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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I think they just got done doing that - the HP Slate. Running Windows 7 and being so compact it probably is worth $800 and I don't think it compares much to the iPad. I think the problem is that few people felt they needed anything like this. However, if you needed to run Windows 7 on a slate it was a pretty decent implementation.
    It would have sold like hotcakes if they'd only thought to put a shiny Apple logo on it.
  2.    #22  
    I havent said that the majority of people buy them for that reason but a hell of a lot do. Its always been that way just look at the dumb Versace and Armani phones. Apple as a brand is a fashionable and some people buy there products based on this.

    Do you think Apple would spend millions on creating the brans image they do if no one cares about the brand??

    I was not back pedaling on Apple in the slightest I have not really said anything negative about the brand and I said HP CAN match Applecare not that they do. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

    Im just discussing ideas about how HP can increase their market-share. No one in their right mind here can argue that HP dont need a radical plan to get the device in peoples hands because HP's previous strategy in terms of sales has been a complete and utter failure, and the iPad is the benchmark it had to beat.
  3. #23  
    When cellphones emerged, they were more a business device, particularly smartphones. Palm competed well once that market matured. RIMs Blackberry added seamless access to corporate Outlook and really took over the corporate market.

    However, something has changed.

    Smartphones are now being driven by the consumer market. iPhone brought in smartphone users for entertainment and not productivity. Palm/RIM own the productivity segment. Now with pricepoints decreasing, consumers are going to drive the smartphone market.

    We don't yet have a corporate tablet yet. iPad has needed to do it all, but is lacking. Given HPs focus, they could own the corporate tablet space IF:

    • they create and release a compelling tablet before the Blackberry Playbook takes hold
    • the pad is a compelling product on its own and doesn't require a WebOS phone to be a productivity workhorse.


    That's tough. One way to do it is to under-price your competitors for enough time to gain a good toehold. Bundle with other HP products for corporate customers. Apple is unlikely to join a price war because they aren't worried about losing their position anytime soon. RIM might follow suit, but that would be a fair fight. The key is getting a toehold for WebOS.

    If they can't win with this corporate-facing strategy, they have the tougher job of winning from a consumer-facing strategy. Then they have Apple and Google to compete with directly AND productivity is not the competing ground. Consumers buy because of the "experience." Apple does this well, Palm hasn't. Google leveraged it's experience and breadth in other areas to sell a pretty substandard OS, but they've got market share and good price-points now.

    I'm not hopeful, but do want Palm to succeed within HP. I don't think the consumer market is winnable directly. I think they need to leverage HPs corporate footprint and make the most productive device corporations want to get to employees as part of a corporate ecosystem that interfaces with consumers personal ecosystem.

    I think this is going to take a pretty compelling cloud-based synchronization and integration system. Otherwise, WebOS will be a cool OS on devices that look and feel virtually the same as everything else on the market. In that case Google wins in the short run with Apple laughing all the way to the bank in second place market share on smartphones, tablets and eventually the sweetest game console you've ever seen.
  4. cgk
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    #24  
    Palm/RIM own the productivity segment.
    Say what? RIM yeah, Palm no. Now you could make an argument that Palm OS as a legacy OS might still have some hardcore fans in the US but Web OS? Naw, hell it *appears* that going forward WebOs 2.0 profiles (by design) will not even sync calendar data more than three months into the future, relegating the PIM function on WebOS devices to little more than a toy.
  5. #25  
    In post 24, I suggested that HP was taking the me-too rout. I am in the process of listening to the most recent Palmcast. I am stunned at how candid the guys are about this point. They have commented many times about how what they have seen of the TouchPad is just an iPad with a glossy back. HP is doing everything they can within the legal limits to ape the iPad. That's too bad. That means price, and some magical new service, will be the only differentiators.
  6. #26  
    OP is correct that new entries to the market like webos on a tablet need something to differentiates.
    And while being cheaper or even push the platform with a lossleader is always an option - it's not always the best one. Besides the loosing of money - being the cheapish option can be harmful to the brand. People like to pay less - but they also tend to perceive cheaper as less quality. Humans are weird. ;-)

    Furthermore HPalm already has differentiating features - even if you want to discount multi-tasking and a USB port - Flash will be a big advantage - and the IPad doesn't offer that. That's a lot of web content that will be availabe on a webos tablet but not the IPad.

    I'm personally not a big fan of the whole Flash thing - but there's no denying that a lot of web sites don't work well or not at all without Flash.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    I don't understand the fashion statement argument. I'm sure there are a few that buy a phone for that reason but is it really as widespread as people are making it out to be? <-- Honest question.

    My issue with it is that I don't see people buying iPhones and stopping there. The line up for it...every year. They get upset when told they don't qualify for deep discounts on the latest version. They buy apps. They buy music. They buy other Apple products. They fully invest into the ecosystem. In the end, they give the iPhone one of the highest customer satisfaction rating for a consumer product and they do it year after year. That doesn't sound like the majority simply buy the product as a fashion statement to me. Sounds like it's a really solid product.
    I would agree with your conclusion except for one glaring fact.

    There was the same demand for iPhone (people lining up by the thousands) when there were no apps or other products. The selling point seemed to be, it's an iPod and a phone, and it's from Apple.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Say what? RIM yeah, Palm no. Now you could make an argument that Palm OS as a legacy OS might still have some hardcore fans in the US but Web OS? Naw, hell it *appears* that going forward WebOs 2.0 profiles (by design) will not even sync calendar data more than three months into the future, relegating the PIM function on WebOS devices to little more than a toy.
    Totally unconfirmed, totally an opinion, totally overblown.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I would agree with your conclusion except for one glaring fact.

    There was the same demand for iPhone (people lining up by the thousands) when there were no apps or other products. The selling point seemed to be, it's an iPod and a phone, and it's from Apple.
    All valid selling points. But you have to know there was more to it than that. First, the iPod had proven to be a game-changer in the mp3 player space. It is reasonable to expect the people who made the mp3 player to end all mp3 players, to be able to add a phone without screwing it up. That is not a fashion statement; that is what happens when people are blown away by your previous product.

    Also, the iPhone brought the consumer a phone experience that simply didn't exist before. To deny that is just silly gamesmanship. When people saw the iPhone for the first time, they lined up because it was awesome. The rest of the industry is still trying to reproduce it. What has any of that to do with fashion. There were, and are excellent reasons the average person wants an iPhone/iPad. You just want to pretend there are no good reasons. Shame, shame, shame.
  10. #30  
    Marketing Plan

    Step One - Release a product that is equal or better than the competition and establish an appropriate market value. (with reviews that make it a desirable choice).

    Step Two - For a limited time, offer a rebate that allows it to be sold for less than the competition. (Thereby gaining market share).

    Step Three - Continue to improve and stay one step ahead, by keeping the product fresh an offering more than is expected.

    Result - Winner!
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by vza33 View Post
    Marketing Plan

    Step One - Release a product that is equal or better than the competition and establish an appropriate market value. (with reviews that make it a desirable choice).

    Step Two - For a limited time, offer a rebate that allows it to be sold for less than the competition. (Thereby gaining market share).

    Step Three - Continue to improve and stay one step ahead, by keeping the product fresh an offering more than is expected.

    Result - Winner!
    They used to be good at the first one and need to get back to it.

    Sent from my eVo
    Sent from my favorite gadget!
  12. #32  
    I believe hps goal for webos is consumers which means the tablet needs to be affordable otherwise it just wont sell to the joes who buy ipads. 400 dollars for 16gig and up depending on size, but 800 for the 16 gig? Forget it. Not worth it. It doesnt have the user base, apps, or tenior to make it a mass consumer product and it doing bad would kill webos. Webos is the most innovative os but it needs users. So i dont see a high price on this
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    I don't understand the fashion statement argument. I'm sure there are a few that buy a phone for that reason but is it really as widespread as people are making it out to be? <-- Honest question.
    It's huge, just look around you.

    Back in the day when the iPhone launched a lot of my tech-savvy colleages (who already had smartphones) went out and got one because Apple was cool and it was sure to be good (note, this was before it had lauched so they hadn't actually seen and used one yet).

    Now, several years on, the iPhone was a massive success and most of those tech-savvy colleages have moved on to Android devices of one sort or another. Meanwhile, every Tom, **** and Harry has got themselves an iPhone because it's what everyone has and as a result the iPhone continues to be a big success. In fact, most of those buyers are not even aware of non-Apple alternatives because they are not immersed in the tech, they have not heard of Android or webOS and so to them smartphones ARE iPhones.

    Sure, Apple makes good products with good service and a great ecosystem but there a plenty of areas for improvement. They are not the best in every area and they are not on the leading edge of new ideas but their massive popular appeal means they will continue to do well.

    HP needs to appeal on some other level if they are to get a foot in and simply making it cheaper will not do that. In the UK at least, the uninformed masses will see a cheaper price as a sign of an inferior product and stick with the company they know and trust.
  14. #34  
    I love the irony of a post that admits people stick to a brand that they know and trust but are fashionistas if that brand happens to be Apple.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    I love the irony of a post that admits people stick to a brand that they know and trust but are fashionistas if that brand happens to be Apple.
    You misread what I said.

    The early adopters were going for the brand they know, the masses that are keeping it going are doing so because that is the fashion. It's exactly the same as the teens not wanting a cheaper imitation pair of Converse. You can't compete on price alone when there is a fashion issue at stake.

    In this country (not sure about elsewhere) a cheaper product is almost universally assumed to be inferior. Only those that can't afford the 'real thing' or the truely well informed will go for it.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    You misread what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    The early adopters were going for the brand they know, the masses that are keeping it going are doing so because that is the fashion.
    Yep. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is a solid product, or that it gives users what they want, or that it has some of the best satisfaction numbers for a consumer product, or that the company that produced it has a pretty good track record. No, it's because it "is the fashion".

    Forgive me, it seems your post was not ironic at all.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Forgive me, it seems your post was not ironic at all.
    I think you have a perverted sense of what irony is but I'll put that down to cultural differernces.

    I never said the Apple products weren't good, in fact I said they were. Things don't become fashionable without having something going for them.

    All I am trying to say is that ordinary, uniformed, people buy the brands they see others buying using a logic that says that all those people can't be wrong. These people are following a fashion (not setting one which is what fashionistas do) and allowing others to take all the pains of being early adopters.

    It is very hard for any product to break that cycle unless it has something new and unique going for it which is understandable to the average man in the street. Price can't normally be that point as people will just assume that it must be inferior if it is significantly cheaper.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    All I am trying to say is that ordinary, uniformed, people buy the brands they see others buying using a logic that says that all those people can't be wrong. These people are following a fashion..
    Buying something because one sees that it works is not the same as buying something because it is "the fashion". This is especially true when these people buy the product a second, third, forth (and soon fifth) time. It is especially true when they continue to give it amazing ratings. If you want to keep assuming the success of the product is simply because of fashion, then here, let me get out of your way. Carry on.
  19. #39  
    Apple is not famous for giving people what they want. They are famous for being "cool" enough to tell people what they want and the consumers listen.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by vza33 View Post
    Marketing Plan

    Step One - Release a product that is equal or better than the competition and establish an appropriate market value. (with reviews that make it a desirable choice).

    Step Two - For a limited time, offer a rebate that allows it to be sold for less than the competition. (Thereby gaining market share).

    Step Three - Continue to improve and stay one step ahead, by keeping the product fresh an offering more than is expected.

    Result - Winner!
    Step One: Release a me-too product that is derivative of the one people really want.

    Step Two: Play pricing games that are confusing to consumers, and scam them with mail-in rebates that are almost impossible to redeem, thus lowering customer satisfaction before the box is opened.

    Step Three: Offer a few updates after initial poor reviews and try to catch up to the product you were chasing in the first place, while it updates regularly.

    Result: Your bargain-basement offering is quickly seen for what it is. Customers feel like cheated beta testers, your pricing games didn't work, the price is slashed to half within the first month, landfill operators dig new holes to accommodate your iKiller turned road kill, FAILURE!

    This is not a prediction; this is yesterday's newspaper. This is what always happens, with few exceptions, to would-be iKillers. It's not even fun to watch the train-wrecks anymore.
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