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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    Apple is not famous for giving people what they want. They are famous for being "cool" enough to tell people what they want and the consumers listen.
    Trying to convince people that they want your product is exactly what a company should be doing. It's funny how people state that as if it is a bad thing. Companies usually have an entire department dedicated to just that one task. It also helps if you make a product with lots of things that people want packaged in a way that they actually want to use it.

    Apple is actually famous for figuring out what consumers like and making it easy for them to get to those features. They don't please everyone (no one does). They lie sometimes, just like everyone else. The screw up sometimes, just like everyone else. They copy/leverage/five-finger-discount ideas sometimes, just like everyone else. But they usually package things into some downright solid and usable products and have been pretty consistent with that as of late.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Buying something because one sees that it works is not the same as buying something because it is "the fashion". This is especially true when these people buy the product a second, third, forth (and soon fifth) time. It is especially true when they continue to give it amazing ratings. If you want to keep assuming the success of the product is simply because of fashion, then here, let me get out of your way. Carry on.
    Most of the ordinary people I know with iPhones had never touched one before they bought it. They simply assumed that if it is so popular then it must do what they need. If that's not fashion I clearly don't know what is.

    I don't know anyone who has upgraded from one iPhone to another, in my world people keep their phones for at least a couple of years so it's only the fairly early adopters who are at this point and they are mostly moving on to Android or WP7.

    My Brother in law is a case in point, last summer he wanted to buy new phones for all his family so he got a 3GS for himself, his wife and his son. His daughter was just going off to university and wanted a keyboard so she opted for a blackberry. He didn't do his homework and bought all these on a special deal with a service provided that turned out to have no coverage in their home.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    I don't know anyone who has upgraded from one iPhone to another...
    I know quite a few. Lots of them simply sell the older versions since they retain much of their value to offset the cost of the new. Others pass the old ones down to family members. I've seen it time and time again among just my friends. Those that don't get every version skip a version or two (this is how I am with cell phones as well), but they stick with the brand when it's time to upgrade because they haven't be let down (at least not enough to move on).

    According to the popular opinion, my friends are simply uninformed fashion seekers. I know them well enough to say this is not the case.

    Anyway, we can go on forever with this. Thank you for attempted to answer my question but I'm not convinced by your answer. We've discussed it and I'll just agree to disagree here.
    Last edited by taharka; 01/28/2011 at 07:43 AM. Reason: clarification
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Step One: Release a me-too product that is derivative of the one people really want.

    Step Two: Play pricing games that are confusing to consumers, and scam them with mail-in rebates that are almost impossible to redeem, thus lowering customer satisfaction before the box is opened.

    Step Three: Offer a few updates after initial poor reviews and try to catch up to the product you were chasing in the first place, while it updates regularly.

    Result: Your bargain-basement offering is quickly seen for what it is. Customers feel like cheated beta testers, your pricing games didn't work, the price is slashed to half within the first month, landfill operators dig new holes to accommodate your iKiller turned road kill, FAILURE!

    This is not a prediction; this is yesterday's newspaper. This is what always happens, with few exceptions, to would-be iKillers. It's not even fun to watch the train-wrecks anymore.
    True! But hopefully HP makes the difference. They are not a small player.
    "Patience, use the force, think." Obi-Wan


    Ready to try Preware? Get this first: Preware Homebrew Documentation
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    Apple is not famous for giving people what they want. They are famous for being "cool" enough to tell people what they want and the consumers listen.
    Apple makes amazing products. Anyone who says they don't obviously has not used an Apple product. Sure, they are not perfect, but they do MAKE some great products.

    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    I know quite a few. Lots of them simply sell the older versions since they retain much of their value to offset the cost of the new. Others pass the old ones down to family members. I've seen it time and time again among just my friends. Those that don't get every version skip a version or two (this is how I am with cell phones as well), but they stick with the brand when it's time to upgrade because they haven't be let down (at least not enough to move on).

    According to the popular opinion, my friends are simply uninformed fashion seekers. I know them well enough to say this is not the case.

    Anyway, we can go on forever with this. Thank you for attempted to answer my question but I'm not convinced by your answer. We've discussed it and I'll just agree to disagree here.
    What he is trying to say is there are a lot of people who bought the iPhone because they assumed it was good. He is not saying that every iPhone user did this. And you can not say every iPhone user read reviews, used the product and actually did some digging before they bought it. All this guy is trying to say is that some of the iPhone users who did that. My mom wants an iPhone. Why does she want an iPhone? Because she has been told it's a great phone. Because she has been told it's easy.

    However, that is not a bad thing (not sure if andyhurley meant it as one or not). Because most of the users who bought the iPhone or who will buy the iPhone because they were told its a good product -- guess what they found out? It is a good product and that it is easy. It would be a bad thing if they bought it and it was crap. Like most people who buy Windows computers (LOL jk jk).
  6. #46  
    The only reason to sell the Palm Pad as a loss leader would be if there were lots of connected devices that would greatly benefit from the Palm Pad (ex. printers, smartphones, etc.) already being in the household. I don't know if the Palm Pad will be that device, but it would be nice if it was.


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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    What he is trying to say is there are a lot of people who bought the iPhone because they assumed it was good. He is not saying that every iPhone user did this. And you can not say every iPhone user read reviews, used the product and actually did some digging before they bought it. All this guy is trying to say is that some of the iPhone users who did that. My mom wants an iPhone. Why does she want an iPhone? Because she has been told it's a great phone. Because she has been told it's easy.
    Well, I never said "every iPhone user read reviews...". Here is the post that he was responding to:
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    I don't understand the fashion statement argument. I'm sure there are a few that buy a phone for that reason but is it really as widespread as people are making it out to be? <-- Honest question.
    So I started out by saying there are some who buy it to be "cool". His initial response was "it's huge, look around you" then went on to describe how only a select few buy it on merit while the rest of the masses are following a fashion. I simply do not agree with that.

    While fashion may be spread via word of mouth, not all word of mouth advertising is based on fashion. If someone that I trust tells me a product is good and I buy it, that is not following fashion (especially if I had inquire about the product or mentioned needed something that the product happens to provide). In his world, you're either an early adopter or someone who wants to be "de moda".
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    So now that HP is going to become a cool brand like Apple what kind of mobile devices are you guys going to be buying instead of HP. After all, people will just be buying HP products because they are fashionable - without looking at specs or reviews.
    It's too soon for this question. Apparently, you have to wait until the early adopters get in and have moved on. THAT's when the masses will be allowed to follow the fashion. :-) j/k
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    Apple makes amazing products. Anyone who says they don't obviously has not used an Apple product. Sure, they are not perfect, but they do MAKE some great products.
    I work for a company that forces me to use a mac and gives us iphones.

    I'll admit they make amazing products, in the same way that Lego does. Unfortunately, I can't do enough with, or enjoy using, Legos either.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    So, you're saying that it doesn't count because they weren't really trying?
    "Doesn't count"? Nope, didn't say that. But I will say that pretending there was some major push for the product, and then pretending that push failed is ... well ... pretending.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    All valid selling points. But you have to know there was more to it than that. First, the iPod had proven to be a game-changer in the mp3 player space. It is reasonable to expect the people who made the mp3 player to end all mp3 players, to be able to add a phone without screwing it up. That is not a fashion statement; that is what happens when people are blown away by your previous product.

    Also, the iPhone brought the consumer a phone experience that simply didn't exist before. To deny that is just silly gamesmanship. When people saw the iPhone for the first time, they lined up because it was awesome. The rest of the industry is still trying to reproduce it. What has any of that to do with fashion. There were, and are excellent reasons the average person wants an iPhone/iPad. You just want to pretend there are no good reasons. Shame, shame, shame.
    I think if there's some "pretending" going on, it's statements like the one in bold. Which part "simply didn't exist before"? Name one.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Trying to convince people that they want your product is exactly what a company should be doing. It's funny how people state that as if it is a bad thing. Companies usually have an entire department dedicated to just that one task. It also helps if you make a product with lots of things that people want packaged in a way that they actually want to use it.

    Apple is actually famous for figuring out what consumers like and making it easy for them to get to those features. They don't please everyone (no one does). They lie sometimes, just like everyone else. The screw up sometimes, just like everyone else. They copy/leverage/five-finger-discount ideas sometimes, just like everyone else. But they usually package things into some downright solid and usable products and have been pretty consistent with that as of late.
    I agree with the first paragraph.

    Sorry, the second, not so much. Convince me that customer really want to bring their phone in for repair, only to have phillips screws replaced with "tamper proof" screws so that no one but Apple (and their authorized repair centers) can open it.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    So now that HP is going to become a cool brand like Apple what kind of mobile devices are you guys going to be buying instead of HP. After all, people will just be buying HP products because they are fashionable - without looking at specs or reviews.
    Personally, I'm hoping they produce something that is cool, so the cool-followers can follow it, and is still so technologically superior that the other devices start copying features.

    They got the second part down already. If they can improve it, and add the "cool" factor, maybe they can get folks from both groups on board.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Buying something because one sees that it works is not the same as buying something because it is "the fashion". This is especially true when these people buy the product a second, third, forth (and soon fifth) time. It is especially true when they continue to give it amazing ratings. If you want to keep assuming the success of the product is simply because of fashion, then here, let me get out of your way. Carry on.
    In fact, this attitude, if held at the manufacturing level, is what keeps HP and other manufacturers (and Palm, in the later years) in a hole.

    Having a bit of "awesome tech" or a cool feature here or there, does not a product experience make.

    but the companies that think it does? fail.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I agree with the first paragraph.

    Sorry, the second, not so much. Convince me that customer really want to bring their phone in for repair, only to have phillips screws replaced with "tamper proof" screws so that no one but Apple (and their authorized repair centers) can open it.
    Of course they don't want to. But when repairs are needed, there is no better experience then Apple customer support. None.

    I can't name a single electronic manufacturer I haven't want to annihilate when I've had a problem, including Palm. But I walk away from from an Apple support call or a visit completely pleased.

    While the repair is not necessarily wanted, the experience makes it tolerable or even better.
  16. #56  
    The Palm Pad being a "loss leader" or being sold at low prices to drive up customers is counterproductive.

    HP will be marketing webOS products as better than Apple products, not a bunch of cheap knock offs for the people that can't afford a good tablet. So long as HP markets the Palm Pad well, and the Palm Pad has the essentials, it will do well.
    Last edited by EvilKell; 01/28/2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Grammar change
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    Of course they don't want to. But when repairs are needed, there is no better experience then Apple customer support. None.

    I can't name a single electronic manufacturer I haven't want to annihilate when I've had a problem, including Palm. But I walk away from from an Apple support call or a visit completely pleased.

    While the repair is not necessarily wanted, the experience makes it tolerable or even better.
    And having the Apple support available fixes that problem.

    Apple forcing everyone to only avail themselves to Apple resources does not.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I agree with the first paragraph.

    Sorry, the second, not so much. Convince me that customer really want to bring their phone in for repair, only to have phillips screws replaced with "tamper proof" screws so that no one but Apple (and their authorized repair centers) can open it.
    You disagree with the second paragraph by giving an example of a shortcoming. But the second paragraph states that there exist shortcomings. Do you perhaps disagree with just the first sentence of the second paragraph with no regards to the context?

    The point was that they do a bang up job but they have issues (just like everyone else). Saying that someone has a high batting average is not the same as saying they are perfect. So pointing out a strike-out here and there does not negate the fact that said person has a high batting average.

    I'm not being funny here. I honestly don't understand what it is you are disagreeing with.
  19.    #59  
    Wow I opened up a can of worms here with the whole technology and fashion thing here!

    But I just want to make one thing clear, I am not saying everyone buys Apple products because they are fashionable but many do. I agree Apple make great products. I'm also not saying that HP slashing price is the only way they can differentiate from Apple but it is one and its a biggie!

    Brand image matters one heck of a lot and you either got it or you aint and at the moment HP are not even close to having the Kudos that the little shiny Apple gives you. I can tell I have no chance of convincing people how much image matters to a brand but luckily Mr Apotheker must have been reading my thread (ahaha) as he backed me up in the interview with the BBC by saying;

    "I hope one day people will say 'this is as cool as HP', not 'as cool as Apple'."

    Cheerz Leo, Bff's yeah!?
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    You disagree with the second paragraph by giving an example of a shortcoming. But the second paragraph states that there exist shortcomings. Do you perhaps disagree with just the first sentence of the second paragraph with no regards to the context?
    ...
    I'm not being funny here. I honestly don't understand what it is you are disagreeing with.
    The first part of that paragraph; but to me, that's major. Call me a bit of an anarchist, but I'm not a big fan of the "benevolent dictatorship" syle of control (whether it be technology or politics). I don't want one entity controlling the thing(s) I own; and Apple is notorious for wanting complete control.

    I've been taking cars in our family to the same tire store for 12 years. They've done a bang up job. The only tire I've touched in all of that time were my motorcycle tires (they don't do MC tires there).

    However, the first time I take a car in for new tires, and they return it to me with a lock on the wheel devised so only they can change my tires - I'm getting my money back and going elsewhere.

    That track record is a large part of why I have never purchased an Apple product for my own use (I bought one of the girls an iPod once - it was what she wanted and I'm an easy touch).

    In the case I mentiioned, and there are others, Apple ignored what the customer base wanted, and implemented what they wanted, simply so they can maintain control.
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