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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    There weren't lines and shortages for the Moto Droid? The Evo 4G? Heck...even the original Pre.



    It appears this is several months away from even beginning, and the market will have changed yet again by then, so I am not sure how you can say with certainty that this is all they need to do or how developers who aren't being bought outright are supposed to wait around for this.
    Sometimes on the opposite side from Mikah, but not here. The P3 may be a good phone (still unknown), BUT...

    1) They needed a different form factor to erase the bad taste of the older Pre's from the public memory. Instead, they choose the two LEAST successful form factors. If they plan to roll out phones "every 2 months", why lead with these two? Let the Pre 2 hold the portrait lovers until you have other styles in the market.

    2) They cannot roll out a device 6 months from now and expect it to be competitive (with developer support, potential customers, or the competition)

    3) If you are going to orphan current users, at least have a plan in place to satisfy them. Most of what has been sold has been by word of mouth, certainly not by in-store reps. They have pretty much killed that source of promotion.
    (not that it's a bad thing to move the forward and require better hardware - the promises of supporting the older phones were ill advised)

    Coming out with a virtually identical looking device, no matter how good it may be, is giving themselves an extra hurdle to jump in the race to public acceptance. It's like Ford releasing the Edsel 2 after the original model went down in flames.
  2. #42  
    Speaking of audience that HP is after, i got the distinct feeling they were after professionals. Not your average consumer.

    The tablet seemed focused on more your average consumer though especially talking about magazines, Beats, etc. I think they need to be consistent. The tablet seemed to be entertainment focused, and the phone for work. I think they need to focus webOS on general consumer but JMO.

    I also got the feeling HP doesn't care about phones as much as its tablet. That's not a good feeling to have.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Card, to a point I agree. If you ask me "Should they have released a Slab phone yesterday or not" my answer would be yes.

    If you said to me "I think the presentation yesterday was a failure business wise because it did not introduce a slab device" then I'd perhaps disagree but think it a reasonable suggestion.

    My issue is with people specifically suggesting the Pre3 is a bad phone, a "fail" phone, because its a portrait slider or because its the same design as the Pre, or (god forbid this lure the one poster in here) its not "top end". It may be a fail bit of marketting, but that doesn't mean the phone is a bad phone. That's where my issue is coming in...many people aren't depicting this as a marketing fail, or a presentation fail, but as a device fail.
    A device fail in the sense that the Pre brand isn't salvageable and just bad timing. I think the Pre needed an extended funeral while introducing something new. Resurrect it later is all i'm saying.

    Yesterday might've been better just talking tablet. This way, nothing negative besides the tablet's release date. Hold the phone event in a few months and even if its about Pre's, you're releasing them soon so there's that much going for it.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I also got the feeling HP doesn't care about phones as much as its tablet. That's not a good feeling to have.
    What gave it away? The 80/20 ratio of tablet talk and tablet partners to brief mentions of the Palm Pre 2, 3, and Veer?
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    What gave it away? The 80/20 ratio of tablet talk and tablet partners to brief mentions of the Palm Pre 2, 3, and Veer?
    I can usually make it through these presentations. But i found myself going back to work and coming back to it every 20mins or so. That tablet thing went on and on and on...
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       #46  
    Also, the mistake is in assuming the current Pre owners market is the only market that a vertical slider may appeal to. How many people started with a Pre and changed for the plethora of reasons OTHER than it being a portrait slider? How many people were interested in buying a Pre and held off because of the plethora of other reasons other than it being a portrait slider? That's not addressing the whole advertising or mindshare type concerns but specifically talking about individuals that did buy and left or wanted to buy but didn't...IE legitimately potential customers.

    WebOS has a TON going for it, and while yes perhaps a Slab may've gotten more people (and I'll be honest, I do not in any way think that's a given) I don't think that necessarily means a vertical slider is impossible or even improbable to have reasonable success more than "FAIL" if it gets right a lot of the things that the Pre got wrong.
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       #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    AYesterday might've been better just talking tablet. This way, nothing negative besides the tablet's release date. Hold the phone event in a few months and even if its about Pre's, you're releasing them soon so there's that much going for it.
    Do you honestly think there'd be less *****ing, complaining, or screams of outrage from people? That we wouldn't see people going "OMG! I'm Leaving because they didn't announce a phone" like they're doing "OMG! They didn't announce a slate, I'm leaving!". That we wouldn't be hearing how "FAIL" the tablet is without a new phone to go with it or how "FAIL" the event was not announcing an update to a phone that's almost 2 years old for some people?

    Granted, the online tech scene is different than the general consumers...but their the ones most peoples "FAIL" comments are referencing it seems. I think unless HP managed to announce 3 phones (vertical, landscape, and slab) with ATRIX level specs or better and the Tablet that they were going to get significant complaints in some fashion or another...and that expectation is just unreasonable to have.
  8. #48  
    I think 2 years ago a slab would have more impact than now. But even so, it still is the most popular. Who knows..Palm may still be Palm if the Pre had been a slab when on Sprint. This might have negated a lot of the Pre quality issues. Sprint users were desperate for an iphone clone at that time. HTC met that demand with the Hero and Evo.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Do you honestly think there'd be less *****ing, complaining, or screams of outrage from people? That we wouldn't see people going "OMG! I'm Leaving because they didn't announce a phone" like they're doing "OMG! They didn't announce a slate, I'm leaving!". That we wouldn't be hearing how "FAIL" the tablet is without a new phone to go with it or how "FAIL" the event was not announcing an update to a phone that's almost 2 years old for some people?

    Granted, the online tech scene is different than the general consumers...but their the ones most peoples "FAIL" comments are referencing it seems. I think unless HP managed to announce 3 phones (vertical, landscape, and slab) with ATRIX level specs or better and the Tablet that they were going to get significant complaints in some fashion or another...and that expectation is just unreasonable to have.
    I think most of the outrage is not about specs, but rather specificity, as in lack of.

    People don't wait this long for a major event to raise more questions than it answers. It's like the last episode of Lost.
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       #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I think 2 years ago a slab would have more impact than now. But even so, it still is the most popular. Who knows..Palm may still be Palm if the Pre had been a slab when on Sprint. This might have negated a lot of the Pre quality issues. Sprint users were desperate for an iphone clone at that time. HTC met that demand with the Hero and Evo.
    And it may still be HP Palm with poor hardware issues still...cheap manufacturing is cheap manufacturing. And it may still be Palm if it had been solidly made and a 3.6" screen with a slightly larger keyboard from the start since those three things were as often criticized as the notion of it being a portrait slider was. Its a guessing game of 20/20 hindsight with no real answer.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Do you honestly think there'd be less *****ing, complaining, or screams of outrage from people? That we wouldn't see people going "OMG! I'm Leaving because they didn't announce a phone" like they're doing "OMG! They didn't announce a slate, I'm leaving!". That we wouldn't be hearing how "FAIL" the tablet is without a new phone to go with it or how "FAIL" the event was not announcing an update to a phone that's almost 2 years old for some people?

    Granted, the online tech scene is different than the general consumers...but their the ones most peoples "FAIL" comments are referencing it seems. I think unless HP managed to announce 3 phones (vertical, landscape, and slab) with ATRIX level specs or better and the Tablet that they were going to get significant complaints in some fashion or another...and that expectation is just unreasonable to have.
    Sure, there'd been some complaining. Can't avoid that. Perhaps give a teaser at the end to mention a phone event in April..but also mention something about the Pre 2 shipping on verizon to lessen the sting.

    But i've got nothing when it comes to not having 2.x for older Pre's. No getting around that.
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       #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I think most of the outrage is not about specs, but rather specificity, as in lack of.

    People don't wait this long for a major event to raise more questions than it answers. It's like the last episode of Lost.
    I gotta disagree here. I'm actually someone that is annoyed heavily at the "summer" time frame and lack of carrier info or price info. If that was the majority of the complaints I'd be in here probably joining the chorus.

    Instead I have people telling me its not "TOP END" like the Droid Bionic because it only has 512 RAM, or that its not "TOP END" because it didn't have a dual core processor, or that its an utter FAIL because it doesn't have the iPhone's dipslay or AMOLED. Or that its a "Fail" simply becasue its a portrait slider. Or a "FAIL" because its only a 3.6" screen instead of a 4".

    If the complaints were primarily about the lack of specifications I'd not be doing half the posting of defense that I'm doing in the past few days....but the majority of complaints I have seen are about the phones spec and design with the unspecified things there along with them.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And it may still be HP Palm with poor hardware issues still...cheap manufacturing is cheap manufacturing. And it may still be Palm if it had been solidly made and a 3.6" screen with a slightly larger keyboard from the start since those three things were as often criticized as the notion of it being a portrait slider was. Its a guessing game of 20/20 hindsight with no real answer.
    Guess we'll never know. But it would be interesting to see how a webOS slab phone would do. Hope to see it someday.
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       #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    But i've got nothing when it comes to not having 2.x for older Pre's. No getting around that.
    Agree with you 100% there. Roast'em for that. If 2.1 wouldn't work on Old Devices then they should've stilled pushed out 2.0. If 2.0 isn't possible to run on them they shouldn't have said it was months ago.
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       #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Guess we'll never know. But it would be interesting to see how a webOS slab phone would do. Hope to see it someday.
    On this we can agree. And to be honest, I still do think we'll see one before the end of the year.
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    #56  
    I don't believe anything failed regarding the form factor.

    I've used:

    horizontal sliders (G1) - get tired of turning the phone constantly from one position to another and it seems to add too much weight
    candy bar (Sony X10) - i just am not comfortable punching away at a glass screen and miss the feedback of a physical keyboard
    fixed portrait keyboard (BB 9700) - nice convenient set-up but the screen size is too small for most tasks
  17. #57  
    Nothing wrong with the form factor. Business users (Blackberry, Treo) are fine with the vertical keyboard. Problem is, the consumer market is now driving sales for smartphones. Sales = installed base = developers = apps = DOMINANCE.

    Many military products go to business and then the consumer. This is not a new progression, but if you get stuck with business when the consumer takes over you may get trampled. I think that may be where HP is with WebOS the way IBM got trampled by Dell.

    It's not an indictment of the product, but the positioning, focus and timing.
  18. #58  
    this isnt a difficult topic to answer. the pre 3 looks great. but why not offer webOS with different options, so everybody can enjoy the love? a slab phone is what i an lusting for with webOS on it. the original pre did not set the world on fire with sales, so why would the same form factor this time around be any different? people have different tastes.

    not everybody wants to drive a honda civic.

    i just do not prefer portrait slider phones. i've used them in the past, great. but the industry has moved to different trends, so is it so hard for HP to cater to the current industry? is that such a "radical" thing to expect?

    portrait slider for the 800k people that bought the first pre and like it. but how about a second slab model for another 800k people to want to purchase?

    not sure why this isnt clear to palm, i mean HP.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I keep hearing the Pre Form Factor "failed", with people equaling "form factor" to "type of phone it is" be it slab, candybar w/ keyboard, vert slider, or horz slider.

    So my question would be this. Was the only thing that caused the Pre's "failure" form factor wise the fact its a vertical slider?

    or did it fail because it had a very small 3.1" screen?

    or did it fail because the vertical keyboard was too cramped to even reasonably be compared to treo's or blackberries?

    or did it fail because the build quality was poor resulting in the "oreo" feel?

    or did it fail because of the poor or cheap construction of various things like the volume buttons or the usb port flap?

    All of these things to me play into the "form factor" of the device, and all were thought of as negatives on the Pre. They also all, from early reports coming out, are being seemingly fixed on the Pre3. You now have a screen on par size wise with the most popular phone on the market. You now have a keyboard that's roundly being regarded as better, with one precentral user whose used it comparing it to the Treo's of old. You have a build quality that is being called sturdier and better feeling than the original. You have metal accented buttons and the removal of the usb port flap.

    The only thing still remaining is the vertical slider.

    So are people who are saying that the "form factor" is what killed the Pre suggesting that all those other issues were irrelevant and the only problem was a vertical slider?

    I remember people stating they were passing on the Pre because it was a vertical slider. I also remember them doing it because the screen was too small. The build quality was bad. The keyboard was too cramped. 3 out of four of those thinsg are significantly improved with the Pre3, yet the suggestion is its going to be the exact same "fail" as the original Pre when it comes to peoples happiness with the form factor. That doesn't make sense to me.
    To me it's definitely the cheap build quality. In fact I would love to have a pre3. Still, with how big the pre failed it would have been nice if they completely rebooted the hardware instead of the software (really palm, the hole mojo/enyo thing is dumb as hell).

    I don't know what I'm going to do about a phone/tablet now. I was ready to buy a tablet yesterday, but obviously that is now out the window.

    HP screwed the pooch. While I think they might have some really cool ideas coming (integration of WebOS apps with windows, easily done given enyo's browerish roots), the fact that they can't seem to tell a consistent story and be honest is frustrating as well.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by brdl04 View Post
    THE IPHONE FAILS!!! They have had 4 iphones in the last 4 years and they all look alike. COME ON APPLE!! HOW ARE YOU GOING TO WIN IF YOU CANNOT PUT OUT A SLIDER!
    Retina sreeen?!?!? WHO CARES!!
    Antenna? PSH!
    Glass on the back!!?!?! Why would you put glass on the back??

    Advertising?? Perfect. Thats why they win....

    you can fail anything you want.
    you said it best. to be honest there are only so many form factors. hp is sticking to there trade marked form factor.Didn't they say they a all touch phone was coming out as well? there is nothing wrong with that. hell look at the contest winners. all looked like the pre 3 . why are people complaining>? oh and while im here what were the 3 devices in that blacked out pic from long ago?
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