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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm not one that thinks marketing is the main culprit...I do think it was a piece of the puzzle just like many other things. To my understanding as well while Bell's ad's were similar to the iPhones it wasn't nearly the advertising blitz or budget that Apple has or that supposedly HP is alluding to putting behind this.

    The type of Ad is one side, the market saturation of those ad's is another side.
    Ok, put Bell aside. It didn't really work out particularly well anywhere, to my knowledge. Ads help. Saturation helps. But compelling product helps waaaaaaaaay more. The Pre form factor isn't particularly compelling to mainstream consumers. It's been tried several times on several carriers at several prices with different guts, to boot.

    I just don't see the Veer and Pre 3 changing that. I don't say it as a fact, but I do see a lot of empirical evidence to lend credence to what I say.
  2. #22  
    the formfactor isn't what failed them, it was the build quality,performance and marketing.... Period
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by ikirumata View Post
    Palm was in trouble and went out of business. HP is a totally different beast! Largest tech company on the planet, huge marketing and sales channels, manufacturers that pretty much ask how high when they ask them to jump! Im willing to see what happens before writing them off.
    I think what's causing people to "write them off" after yesterday is that they unveiled a series of products and strategic decisions that indicated they were operating nigh identically to Palm when they were about to go out of business. It looked like a struggling company running way behind putting on a show because they kinda had to with very little finished product or substantial information on their strategy.
  4. #24  
    One other thing to keep in mind when comparing to the iphone. The iphone already had itunes setup.

    What I mean is, people’s expectations of what the iphone would be were already “primed” by the success of the ipod. No other phone company has had that kind of “leg up” coming out of the gate. That said, Apple has done a fairly good job of stoking and maintaining that kind of misplaced hysteria (antenna-gate and flash-fascism aside.)

    I would argue that no individual phone has ever had a resounding insta-geekout upon release with the exception of the original moto razor.

    Androids, well androids are for the tech tinkerers. They target the guy that wants the highest technical specs with the knowledge that the first thing they want to do with it is “root” it so they can completely change the way the OEM designed it to work. Don’t get me wrong, Android itself is very successful and a force in the market, but honestly, how many people could pick out one android phone among a stack of 10 of them and tell me what the name of it is?

    So HP doesn’t really need to “hit the ball out of the park” with one phone. All HP really needs to do is release competitive phones, repeatedly, while staying on their path of integrating phones closely to the other household tech gadgets like they have forecasted. Support/woo/incentivize developers to start pumping out apps so the “all-important” app count websites show webOS as a force to be reckoned with and then rinse-and-repeat.

    -Suntan
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    the formfactor isn't what failed them, it was the build quality,performance and marketing.... Period
    Definitely, when they had the Pre Plus in production Palm should have done everything they could to erase the original Pre and replace it on all launch carriers with the Pre Plus. That was a huge mistake that hurt them and the Pre's reputation a lot.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    the formfactor isn't what failed them, it was the build quality,performance and marketing.... Period
    how can you say the form factor had nothing to do with it.. Period.

    Show me a slider phone that has been a huge success in the last 5 years..

    Now do I think that is the only reason no.. not at all. All those things you mentioned definitely had a part in it. But saying that the form factor had nothing to do with it at this point is a little premature because no one has ever had a hugely successful phone in this form factor..

    I just think they may have wanted to spread their investment in phones around a bit since we know the general consumers like slab phones and have yet to show if they like portrait sliders.
  7. WhoMe's Avatar
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    #27  
    I do believe they should have included a slate in the line up if just appease the market's current aesthetics. Obviously the Veer was in response to what HP thinks is a market who wants a small, "casual" smart phone. The Pixi people if you will. So in turn why not make a slate? It is the flavor of the moment.

    That being said I love the Pre's design and form. I like the vertical slider and my only gripe was how slow the phone is, how tight it's keyboard is, and its small screen.

    The Pre 3 addresses all those things. This is the phone I want. Too bad I have to wait for it....bummer.
  8. dpc
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    #28  
    I'm gettin' it, and if it's as solid as it seems I'm telling everyone I know to get one.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Suntan View Post
    One other thing to keep in mind when comparing to the iphone. The iphone already had itunes setup.

    What I mean is, people’s expectations of what the iphone would be were already “primed” by the success of the ipod. No other phone company has had that kind of “leg up” coming out of the gate. That said, Apple has done a fairly good job of stoking and maintaining that kind of misplaced hysteria (antenna-gate and flash-fascism aside.)

    I would argue that no individual phone has ever had a resounding insta-geekout upon release with the exception of the original moto razor.
    There weren't lines and shortages for the Moto Droid? The Evo 4G? Heck...even the original Pre.

    So HP doesn’t really need to “hit the ball out of the park” with one phone. All HP really needs to do is release competitive phones, repeatedly, while staying on their path of integrating phones closely to the other household tech gadgets like they have forecasted. Support/woo/incentivize developers to start pumping out apps so the “all-important” app count websites show webOS as a force to be reckoned with and then rinse-and-repeat.

    -Suntan
    It appears this is several months away from even beginning, and the market will have changed yet again by then, so I am not sure how you can say with certainty that this is all they need to do or how developers who aren't being bought outright are supposed to wait around for this.
  10. Zyphlin's Avatar
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       #30  
    I agree that saying that it was those things PERIOD and the slider style wasn't involved at all is incorrect.

    I just discount the notion that because currently slabs are popular that such is the way to go and is a universal truth. Prior to the Droid landscape keyboards were far from successful. HTC-6700 and the Mogul were decently successful as far as windows mobile phones go but that's daming with rather faint praise. The original G1 wasn't exactly blowing peoples skirts up. The droid managed to do a LOT of things right...from build quality, to good sized screen, to good sized device, to good specs, to great advertising...that it essentially thrust the landscape slider into the "popular" realm.

    I see no reason why something similar can't happen with a vertical slider form factor. Its a gamble of course in hoping that you get most of the other stuff right and that it overcompensates for the negatives associated with a vertical slider enough to get people to look at it without preconceptions and realize it sets it apart in a good way. However, if it goes with a landscape slider I think they have less hope of potentially becoming a design pillar (Such as the iPhone is the sub 3" slab pillar, the Droid the landscape pillar, and Evo the 4"+ pillar atm) but a more sound chance of being a solidly recieved phone.

    Big bust, big Gain....or safe play but limited ceiling thing.

    Personally, I think we WILL see either a landscape keyboard or a slate WebOS phone within the year...actually I think we may see both. There's been a good bit of smoke to indicate that it won't be only 2 phones released this year. However, I imagine if that's going to be their "superphone" they'd rather it come out during the Holiday cycle rather than the summer cycle.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre686 View Post
    how can you say the form factor had nothing to do with it.. Period.

    Show me a slider phone that has been a huge success in the last 5 years..

    Now do I think that is the only reason no.. not at all. All those things you mentioned definitely had a part in it. But saying that the form factor had nothing to do with it at this point is a little premature because no one has ever had a hugely successful phone in this form factor..

    I just think they may have wanted to spread their investment in phones around a bit since we know the general consumers like slab phones and have yet to show if they like portrait sliders.
    Well you know what they could do. They could add a virtual keyboard trigger to the the version of webOS the Pre 3 launches with and then just not have a person that wants a "slab" open the slider. Considering the size of the screen is actually going to be slightly larger than the iPhone and that the slider setup they use doesn't add any significant thickness to the device I'd say they DID just announce a slab.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I agree that saying that it was those things PERIOD and the slider style wasn't involved at all is incorrect.

    I just discount the notion that because currently slabs are popular that such is the way to go and is a universal truth. Prior to the Droid landscape keyboards were far from successful. HTC-6700 and the Mogul were decently successful as far as windows mobile phones go but that's daming with rather faint praise. The original G1 wasn't exactly blowing peoples skirts up. The droid managed to do a LOT of things right...from build quality, to good sized screen, to good sized device, to good specs, to great advertising...that it essentially thrust the landscape slider into the "popular" realm.
    True. There were a couple more essential ones you're missing:

    - Carrier flagship device of the #1 carrier in America at the time. These devices have no carriers, much less flagship status at any of them.
    - A mature Android OS with 16,000 apps or so and huge developer momentum. HP is stuck around 6,000 apps, changing its development framework, and not putting devices to support that on the market for months.

    I see no reason why something similar can't happen with a vertical slider form factor. Its a gamble of course in hoping that you get most of the other stuff right and that it overcompensates for the negatives associated with a vertical slider enough to get people to look at it without preconceptions and realize it sets it apart in a good way. However, if it goes with a landscape slider I think they have less hope of potentially becoming a design pillar (Such as the iPhone is the sub 3" slab pillar, the Droid the landscape pillar, and Evo the 4"+ pillar atm) but a more sound chance of being a solidly recieved phone.

    Big bust, big Gain....or safe play but limited ceiling thing.

    Personally, I think we WILL see either a landscape keyboard or a slate WebOS phone within the year...actually I think we may see both. There's been a good bit of smoke to indicate that it won't be only 2 phones released this year. However, I imagine if that's going to be their "superphone" they'd rather it come out during the Holiday cycle rather than the summer cycle.
    before they can do either of these, don't they need to make WebOS an actual multi-oriented OS? (e.g. onscreen keyboard, main screen in landscape, all apps functioning in Landscape)
  13. #33  
    I was a big fan of the Pre form factor. The Pre 3, if solid, looks great to me.

    But i also recognize that the audience that HP is after is all about slab phones these days. The iphone started it. Android makers capitalized on it. Honestly, i can't believe we're even having this discussion given how obvious this is.

    That's not to say they shouldn't do anymore Pre like form factors. It has its fans. It has a niche. But the Pre brand struck out long ago. Put it on the shelf. Get the slab out..first priority. Once the community and other blogs are going gaga over HP's success and the slab phone is doing well, then you reintroduce a Pre form factor (rebranded)..if you feel the need.

    No need for teen phones, or 10 other form factors until you get a flagship out there that is successful. If Android can capitalize on it, WP7 makers can, then HP can. Ruby said himself yesterday (while introducing the tablet) that finally, a form factor webOS can truly shine on..a slab. It can't get any more obvious than this.
    Last edited by cardfan; 02/10/2011 at 01:24 PM.
  14. #34  
    I like the slider. It's really kind of simple, complaining here ain't going to help. Leave and enjoy the other "grass is greener on the other side" phones if that makes you happy.

    ET
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    .
    What you said is exactly how I feel. In fact I still have a soft spot for the pre 3 style and hey who knows I may pick up a pre 3 but I'm not waiting for one and if something better comes out first I'm trading in my evo and getting that.
    But none of my friends like that form factor they are all looking for Evo or Iphone type phones even if I said oh you could use it as a slab. I just don't think it has the same appeal in todays market of Iphone's and Evo's and vertical sliders.
  16. Zyphlin's Avatar
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       #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    True. There were a couple more essential ones you're missing:

    - Carrier flagship device of the #1 carrier in America at the time. These devices have no carriers, much less flagship status at any of them.
    - A mature Android OS with 16,000 apps or so and huge developer momentum. HP is stuck around 6,000 apps, changing its development framework, and not putting devices to support that on the market for months.
    Absolutely correct on those as well. That said, it still shows that a relatively 2nd string design factor CAN become a bonofied hit if the other factors can pull the weight. And more than that, if the other factors are done well enough that previous design question mark could become viewed as a design boom.

    before they can do either of these, don't they need to make WebOS an actual multi-oriented OS? (e.g. onscreen keyboard, main screen in landscape, all apps functioning in Landscape)
    You won't find any argument with me on those things...non landscaped main screen is one of the things that's bugged me since launch day of Pre1. However, I also think based on how they handled WebOS 3.0 for the Tablet that if/when a phone comes out that is realisticly going to be used often in landscape that they will tweak and tune up the OS to coincide with it, much as they did with the Tablet.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by etphoto View Post
    I like the slider. It's really kind of simple, complaining here ain't going to help. Leave and enjoy the other "grass is greener on the other side" phones if that makes you happy.

    ET
    Just say leave is the simple option and leads to a very boring place where everyone just gets along and never disagrees with each other. That sounds boring. This is a "Discussion" board a place to discuss things we like and dislike about WebOs devices. WebOs is a great OS I just don't agree with the hardware direction and since that is everyone is talking about , I am too and contributing my thoughts and feelings(Yes I realize no one probably really cares what I think but that is the beauty of an online discussion board I still get to state my opinion!) So just telling people who don't think Palm/Hp can do no wrong to leave is naive and frankly rude.


    Oh and to make this on topic.. I personally don't mind the Portrait slider and might give up my slab.. I was the most disappointed in the time frame given for release as it just totally reminds me of the Original Pre launch and we all know how well that turned out.
  18. Zyphlin's Avatar
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       #38  
    Card, to a point I agree. If you ask me "Should they have released a Slab phone yesterday or not" my answer would be yes.

    If you said to me "I think the presentation yesterday was a failure business wise because it did not introduce a slab device" then I'd perhaps disagree but think it a reasonable suggestion.

    My issue is with people specifically suggesting the Pre3 is a bad phone, a "fail" phone, because its a portrait slider or because its the same design as the Pre, or (god forbid this lure the one poster in here) its not "top end". It may be a fail bit of marketting, but that doesn't mean the phone is a bad phone. That's where my issue is coming in...many people aren't depicting this as a marketing fail, or a presentation fail, but as a device fail.
  19. Pun
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    #39  
    I like the form factor of the Pre, the only negative for me is the "quality". To be honest I've had my Pre for 17 months and never had to take it in, but after a year and a half it just feels cheap now. I broke out my old treo 755 not too long ago and it felt like a strong device still, and that thing is old. but other than that I love the pre, I like that i have a keyboard and it's vertical so typing with one hand is easy. I got no problem with the Pre3 as long as it's quality is strong and sturdy. I like the form factor, especially since it will be a little bit bigger now.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Well you know what they could do. They could add a virtual keyboard trigger to the the version of webOS the Pre 3 launches with and then just not have a person that wants a "slab" open the slider. Considering the size of the screen is actually going to be slightly larger than the iPhone and that the slider setup they use doesn't add any significant thickness to the device I'd say they DID just announce a slab.
    Not opening it up would not be like having a slate phone. It is a 3.6 inch screen but most of the increased size is in one direction, in portrait mode the keyboard would be cramped and in landscape it would take up much more of the screen real estate than other slates.

    You also add thickness and weight due to the mechanism and the added backings needed versus a slate phone. You say the setup doesn't add any significant thickness yet the phone is 16mm thick which is 50% thicker than some higher end slates coming out this year.

    Is the form factor a failure, I would lean toward yes. It is not a big seller on any phone, and it has drawbacks compared to landscape sliders (smaller keyboard) and slates (thickness and weight). The biggest thing is it is not sexy, you need people to walk into the store and pick up your device, and a big screen or big keyboard is much more tempting to play with than a tall/thin screen and a small keyboard.
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