile company does. Big corporations (including HP, Apple, and even Google) seldom have unique ideas. They more frequently buy them.

    Now that HP has bought one, waddaya think is their best bet for success, sell the heck out of what they've bought into and hope that gets them market share, or offer some sort of bundled/loss leader deal to get the OS in the hands of others?
    It didn't take 14 years. The article even explained that. But, you, of course, chose to ignore that.

    Apple not innovative?

    The 50 Most Innovative Companies 2010 - Businessweek

    Most Innovative Companies | Fast Company

    TR50 - Technology Review


    According to those lists Apple is the top computer tech company for innovation. I guess they use a different definition of innovation from you. Or, you don't realize that innovation more than just coming up with something spec, feature, or component that has never been used before.

    As for HP. HP needs to do what they do best which is sell commodity products at cheap prices as they always do. They will get those customers that look at price over everything else and sell them a tablet.
    Last edited by SoFly; 01/31/2011 at 04:33 AM.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    ...
    As for HP. HP needs to do what they do best which is sell commodity products at cheap prices as they always do. They will get those customers that look at price over everything else and sell them a tablet.
    I don't think they're going to check in with you on that one, and I understand the concern from AppleFanWorld. Apple didn't fare so well when went head to head with HP over laser printers, they've failed to sell the quantity of computers that HP does, so I understand the concern over this entry into the field.

    But, back to the topic. Since HP is definitely entering the market, do you think a loss leader would help, or hurt their efforts?
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Since HP is definitely entering the market, do you think a loss leader would help, or hurt their efforts?
    No one has yet explained how selling at a loss makes sense. This is not a printer-ink model. There is no ink. The earlier bread analogy was even worse. People have to buy groceries. They don't have to buy tablets. Where is the business model for the loss-leading tablet?

    People who buy it for price will not be filling it up with paid apps. Android developers have enough trouble getting people to pay anything for apps. It would be worse with the loss-leading hPad. These price shoppers will not buy extra cloud storage. They will just take whatever is offered for free. They will not buy add-ons like keyboards and cases. They will make due with whatever came in the box. They will not buy media from the media store. They will just load up their pirated movies and music. What is the ink, razor-blade, milk these tablet price shoppers will buy?
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    OK, I understand what the "loss" part is supposed to be - the webOS tablet sold at little to no profit (with a huge expensive marketing campaign and at perhaps newly built HP company stores). I just don't understand what product it is the "leader" for - the one that generates the profits.

    Is it the webOS smartphone that will generate the profits? The one that will compete against the $150-$200 Atrix and the $200 iPhone?

    Is it the printers? I always heard that the printers were loss leaders for the ink cartridges. Does that mean the webOS tablet ultimately will be used to sell printer ink?

    Is it the PCs? Does a wonderfully functional webOS tablet make you decide that you need to add a Windows PC? Just how does that work?

    Again, what does the loss leader, here, lead?
    UG, I swear we were posting at the same time with the same thought. I wouldn't have even bothered if I had seen yours first.
  14. #114  
    a loss leader implies 'leading' to a follow-on sale. I don't think that will be the case here. What would make more sense would be a bundle. Tablet+printer. Phone+printer, tablet+phone. Netbook+phone, etc.

    they don't have the kind of product line apple does which causes people to buy more device types based on ntegration (like sharing apps between iphone and iPad).

    bundles would (and probably will) be more effective.

    and remember warren buffett's first rule of investing:

    1) don't lose money.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    a loss leader implies 'leading' to a follow-on sale. I don't think that will be the case here. What would make more sense would be a bundle. Tablet+printer. Phone+printer, tablet+phone. Netbook+phone, etc.
    I'm not sure how that makes it better. IMO, bundles are just loss-leaders in disguise. The only difference is you can't be sure which is being sold at a loss. Will their PCs get cheaper? The printers are already free in bundles. They need to make money on phones just as much as tablets.

    In the end, it is still a price-shopper they would be going after, and those are not the type who buy expensive enhancements. If HP is going to publicly go after the iPad by making an item that is as much like it as they can, they will have to go after the same market to be successful. If there is so much confidence that HP has the goods, and I hope they do, why all this talk of price baiting. If they want to compete toe-to-toe, let them stand up and compete.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    No one has yet explained how selling at a loss makes sense. This is not a printer-ink model. There is no ink. The earlier bread analogy was even worse. People have to buy groceries. They don't have to buy tablets. Where is the business model for the loss-leading tablet?

    People who buy it for price will not be filling it up with paid apps. Android developers have enough trouble getting people to pay anything for apps. It would be worse with the loss-leading hPad. These price shoppers will not buy extra cloud storage. They will just take whatever is offered for free. They will not buy add-ons like keyboards and cases. They will make due with whatever came in the box. They will not buy media from the media store. They will just load up their pirated movies and music. What is the ink, razor-blade, milk these tablet price shoppers will buy?
    Yeah...gotta agree here.

    If the idea is to sell at a loss to build marketshare and users for an ecosystem, you have to build it with people who want to buy your products at any price. HP is not that kind of company yet, and I don't know if they ever will be. Their Envy laptops get destroyed by equivalent MacBooks in sales. There is no premium branding as far as consumers go.

    Then, if HP subsidizes everything from equipment to developers to subscriptions, what happens when the free ride runs out and it's time to start making any sort of money?

    Just focus on making a premium product worth paying for at any price, HP. The rest will sort itself out.
  17. #117  
    Maybe if they're partnering up with amazon, you bundle Prime memberships which may include a netflix type app on the palmpad.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    No one has yet explained how selling at a loss makes sense. This is not a printer-ink model. There is no ink. The earlier bread analogy was even worse. People have to buy groceries. They don't have to buy tablets. Where is the business model for the loss-leading tablet?

    People who buy it for price will not be filling it up with paid apps. Android developers have enough trouble getting people to pay anything for apps. It would be worse with the loss-leading hPad. These price shoppers will not buy extra cloud storage. They will just take whatever is offered for free. They will not buy add-ons like keyboards and cases. They will make due with whatever came in the box. They will not buy media from the media store. They will just load up their pirated movies and music. What is the ink, razor-blade, milk these tablet price shoppers will buy?
    Personally, I don't think HP is gong to offer the tablet as a loss leader. That said, there's nothing to support your (somewhat insulting) notion that they're going to 'load up their pirated movies and music". You're basing this on what?? You think people looking to save money are automatically theives?

    Personally, I'm always looking for a bargain, but I don't have any pirated music or videos (or even computer software, for that matter). I've bought a lot of accessories for both my phone(s) and my computer(s). I expect I'll do the same for a tablet, if/when I get one; even if I buy one at a bargain price. Example, I shopped like a fool for my high dev TV and the Blu Ray player I bought. I spent $450 and $150 respectively, both in the low end range dollar wise. I also spent another $100 or so on accessories to mount and cable it, and then another $200 (that week) on movies.

    That said, I again do not believe HP will be selling the tablet as a loss leader. I won't be surprised to see them doing so with a phone though. WebOS, the tablets, and whatever ecosystem HP comes up with, will be the "other things" that the loss leader would lead to.

    Now please, disagree with the concept if you wish, but leave the insulting innuendo at the other side of the keyboard.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Maybe if they're partnering up with amazon, you bundle Prime memberships which may include a netflix type app on the palmpad.
    As a Prime member and Netflix subscriber, I can get behind that. But it still does not solve the fundamental issue. Prime memberships are for people who buy a lot of stuff from Amazon. They are big spenders who are rewarded for spending even more. The last thing Amazon wants is a bunch of people who got free prime memberships and ordering $2.00 items once every other month. Amazon loses on that deal.

    No, if you are attracting the type of person who would make use of Amazon Prime, you don't need to price bait them in the first place. I think we should wait and see what they offer before we relegate them to the Blue Light special.
  20. #120  
    I don't see them wanting to lose money on phones either. That's a slightly different animal than tablets but an important one as well. These phones, off contract, are often priced more than tablets. There's too much potential.

    They do have more than one tablet to play pricing games with though. Maybe the 7" version will play that loss leader role? Most want 9" tablets anyways according to another thread on here.

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