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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveBongFace View Post
    But I just want to make one thing clear, I am not saying everyone buys Apple products because they are fashionable but many do. I agree Apple make great products. I'm also not saying that HP slashing price is the only way they can differentiate from Apple but it is one and its a biggie!

    Brand image matters one heck of a lot and you either got it or you aint and at the moment HP are not even close to having the Kudos that the little shiny Apple gives you.
    This might be the source of our disagreement here: do you equate a successful "brand image" with "being fashionable?"

    As a marketing professional, I have to say, you would be very very wrong.

    Your statement above seems to imply you do. The two are very different, and if HP doesn't develop a brand identity for consumer products, beyond Super Cheap!!, they are screwed.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    This might be the source of our disagreement here: do you equate a successful "brand image" with "being fashionable?"

    As a marketing professional, I have to say, you would be very very wrong.
    It's worse than that. HP seems to be making the same mistake as many on this board regarding Apple's success. Leo said, directly and indirectly, that he wanted HP to be "cool" like Apple. If he thinks Apple is only successful because they are "cool," best sell those HP shares right now. It sounds like he wants to be fashionable in the bad way that so many here believe Apple to be. That is a very bad sign.

    The last thing Leo and HP should be trying to be is cool. They're not! They're not ever going to be! That is not in their corporate DNA. As in life, when squares abandon their unique identity so that they can become cool like the gangstas, they end up in trouble, in jail, dead, or irrelevant. The world will forever be deprived of what they had to offer because they sold it cheap for fifteen minutes of infamy with the cool kids.

    HP had better get a handle on who they are before they end up as just another shell of a company that, for a little while, thought they were Apple.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I think it's more likely that some of us feel that the technology that we prefer is evaluated on merit while technology that others prefer, especially if they are in the majority, must not be evaluated on merit but rather less legitimate grounds.

    Otherwise, we would have no choice other than to question our own preferences and that's too much work. It's much easier to simply dismiss the preferences of others as being "fashionable".
    Possibly true in some cases. I have four daughters. 2 of them have Blackberries, one of them has a Pre, and one of them has an iPhone.

    If you asked them why, they would have the following answers:
    Blackberry 1 - Because I thought it would be good. I'm selling it and getting an iPhone
    Blackberry 2 - Because my friends told me it was a good phone
    Pre - because my dad gave me his
    iPhone - because my husband got one, and decided we both should have them

    And these are people who grew up with a father that made his living in technology.

    My guess is that about 80% of the smartphone owners I know would have similar reasons, or a variant of #3 - "Because it's what my company gives me".

    No, I don't believe the majority of owners buy what they've got because of their technological expertise on the item.

    Edit
    I'll add - Because I like it better is a totally legitimate reason. In other words, technology reasons are legitmate reasons, but then so are just about every other reason, as long as the "reason" is based in fact.

    IE - "I like the color, blue is my favorite" is a perfectly legitmate reason for buying a phone - unless the phone is red.
    Last edited by hparsons; 01/28/2011 at 04:47 PM.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    ... Any company that will sell you an iPaq Glisten in 2011 and, with a straight face, tell you "this is the best smartphone for you" has a credibility problem. If they really want people to think HP is cool like Apple then you really can't have people walking around with new iPaqs. Oh, and you probably shouldn't keep selling printer ink as if it were liquid gold. Not cool.
    I'm a little confused. Are you saying it's only OK for one particular company to look you in the face (figuratively speaking, of course) and over exaggerate the advantages of their product, and not the other?

    It's OK for one company to charge a premium price for their exclusive (in a way) product, and not the other?

    Why?

    Not saying it's right for either company to do so, but fact it, both of them have, and both will likely continue to do so.

    Case in point, geeky "I'm a PC" guy (who in real life is actually a Mac user) and cool looking "I'm a Mac guy" (who, in real life, I have no idea what he uses).
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Leo said, directly and indirectly, that he wanted HP to be "cool" like Apple. If he thinks Apple is only successful because they are "cool," best sell those HP shares right now. It sounds like he wants to be fashionable in the bad way that so many here believe Apple to be. That is a very bad sign.

    I am going to give Leo, by all accounts, a smart man, the benefit of the doubt here and assume he knows this, and his statement was shorthand for "we want to be as successful in this space as Apple."

    We'll see, and I don't know if they can do it, but I doubt he that clueless.
  6. #66  
    And all this crap about Apple being the fashionable thing to own is a bunch of bull!

    Apple provides an ecosystem that no other competitor can match. Go into any store and see how many products have the iPhone/iPod dock on it. You got all the clock radios that have the dock. The speaker systems, treadmills, elliptical machines have the iPod/iPhone dock. All the cars that now come with an interface that allows the iPod/iPhone interface for music to show up on the car audio system.

    Singapore Airlines has the iPod/iPhone dock for their business and first class passengers, with other airlines doing the same. My gym is totally iPod/iPhone compatible. Denon, the high end audio manufacturer, is putting Apple's AirPlay in their products. Every time I stay in a hotel, guess what? I find the iPod/iPhone dock.

    So, are people really buying Apple's iPhone because it is fashionable, or is it because Apple's products mesh with their lives better?
  7. #67  
    Disney has tried hard to develop a hip image, and has failed at it in many ways, instead of embracing the positive image it already has. Build on your strengths.

    My understanding is you can't force hip or cool, it either happens or it doesn't.
    You may be considered a poser.
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
    Should I buy a Handspring Visor instead?
    Got a Pre2! "It eats iPhones for Breakfast"!
  8. #68  
    This thread is about: Palm Pad should be sold as a loss leader

    Some took this off-topic as yet another oportunity to fight with rivals.

    Stop it. No one else wants to hear it.

    If you do not want to reply about the thread topic, then don't.

    Post about smartphones and thier software not about each other.

    Last chance.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    This thread is about: Palm Pad should be sold as a loss leader
    To that topic, anything that has to be sold at a loss to get people interested, is not interesting in the ways that matter for it to be successful. After you have given these price shoppers a $100 pad with a free month of 3G service, a fake rebate, 10 free apps, and some trial software they will never upgrade, what do you have?

    Rather than selling it at a loss, perhaps they should find a Tim Cook style supply expert who can secure parts and manufacturing in such a way that they can sell it for both an attractive price, and a profit. The key, as always, is producing a product people actually are willing to pay for.
  10. #70  
    Well, as for the OP topic? I don't know what the product really is yet. Or ecosystem. Or if phones are coming as well.

    I can only say without knowing much that my answer would be NO. Year one (and this is basically year one) isn't about sales. Many are keying in on this for WP7 devices and ready to cry failure but its year one for them as well. Doesn't matter. The goal is to get established and get these proposed systems out in the real world. HP knows what their cost is and what they need to charge.

    This is a marathon. Year one is about having working devices out there and being able to focus on brand, apps, ecosystem, and OS. You can't establish anything if they're still stuck in house. You certainly don't want to establish low quality (by way of low pricing) right off the bat. And having two tablets, 9 and 7, it will be more difficult to position. Interesting that the 9" is dominating the 7" in another thread without knowing pricing or anything else.

    As for being cool, I think HP needs to choose "premium" instead (because that's cool with me :P). Know your market. It goes from enterprise to consumers back to enterprise, and now Leo says its consumers again. Better focus. There's a difference between focusing on Joe Blow down the street vs that busy business exec vs IT department in enterprise.
    Last edited by cardfan; 01/29/2011 at 10:55 AM.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    To that topic, anything that has to be sold at a loss to get people interested, is not interesting in the ways that matter for it to be successful. After you have given these price shoppers a $100 pad with a free month of 3G service, a fake rebate, 10 free apps, and some trial software they will never upgrade, what do you have?
    ...
    Sorry, your premise is simply incorrect. Lots of things that are sold at a loss have people interested. Bread is frequently sold at a loss. It's done so to attract people that are interested in bread to that particular store.

    So, selling a tablet with WebOS, attracting people that want a tablet to WebOS does not mean that the tablet would be "not interesting". Just the opposite, the loss leader concept plays off the fact that someone is interested.

    That said, I don't think HP will do that. That's like selling steak as your loss leader. I expect to see some bundles from HP, and I suspect the phone devices are we're they're going to offer some initial bargains.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry, your premise is simply incorrect. Lots of things that are sold at a loss have people interested. Bread is frequently sold at a loss. It's done so to attract people that are interested in bread to that particular store.
    This will quickly escalate into a competition of ever worsening analogies. Discounting cheap bread does not attract bread connoisseurs. You will get a bunch of people in line with a purse full of coupons, expecting a discount on everything. Oh, and don't serve free samples that day. That is not the kind of customer a high-end bakery wants to attract when they open. Do you want HP to be Panera or Walmart?

    So, selling a tablet with WebOS, attracting people that want a tablet to WebOS does not mean that the tablet would be "not interesting". Just the opposite, the loss leader concept plays off the fact that someone is interested.
    I said the pad would not be interesting in the ways that matter. I can give anything away for free, or sell lots of nice things for cheap. Just because you got people in the door with a $100 tablet doesn't mean you succeeded. Kmart managed to do that. Are you shooting for an Augen or an iPad?

    That said, I don't think HP will do that. That's like selling steak as your loss leader. I expect to see some bundles from HP, and I suspect the phone devices are we're they're going to offer some initial bargains.
    Initial bargains attract bargain hunters. With tactics like that, the hPad will be serious competition for the Augen. It is hard to recover from initial bargains. If HP is trying to be cool like Apple, even if they want to have 1/10 the success of Apple, they want go anywhere near the bargain bin on day one. They have to have a product that is compelling on its own merits, not just because it came with a bunch of free stuff.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    This will quickly escalate into a competition of ever worsening analogies. Discounting cheap bread does not attract bread connoisseurs. You will get a bunch of people in line with a purse full of coupons, expecting a discount on everything....

    Initial bargains attract bargain hunters. With tactics like that, the hPad will be serious competition for the Augen..
    It sounds like you're trying to say these things don't work, and that when they're employed, all they attract are bargain hunters. If you believe that, then you don't know marketing, and you haven't been in retail. I have. They don't work the way you describe, and loss leaders not only have been used successfully in the past, they are used continually today.


    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I said the pad would not be interesting in the ways that matter. I can give anything away for free, or sell lots of nice things for cheap. Just because you got people in the door with a $100 tablet doesn't mean you succeeded. Kmart managed to do that. Are you shooting for an Augen or an iPad?
    Did you say that? I guess I missed it. I thought you said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    To that topic, anything that has to be sold at a loss to get people interested, is not interesting in the ways that matter for it to be successful.
    To which I responded. I thought the implication was pretty clear, as a matter of fact, I even stated that I didn't think it would be the tablet that would be the loss leader, but the phone. My suspicion is that HP will offer some sort of bundle, or discount, but that those would be primarily aimed at the phone(s). The phone(s) are the bread and eggs in my loss leader analogy, the tablet is the steak. Getting users in the habit of coming to the same store over - that "store" would be HPs ecosystem.

    Now then, I have a question for you, and the other detractors. This is simply a discussion about possibilities, but several on here seem to be striving to promote the following:

    HP can't do something different (like offering discounts) because that would make them a failure company.

    HP can't do something, anything, similar to what Apple has done (successfully), because after all, the perception is Apple created it all, and HP would just be a "me too" in that case, which would make them fail.

    So, they can't do different, they can't do the same. Seems the only option (for some) around here is that HP will fail.

    However, I don't think HP sees it that way.

    So, what is your suggestion on what HP needs to do to succeed - short of ceding the world to Apple, of course (again, don't think that one is going to happen).
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    It sounds like you're trying to say these things don't work, and that when they're employed, all they attract are bargain hunters. If you believe that, then you don't know marketing, and you haven't been in retail. I have. They don't work the way you describe, and loss leaders not only have been used successfully in the past, they are used continually today.
    OK, start naming the consumer technology products that were used as loss leaders that went on to become successful products.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    OK, start naming the consumer technology products that were used as loss leaders that went on to become successful products.
    Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'll be happy to look around some.

    However, does this mean that HP is relegated to only doing what's already been done?

    While you ponder that one, I'll check around a bit.
  16. #76  
    OK, got a couple for you. One is pretty obvious (I'm not sure why I didn't think of it right off the bat), but may not exactly be a "loss leader", since I'm not sure they're sold at a loss (though I really believe they are, I've been out of the business for a while so I don't know for sure). The other one is more complex, so folks will probably think I'm prattling on, but I hope they bear with me.

    Laser Printers
    You can purchase brand new, name brand laser printers for as cheap as $50 (probably even less). I don't know for sure that this is at a loss, but I am sure it's pretty close. Why would they do it? Because they learned a lesson from the (arguably) laser printer leader (ahem ... HP), get the printer in the customer's hands, make sure they have reason to use it, then sell them toner and cartridges. At a handsom profit. That's a loss leader, at least, it's the concept.

    Internet Explorer
    Yeah, that's a loss leader. Some of this is personal opinion, but I saw it happening, predicted it was what was happening at the time, and have been proven out. Of course, someone is free to disagree, but it won't change my mind.

    Way back in the early 90's, there were some free and semi-free web browsers (Mozilla come Netscape was the leader of the pack). Microsoft was smart enough to realize that the browser could easily level the playing field in the OS world. If enough content, and even (heaven forbid) applications were offered on the internet, then it wouldn't matter what OS a consumer was using. Everything would live in the browser.

    How to combat that? Well, if they offered content at the server that could only be used by a browser on their OS, that would help. So, the answer was - offer a browser that used said content, and was only available on their OS.

    They did, as part of the Microsoft Plus package. Few people were really interested. Even those that bought Plus didn't really care for the browser (I think it was a $60 package at the time, more than a laser printer today - ironic, huh?). So, MS tried again. They offered it as a $10 download. Little interest. Then they offered it for free (if it hadn't before, at that point it truly became a "loss leader"). Still no interest. Finally, before their best selling OS line lost its leverage for such a use, the decided to use the best tool they had to get people to use it - they made it part of the OS. That worked, to a degree.

    Now, neither of these are exactly what we're talking about for HP, but they both definitely demonstrate the use of loss leaders in the technology world.

    Will HP do something similar? I don't know, but it's certainly a topic worth discussing without derision; especially on a forum dedicated to devices made by HP.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    HP can't do something different (like offering discounts) because that would make them a failure company.
    True. Discount a supposedly premium product out of the gate, and it will always be the blue light special. Next.

    HP can't do something, anything, similar to what Apple has done (successfully), because after all, the perception is Apple created it all, and HP would just be a "me too" in that case, which would make them fail.
    True again. Let's be candid; this is an iPad world. HP is trying desperately to stay relevant by finding a place in that world. They do not have the wherewithal to forge their own world, so they have to try and live in someone else's. Them's the breaks. Next.

    So, they can't do different, they can't do the same. Seems the only option (for some) around here is that HP will fail.
    Mr. rock, meet Mr. hard place. Sucks to be HP. Next.

    However, I don't think HP sees it that way.
    Oh, but they do. They have been trying to ride Apple's draft since the Pre. HP more directly since the Envy, (appropriately named). Leo wants HP to be cool like Apple. They are so busy trying to be Apple, they have completely forgotten what it means to be HP. Palm lost itself a long time ago.

    So, what is your suggestion on what HP needs to do to succeed - short of ceding the world to Apple, of course (again, don't think that one is going to happen)
    .

    They can follow the path of every other me-too company. They can't stop using Apple products as templates and innovate something new and even more interesting into existence. Or, they could go back to being HP and focus on their core competencies. Sometimes, it is best to just be who you are, like IBM. They are not cool, and no one knows what it is they do. But they are one of the most successful companies to date.

    HP has peer pressure syndrome. They are filled with envy watching someone else in the spotlight and taking the bows. HP wants to be cool and hip. They want to do all the things the cool kids do. Foolishness! You call it ceding the world to Apple. That is the problem right there. iPhones and iPads, and app stores, and media content, etc. is not the world. It is one segment of the tech and entertainment industry.

    It is not infrastructure and backbone and enterprise and corporate hardware/software solutions, etc. Why is HP so unsatisfied with what they are supposed to be good at? Why are looking at Apples lunch instead of enjoying their own? Yes, HP should get out of the stuff they have no successful track-record, core competency, corporate structure, or heart for. Paul T, on Windows Weekly said the same thing of MS. Someone ought to say it about HP.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    ...They can follow the path of every other me-too company. They can't stop using Apple products as templates and innovate something new and even more interesting into existence...
    So, in short, your response is they can't. They should simply cede to Apple. I'm not surprised you feel that way. I think you're going to be disappointed with the outcome. But I have no doubt you (and others) will continue to come to a WebOS oriented forum and proudly proclaim that HP can't succeed, even as they do.

    As you said - next.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    So, in short, your response is they can't. They should simply cede to Apple. I'm not surprised you feel that way. I think you're going to be disappointed with the outcome. But I have no doubt you (and others) will continue to come to a WebOS oriented forum and proudly proclaim that HP can't succeed, even as they do.

    As you said - next.
    You didn't pick the best part of my post for your point. No big deal. HP and Apple are different kinds of companies. There is no reason for HP to be in this particular market. SJ controls Disney and ABC. Will HP try to buy a media company just because Apple is there? Will we see an HPTV set-top box? Will there be an hPod touch? Will they announce hTunes? None of this has anything to do with HP

    So, no, it doesn't make sense for them to be chasing the iPad and iPhone into the consumer electronics space. They are not Sony, Samsung, or Moto. The are more like IBM. That's just not very cool. HP makes a pretty good HP. They will make a lousy Apple.
  20. #80  
    Selling at a hige loss would be bad. But reasonable prices wouldnt 300 for. 16 gig wifi only would be a nice price point, 400 for 32 and 600 for 64. For 3g, same prices if on contract add 200 if off contract. Advertise accesories like crazy. Wireless printers, phones, bt keyboards, cases and then see where that goes. 300 is a nice price and may help bring more people into the picture who arent sure what use they may have for a tablet. Once the tablet gains a lot of market share, the next year it can have more higher end versions and a minor upgrade to this years version at the same price, while offering much more powerfull versions at slighlty higher prices (100 dollars more then previously stated prices) i think too low of a price is bad, but realisically, a tablet is not a neccesity thus overpricing it will just make people look elsewhere. It does need to be equal or lower priced then an ipad.

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