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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    I don't know where you are getting your information from, but that is not correct. You can go back and view the FCC documents for the original Touchstone and find that it communicates with the phone at 3.1 MHz. You will also find that every Touchstone-capable phone filed since then includes the 3.1 MHz band. Even the Touchpad and its new Touchstone use 3.1 MHz. The 6 MHz band mentioned in the Touchstone Audio Dock has never appeared until now.



    It's silly to assume that it would use Bluetooth. It would require that the user to pair the phone with the dock, and it would require them to have the BT radio turned on in order to use this new functionality. Also the facts are against you. If the 6 MHz band is not being used for audio transmission, and we already know the 3.1 MHz is used for regular TS communication, then what is the brand new 6 MHz band for?
    OK, I was wrong about the 1st gen TS. It does RECEIVE at 3.1 Mhz (para 2 section 5.1 https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/eas/GetApp...tml?id=1228578 ) from a Pre so it can stop charging a full battery.

    But for sharing anything else the TS needs to talk back. It cannot use the same 3.1Mhz frequency as it will likely cause havoc with a charging Pre or Pre2. So likely the newer 6Mhz is used for other communication.


    As for not not using Bluetooth (or any other technology already available v.s new tech to reinvent the wheel), it would be very silly indeed. TTS already uses Bluetooth as the transmission medium and pairing has to take place. Once, but is semi automated. the user only has to say Yes rather than type a pin in two devices. That point is moot.

    I understand that we need to think outside the box and certainly HP needs to do this to be innovative. But in the absence of information to the contrary it would be silly to reinvent the wheel just for the sake of reinventing it. And as I said, 6Mhz is a very odd choice for transmitting music. If used in analogue mode it would be jammed full of interference, and to do it digitally would be rather expensive to make the chips for relatively small production runs. Even at very low power levels it may not get clearance for various countries' FCC equivalents. HP cannot change the laws of physics, and some things just do not make sense. So unless HP plans to use WiFi for music transmission, or use 3.5mm jack in the TS, then Bluetooth is the way to go. As it has done with TTS and Android will be using along with NFC.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Amohazab View Post
    But for sharing anything else the TS needs to talk back. It cannot use the same 3.1Mhz frequency as it will likely cause havoc with a charging Pre or Pre2. So likely the newer 6Mhz is used for other communication.
    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-veer...ml#post2983468

    3.1 MHz is used to send information to the Touchstone from the phone, while 118.5 khz (perhaps this is your 120 khz) is used to send information from the Touchstone to the phone. This is all present in the filing for the original Touchstone invented by Palm.

    You are thinking about it in the wrong way. This is an inductive coupling we are talking about here. So while there is a very small air gap between the two devices, it works nearly the same as a contact-to-contact coupling, so there is no reason to "reinvent the wheel" as you say. This is also why it doesn't matter that the frequencies are so low. It doesn't need to penetrate through walls, travel 30 feet, or any of that.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-veer...ml#post2983468

    3.1 MHz is used to send information to the Touchstone from the phone, while 118.5 khz (perhaps this is your 120 khz) is used to send information from the Touchstone to the phone. This is all present in the filing for the original Touchstone invented by Palm.
    Yes, 118.5. Your link is the same as I used but to a different site. So I take it you agree the current TS does not transmit information (and we know HP has said new TS technology includes location/identification transmission to the phone).

    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-veer...ml#post2983468
    You are thinking about it in the wrong way. This is an inductive coupling we are talking about here. So while there is a very small air gap between the two devices, it works nearly the same as a contact-to-contact coupling, so there is no reason to "reinvent the wheel" as you say. This is also why it doesn't matter that the frequencies are so low. It doesn't need to penetrate through walls, travel 30 feet, or any of that.
    Lower frequency=easier penetration through walls, etc, and longer travel. My main issue is that the TS will be prone to external interference. Receiving static info about the state of a battery is one thing, and receiving music is altogether something else. The alternative is pump up the transmitting power, which goes back to the previous issue again.

    And anyhow, if HP is already using Bluetooth with TTS, then it just makes sense that they continue doing the same thing for other products using similar technology.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Amohazab View Post
    Yes, 118.5. Your link is the same as I used but to a different site. So I take it you agree the current TS does not transmit information (and we know HP has said new TS technology includes location/identification transmission to the phone).
    The red-underlined text in the FCC document I linked to specifically says:

    The base [the Touchstone] transmits on a frequency of 118.5 khz and receives on a frequency of approximately 3.1 MHz.
    The whole point of that other thread was to determine if the original Palm TS would work with the new location awareness feature that was supposed to be in the new devices, since it is clear the old TS can both send and receive data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amohazab View Post
    And anyhow, if HP is already using Bluetooth with TTS, then it just makes sense that they continue doing the same thing for other products using similar technology.
    There is no inductive coupling between the Pre 3 and the Touchpad, so of course some other form of wireless communication must be used for data.

    Anyway I am confident that my assumptions are correct. We will just have to wait and see.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    The red-underlined text in the FCC document I linked to specifically says:



    The whole point of that other thread was to determine if the original Palm TS would work with the new location awareness feature that was supposed to be in the new devices, since it is clear the old TS can both send and receive data.



    There is no inductive coupling between the Pre 3 and the Touchpad, so of course some other form of wireless communication must be used for data.

    Anyway I am confident that my assumptions are correct. We will just have to wait and see.
    Far too many assumptions by both of us here. So I add another (but a reasonable) one: The 118.5Khz transmission is what is used to charge up the battery. Nothing to do with transmitting data (although I am sure it can indeed transmit data in theory).

    The other advantage of using BT is that you can take your pre off the base and you will not loose music playback through external speakers. And, the base can be used by non HP phones as well, just not as a charger, though a little USB out on it can take care of that too, hence broadening its appeal.
  6. #26  
    [QUOTE=Amohazab;3068704
    And, the base can be used by non HP phones as well, just not as a charger.[/QUOTE]

    Doubt they will do this. Sure the TouchPad takes calls and texts over bluetooth but you don't see any non-WebOS phones working with it.

    I'll bet money that if, IF, the new touchstone audio dock allows you to continue play music off the dock (and does indeed use bluetooth), it will still require you to place your phone on the dock first (at least once). Hence it would bluetooth sync not with a button, but by the touchstone communication on whichever frequency, therefore eliminating the possibility of using non-WebOS phones with it.

    (Notice how I say non-webos and not non-hp. Here's to hoping HP gets some WebOS action on HTC or Samsung)
    1 ghz Sprint Pre-
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Amohazab View Post
    And, the base can be used by non HP phones as well, just not as a charger, though a little USB out on it can take care of that too, hence broadening its appeal.
    I don't think HP would be interested in making their Touchstone work with other devices. It can only charge webOS devices, so it already is device-specific. No one without a webOS phone is going to buy a Touchstone just for the audio capabilities. There are already adapters for that that don't work as chargers for webOS phones.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    BTW there is no Touchstone 2. The part number in the letter quoted above, 157-10123-00, is Palm's part number for the Touchstone.
    i'm with you on most points. although it would be weird for HP to keep the part number for the touchstones when clearly there's a difference...maybe not in form or fit but definitely function.

    the way i understood it, the original Palm TS (the one that got released with the original pre minus some two years ago) doesn't have the 3.1 freq for identification. it just does charging. i thought the 3.1 identification freq was added to the new touchstones to enable the auto-exhibition feature where the phone will know which dock it's on and display the appropriate exhibition mode application (clock in the bedroom charger and photo scroll on the kitchen one).
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    I don't think HP would be interested in making their Touchstone work with other devices. It can only charge webOS devices, so it already is device-specific. No one without a webOS phone is going to buy a Touchstone just for the audio capabilities. There are already adapters for that that don't work as chargers for webOS phones.
    exactly....remember the big wigs throwing the word "ecosystem" around. i'm sure this is all part of it. it would be nice to be able to use that 6 MHz freq for video as well...think Touchstone Video Dock which would have outs to TVs and projectors .
  10. #30  
    I still think it'll be Bluetooth based.

    My guess:

    A2DP to either 3.5" jack or speakers.

    The 6MHz frequency used for a form of Touch-to-Share that automatically pairs the phone to the dock when the phone is placed in the dock. Something similar was demonstrated when the Pre 3 was being paired to the Touchpad initially in one of those demos from around the Feb 9th event.

    I could be wrong, but I agree that there's absolutely no reason for HP to reinvent the wheel here.
  11. #31  
    One slight hiccup is 8GB minus emails, attachments, apps is pretty small for music.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by wencyjr View Post
    the way i understood it, the original Palm TS (the one that got released with the original pre minus some two years ago) doesn't have the 3.1 freq for identification.
    It does indeed have the 3.1 MHz band. If you click on this link and look at the document that is shown, that is from the FCC filing for the original Palm Touchstone.

    There was much disagreement in that thread as well, about whether or not the original Touchstone would be capable of the new location awareness feature. Some did not believe the original Touchstone would be able to communicate any information to the phone, and therefore would be unable to tell the phone any information that would help it identify its location. However the document shown seems to contradict that assumption.

    To my knowledge, that question of whether or not the original Touchstone will work with location awareness has yet to be adequately answered.

    But we do know that there are currently only two types of Touchstone in existence: The original Palm Touchstone, and the Touchpad Touchstone. The Audio Touchstone will be the third.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    The 6MHz frequency used for a form of Touch-to-Share that automatically pairs the phone to the dock when the phone is placed in the dock. Something similar was demonstrated when the Pre 3 was being paired to the Touchpad initially in one of those demos from around the Feb 9th event.
    If that were true, the 6 MHz band would have to appear in the FCC filings for the Touchpad and the Touchpad Touchstone. It does not. Whatever this 6 MHz band is for, it is specifically tied to the Audio Touchstone.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  13.    #33  
    More info from the FCC document. It appears that I was correct in assuming that the Audio Touchstone would have a 3.5 mm audio jack on it. Listed in the test equipment for the new Touchstone are a set of Altec FX3022 speakers and a set of headphones. There are also these diagrams:



    Regarding the 6MHz speculation, there is this to consider. In the chart that discloses all of the frequencies used by the equipment being tested, Bluetooth frequencies are not included with the Audio Touchstone, only 118.5kHz, 3.1 MHz and 6 MHz.



    IMO this effectively puts to rest any further speculation that the audio will be transmitted via Bluetooth.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    More info from the FCC document. It appears that I was correct in assuming that the Audio Touchstone would have a 3.5 mm audio jack on it. Listed in the test equipment for the new Touchstone are a set of Altec FX3022 speakers and a set of headphones. There are also these diagrams:



    Regarding the 6MHz speculation, there is this to consider. In the chart that discloses all of the frequencies used by the equipment being tested, Bluetooth frequencies are not included with the Audio Touchstone, only 118.5kHz, 3.1 MHz and 6 MHz.



    IMO this effectively puts to rest any further speculation that the audio will be transmitted via Bluetooth.
    Is Audio Touchstone certified yet? I can't find the filing for it.

    And here's another theory on why they didn't test Bluetooth: it's tested already in the previous report. If you think about it, they are still separate systems really. the 6 MHz subsystem to trigger the connection, and establish a Bluetooth connection afterwards.

    I would expect to see a further report on the Touchstone dock itself and see the Bluetooth frequencies there.
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  15.    #35  
    I have not seen a separate filing for the Audio Touchstone yet. However, there may not be one. The filing for the original Touchstone (O8F-TST1) can only be found by searching for the FCC filings for the Pre (O8F-CABC1) and Pixi (O8F-PABC1) Touchstone back covers. Apparently the FCC does not test chargers separately from the equipment they are to charge. It is quite likely that, since Touchstone capability is built in to the Pre 3, this is the only mention of the Audio Touchstone we will see from the FCC.

    Scratch that. I did find it, but only when searching date ranges. Searching for O8F-TST1 directly comes up with nothing for some reason. So we may indeed see a filing for the Audio Touchstone at some point.
    Last edited by Syndil; 08/16/2011 at 02:51 PM.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    I have not seen a separate filing for the Audio Touchstone yet. However, there may not be one. The filing for the original Touchstone (O8F-TST1) can only be found by searching for the FCC filings for the Pre (O8F-CABC1) and Pixi (O8F-PABC1) Touchstone back covers. Apparently the FCC does not test chargers separately from the equipment they are to charge. It is quite likely that, since Touchstone capability is built in to the Pre 3, this is the only mention of the Audio Touchstone we will see from the FCC.

    Scratch that. I did find it, but only when searching date ranges. Searching for O8F-TST1 directly comes up with nothing for some reason. So we may indeed see a filing for the Audio Touchstone at some point.
    Did you put O8F as the Grantee Code and "-TST1" as the device code?

    FCC's search is stupid and you need that dash.

    My point being is, why create a brand new audio system, when they can simply use A2DP? The only difference would be that the older devices without the 6MHz transceiver won't be able to automatically establish the connection and need to do so manually. Why alienate older devices?
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  17.    #37  
    Ah, yes, forgot the dash.

    I don't think they will be creating a brand-new audio system. These inductive coupling systems, from the device's point of view, look pretty much like a serial cable. The device doesn't care that the data is traveling over an air gap, just like it doesn't care that the power it is receiving is being transmitted over an air gap. They aren't going to have to invent new codecs and whatnot to get the data to move through the inductive coupling. As long as the data does not exceed the bandwidth of the connection, they can use whatever they want, just as if it were a physical wired connection. It could be that the phone will send the audio stream to the Audio Touchstone via raw binary data, with a DAC (Beats branded, perhaps?) in the Touchstone deciphering it and spitting it out the 3.5mm jack.

    I think the reason for avoiding a Bluetooth connection is to enhance the user experience. If the stream is going straight through the inductive coupling, then getting audio to come out the Touchstone requires no software intervention. It would work as simply as plugging a set of headphones into the headphone jack.

    And perhaps the biggest reason to assume that the stream will not be via A2DP is that, if the phone sees that it is attached to an A2DP device, it might think that it is attached to an A2DP headset. What would happen if you were in the middle of a call using a stereo Bluetooth headset on your Pre 3, and then you set it on the Audio Touchstone?
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  18. #38  
    if you were going to use a2dp wouldn't you just pair with the phone direcly? Using the stereo jack would be for people wth a set of speakers sitting on their desk.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post

    IMO this effectively puts to rest any further speculation that the audio will be transmitted via Bluetooth.
    The diagram is about additional testing of the Pre3, which according to your original post in this thread already had the 6Mhz built-in. By the same token therefore, we could assume that the TP also has a 6Mhz transmitter built in. (In fact given the closeness of the frequencies- 3&6Mhz, they probably use the same coil arrangement and transmitter module). Not sure if it tests the overall system functionality.

    But your point about the system using the 6Mhz just as a pair of wires (perhaps with a DAC codec) is also interesting - if they can get the EM shielding right. Would still prefer the BT route though. as it involves less additional modules and programming and more compatability and probably cheaper overall.
    Last edited by Amohazab; 08/16/2011 at 03:37 PM.
  20.    #40  
    I see what you're getting at. Since we do know the Pre 3 must have had 6 MHz capability from the start, and since we have not seen it until now, we must also assume that the FCC will not disclose or test any capabilities of a device that are incapable of being used by the end-user. Otherwise we would have seen the 6 MHz in the original filing for the Pre 3. We are only seeing it now with the introduction of the Audio Touchstone.

    If the 6 MHz band does eventually show up on the Touchpad, it will be with the assumption that there is also going to be an Audio Touchstone specifically for the Touchpad.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
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