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  1. #61  
    At the risk of sounding logical, what exactly has changed in the smartphone spec arena since the announcement of the Pre3?

    Dual core? Already known about, and still worthless on a smartphone.
    Maybe a 4.5" Screen? Who wants that on a phone, anyway?
    Oh yeah, 3D! Seriously? LOL.
    Wait, I know, a dual 3.5" display! Yeah, that Kyrocera Echo is awesome...
    Aha! LTE phones that drain 30% of your battery in 10 minutes! Sign me up!

    Android phones are still launching with 2.2 Froyo (which is going to look as aged as Cupcake in just a few more months)... We're starting to see just how fragmentation is hurting Android, just as Jobs said it would. Manufacturers are not adopting Gingerbread+ at all, and developers and consumers are getting the shaft as Google starts to try and lock down its OS further.

    Windows Phone 7 appears to be nearly dead, even though M$ will desperately pump money into the OS. No real news from this lineup. I can't see how anything in the Windows market can be commented on in terms of making the Pre3 obsolete.

    iOS. Nothing to report here except the iPhone 5 was delayed several months.
    Last edited by EvilKell; 05/31/2011 at 11:33 AM.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    I think they have actually thrown a lot of resources at webos. Most of results of that haven't even been seen. We're seeing the end of the road of Palm's influence(Veer, Pre3, and Touchpad) and just the very beginning of HP's vision(3.0). Design has been moved to the people who make the Envy. Engineers have been moved to work on cloud development and technology. We haven't seen much of advertsing but that is obviously gonna change real soon with the release of the touchpad and it's celebrity endorsements. It hasn't even been a year since they acquired Palm but I don't think we can be so naive to think what's coming to the market this summer is the completion of HP's vision.
    HP definitely has thrown a lot of money at webOS, and virtually all of it was horribly mishandled. The move to webOS 3.x Enyo before 2.x was complete, and the lack of 2.x moving to legacy devices was a catastrophic fail. There's no way those decisions can be made without a complete lack of understanding of the mobile market, and HP has seemingly made it clear up to now, they simply don't understand the mobile market yet.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by VzwPrePlus View Post
    By the time the Pre 3 is released it will be middle of the pack spec wise at best. HP seems to be making the same errors as Palm despite their deeper pockets.
    I know that to a bunch of tech heads on Precentral specs matter a great deal but to the average smart phone user 1.2 ghz is not going to seem all that different that a phone running dual 1 ghz processors or whatever. Yes are important but in the end it is user experience that is going to build costumer loyalty. As others have siad before, look at the Wii. People were saying the same sort of things they are now saying about the Pre3. "it is too underpowered to succeed, ect". And yet it is the highest selling console of this generation.

    A lot of people are bitter with how things went down with Palm starting with the Pre minus and are passing on that bitterness to HP. I need people to believe at least just a little bit that HP may know what they are doing. Based off of their track record in PCs and printers I'm gonna shut my mouth for a bit and see what they can make happen.

    Is HP trying to set up the Pre 3 to beat the iPhone4? No. What they are trying to do is get their foot in the door by creating a dependable brand.

    Though I know HP is going to throw some advertising dollars at the Pre3 when it is launched, I think HP really is going to be putting its weight behind the Touchpad. That is where they feel they can be most competitive since iPad is really the only player in town with all the Android tablets battling it out to see who can be the prettiest clone. What I think we are going to see is HP doing big numbers on the Touchpad and introducing people to WebOS that way. As we all have done ourselves, they will fall in love with webOS and then move towards the phones, printers, toasters and whatever else is running the OS. Its okay of the Pre3 isn't the top selling phone. The future of WebOS is not on the shoulders of the Pre3, its on the shoulders of the Touchpad. And if Hp does well selling the the Touchpad, then developers will flock to it and us Pre3 users will get to enjoy all those scalable enyo apps on our Pres that were originally made with the Touchpad in mind.

    We all want to see webOS do well but throwing tons of money into advertising isn't always the answer. HP sees this as a marathon not a sprintp. Lets keep that in mind.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    At the risk of sounding logical, what exactly has changed in the smartphone spec arena since the announcement of the Pre3?

    Dual core? Already known about, and still worthless on a smartphone.
    Maybe a 4.5" Screen? Who wants that on a phone, anyway?
    Oh yeah, 3D! Seriously? LOL.
    Wait, I know, a dual 3.5" display! Yeah, that Kyrocera Echo is awesome...
    Aha! LTE phones that drain 30% of your battery in 10 minutes! Sign me up!

    Android phones are still launching with 2.2 Froyo (which is going to look as aged as Cupcake in just a few more months)... We're starting to see just how fragmentation is hurting Android, just as Jobs said it would. Manufacturers are not adopting Gingerbread+ at all, and developers and consumers are getting the shaft as Google starts to try and lock down its OS further.

    Windows Phone 7 appears to be nearly dead, even though M$ will desperately pump money into the OS. No real news from this lineup. I can't see how anything in the Windows market can be commented on in terms of making the Pre3 obsolete.

    iOS. Nothing to report here except the iPhone 5 was delayed several months.
    Flawless. Nothing more to add.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Evorgleb View Post
    We all want to see webOS do well but throwing tons of money into advertising isn't always the answer. HP sees this as a marathon not a sprintp. Lets keep that in mind.
    It's not a marathon, and that's what HP doesn't understand. HP thinks it has time to rebuild webOS by relying on it's PC business. Everybody else in the mobile world seems to know that the next months are critical. A year or two from now is way too late. HP doesn't have a year to grow Enyo. I believe HP is finally starting to understand the situation they're in, though, and it has to be scary.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatBateman View Post
    Flawless. Nothing more to add.
    Thanks. I try to call it as I see it. I'm not going to blow sunshine up anybody's rear, and conversely, I'm not going to bash minor issues.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    HP definitely has thrown a lot of money at webOS, and virtually all of it was horribly mishandled. The move to webOS 3.x Enyo before 2.x was complete, and the lack of 2.x moving to legacy devices was a catastrophic fail. There's no way those decisions can be made without a complete lack of understanding of the mobile market, and HP has seemingly made it clear up to now, they simply don't understand the mobile market yet.
    It's hard to have a catasrophic fail when the OS you bought is listed in the "other OS's" section of graphs. If anything I think they are finding they have a lot of freedom to make the changes they want without causing many ripples to a virtally non-existent userbase. I fully disgaree with you that they do not have the time to work on a long range vision. The smartphone and tablet market are very young. The door isn't closing in the "coming months".
  8. #68  
    Yeah I have a good laugh when I hear about 3D on a phone screen as well. It doesn't even look good on a 50" screen never mind 4".
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    The move to webOS 3.x Enyo before 2.x was complete, and the lack of 2.x moving to legacy devices was a catastrophic fail. .
    That is why I am giving some credence to the 60-90 day timeframe for Pre3, rather than June as we originally thought. If it is 60-90, I assume Palm wants to get 3.0 on the phone and then will pair the larger Pre3 with a new smaller tablet, just as the Veer is paired right now with the TouchPad.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    It's hard to have a catasrophic fail when the OS you bought is listed in the "other OS's" section of graphs. If anything I think they are finding they have a lot of freedom to make the changes they want without causing many ripples to a virtally non-existent userbase. I fully disgaree with you that they do not have the time to work on a long range vision. The smartphone and tablet market are very young. The door isn't closing in the "coming months".
    I believe the mishandling of webOS 2.x and the decision to scrap webOS 2.x in favor of 3.x before 2.x was even released mainstream in concert with the delay in the Pre2, and the slow push to market for the Pre3 and Touchpad cost HP at least 10% market share in 2011. I consider that catastrophic.

    I also disagree with your analysis that the smartphone and tablet market are not yet developed. Tablets are dramatically impacting PC sales, and tablets will easily out pace laptop sales next year. We're talking about hundreds of millions of devices being sold annually until the saturation point. The prime growth in the smart phone market has already passed, and the next 6-12 months will see the prime growth in the tablet market. It will be exceedingly difficult for webOS to gain traction when Android, iOS and Blackberry control 85% of a mature market.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    That is why I am giving some credence to the 60-90 day timeframe for Pre3, rather than June as we originally thought. If it is 60-90, I assume Palm wants to get 3.0 on the phone and then will pair the larger Pre3 with a new smaller tablet, just as the Veer is paired right now with the TouchPad.
    So instead of launching the Pre3 with webOS 2.3 as HP said they would, they're going to scrap that idea and launch it with 3.0? I suppose it's possible, but I don't see it happening. Considering the Touchpad is shipping in the next few days to Wal Mart, and it's already appeared on Best Buy's website, I just don't see another 60-90 days before it's released. I really want to believe webOS could weather yet another major delay, but I don't think it can.

    Now is the best time to strike. Before the new Blackberry devices with good specs hit. Before the iPhone 5 hits. Before the Microsoft/Nokia alliance is able to really bear fruit.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by ratchetjaw View Post
    On paper the atrix should be the baddest phone on the planet. Had one, it aint. The Pre 3 should perform great
    Did you use it before AT&T finally tuned on 3.5G? We know AT&T has no real 4G, but HSPA+ is certainly faster than 3G.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Weaser999 View Post
    Yeah I have a good laugh when I hear about 3D on a phone screen as well. It doesn't even look good on a 50" screen never mind 4".
    I can do 3D on phones with two free crap phones. Just hold them side by side and focus ala magic eye...
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I think the mistake around here was to assume that just because HP has deeper pockets that they would automatically be reaching into them to throw money around for advertising, hardware development, software development, discounts, etc.
    Well I'd think HP would have at least had lots of advertising, since they do this very often on other products.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #75  
    I will officially be carrying it...
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  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    I believe the mishandling of webOS 2.x and the decision to scrap webOS 2.x in favor of 3.x before 2.x was even released mainstream in concert with the delay in the Pre2, and the slow push to market for the Pre3 and Touchpad cost HP at least 10% market share in 2011. I consider that catastrophic.

    I also disagree with your analysis that the smartphone and tablet market are not yet developed. Tablets are dramatically impacting PC sales, and tablets will easily out pace laptop sales next year. We're talking about hundreds of millions of devices being sold annually until the saturation point. The prime growth in the smart phone market has already passed, and the next 6-12 months will see the prime growth in the tablet market. It will be exceedingly difficult for webOS to gain traction when Android, iOS and Blackberry control 85% of a mature market.
    You can throw around imaginary marketing figures all you want but they don't mean anything. HP has had webos for 11 months. They obviously decided to start with a clean slate then be hampered by catering to a marginal customer base. I think that was a smart move for HP even if it was and still is painful for a lot of us around this forum including myself.

    Yes tablets are effecting PC sales which is exactly why HP bought webos. By the beginning of next year HP will have released 1 and possibly 2 tablets, 2-3 smartphones, and webos shipping on PC's and printers. I think this means they should be perfectly placed to carve out their place in the market. That means there will be quite a few webos products on the market over the next 6-12 months which you consider to be the "prime growth" period for the tablet market. I also think you might want to revise your "100's of millions of devices" figure. Back in March before the ipad 2 release, Apple had sold 19 million ipads. Even if you add the android tablets, ipad2, and the Playbook, total tablet sales are probably less than 40 million. Looking at these figures, I don't think tablets will outsell laptops next year but they will outsell netbooks. With predictions that smartphone sales will be larger than PC sales, I think the "prime growth for smartphones" hasn't even started since only around 30% of people use smartphones.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    You can throw around imaginary marketing figures all you want but they don't mean anything. HP has had webos for 11 months. They obviously decided to start with a clean slate then be hampered by catering to a marginal customer base. I think that was a smart move for HP even if it was and still is painful for a lot of us around this forum including myself.

    Yes tablets are effecting PC sales which is exactly why HP bought webos. By the beginning of next year HP will have released 1 and possibly 2 tablets, 2-3 smartphones, and webos shipping on PC's and printers. I think this means they should be perfectly placed to carve out their place in the market. That means there will be quite a few webos products on the market over the next 6-12 months which you consider to be the "prime growth" period for the tablet market. I also think you might want to revise your "100's of millions of devices" figure. Back in March before the ipad 2 release, Apple had sold 19 million ipads. Even if you add the android tablets, ipad2, and the Playbook, total tablet sales are probably less than 40 million. Looking at these figures, I don't think tablets will outsell laptops next year but they will outsell netbooks. With predictions that smartphone sales will be larger than PC sales, I think the "prime growth for smartphones" hasn't even started since only around 30% of people use smartphones.
    I'm not trying to start a fight with you, but I'm also not inclined to agree with really any of your points.

    First off, I don't see any problem with speculating. webOS market share was 5% in July, 2010. It was 2% by the end of 2010. It's under 1% now. Had the Pre2 launched full force in September of October of 2010, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that webOS marketshare would have at least held steady, if not increased. Couple that with the Veer and Pre3 launching earlier this year on webOS 2.x, and it would make a substantial difference in HP's current situation.

    I think everybody can agree that webOS 2.x is not a long term solution, but it was a huge improvement, absolutely huge improvement over webOS 1.4.x. Making the move in the way HP did angered developers (big time), and angered existing users (big time). Enyo is a necessary step, but all the time and resources that HP/Palm put into Enyo would have been much better spent honoring their commitments, and moving ahead with webOS 2.x while creating a better transition period and building out Enyo so it was ready before pulling the plug on Mojo. It should have been webOS 2.x this year, webOS 3.x next year. HP essentially threw away 5-10% market share, momentum, name recognition, and product hype by making their decisions the way they did.

    Well, the problem with the Touchpad is that it's not known if it will be sufficient to immediately replace a laptop, unlike the current Android tablets and iPad2 with their HDMI out options and known document editing software. The Touchpad can't display video onto your TV via HDMI (a mega huge oversight), and I don't recall if it's document editing software will be available initially. These are deal killers for the device when it comes to replacing laptops.

    In regard to hundreds of millions I was combining smartphones and tablets as they really go hand in hand for replacing laptops/netbooks. I wasn't considering just tablets on their own. Tablet sales expectations are generally around 30 million total this year last I checked.

    In regard to the smartphone figure of 31%, that's approaching initial saturation. The number of users who can afford a smartphone in the 18-34 age bracket already have one. Many people in the 35-50 age bracket also have one. The under 18 and over 50 users are going to be sparse because of costs and for the older generations, complexity and resistance to technology. I can't see smartphones eclipsing 50% of mobile users for several years. The boom is over. Making up 5% or 10% of market share now will be very hard. That's market share HP threw away with arrogance.

    These are just my opinions, but please don't assume I formed these opinions based on nothing.
  18. #78  
    "Making the move in the way HP did angered developers (big time), and angered existing users (big time)."

    Agreed, (big time).


    "The number of users who can afford a smartphone in the 18-34 age bracket already have one. "

    Very interesting opinion. It would be good to see some research to back this up though, otherwise hard to judge between this and other assertions and we're just wasting electrons debating this back and forth.

    "Had the Pre2 launched full force in September of October of 2010..."
    I'm not sure why VZW pulled back on the Pre2 and why Sprint passed on it as well and whether it can be attributed totally to HP working on 3.0 or whether the carriers determined that webOS lost momentum already back in spring of 2010 and needed much more to reboot or some other reason.

    "The Touchpad can't display video onto your TV via HDMI (a mega huge oversight)"

    Agreed but could be a market right now for people who don't need HDMI as the tablet is all about portability and plenty of time by holiday season to get another tablet version with HDMI.

    "I'm not trying to start a fight with you, but I'm also not inclined to agree with really any of your points."

    If there is an EvilKell there must be a GoodKell around somewhere for balance. I hope she is drawn out of hiding by this as I would like to see the fight between you two.

    All kidding aside, the TouchPad is about to be released so litigating the past is less pertinent right now than seeing what HP's current hand is and whether it is enough to win the pot or at least take some winnings.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    I'm not trying to start a fight with you, but I'm also not inclined to agree with really any of your points.
    No issue here. I didn't think we were having a fight.

    I don't understand your're whole emphasis on the transition from 2.0 > 3.0. That basically would be encouraging development on a whole different platform for another year. To me it looks like HP got Palm 11 months ago. Decided to release 2.0 as it was already under construction and yes it was an improvement. It gave them something new to put on phones(Pre2, Veer, and Pre 3). The bottom line is they already realized that there was no future there as they saw it so they developed 3.0. The quicker they get it out the door, the better. Another year of MOJO development and then switching would have been even worse. Yes they seriously botched the transition by not communicating it openly to developers and to legacy device owners. In 11 months they have jumped from 1.4 > 3.0 with the idea of bringing everything together under the "Enyo" umbrella. I think its a great plan even if it was handled badly(2 different things).

    What is "initial marketshare"? According to actual figures, smartphone sales over the first quarter showed growth of 80% over last year. That sounds like the market is growing to me. AT&T reported it was their best 1st quarter ever for smartphone sales. You may say the boom is over but sales aren't showing that.

    We'll find something to agree on eventually.
  20. #80  
    I just wanted to complain that I think the phone industry is a total bag of crap for not being able to advertise total carrier support for a phone a couple months before launch. All this mystery is really stupid and annoying
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