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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    Then why do other phones have it? I'm sorry, this argument is invalid.
    Edit: I'm not arguing the point that the carriers don't want it, but if other phones have it, then the argument is pointless.



    A) What do I do during those months? B) That's not EVERYWHERE. There will still be some areas not covered by EVDO for quite some time...if ever. Just like now there are some areas with no data at all (yes, they are in the boondocks...but they exist.)
    Try holding your breath. Coverage is where the people are and never quite global. If I have to bet on whether I will have 3G where I want it first or Wi-Fi on a Treo first, I will bet on 3G. Are you offering odds?
  2. #182  
    Why do I care about the price of WiFi @ Javits Center? Why even bother making that post? The point is, there are places where I commonly visit that have WiFi....free.

    I'm not trying to compare EVDO to WiFi and I'm not sure why you are. That has nothing to do with it. I want high speed wireless @ Richland. What's my option? WiFi. I want to browse my LAN @ home INSIDE my firewall. What's my option? WiFi. I want to browse my LAN @ the office. What's my option? WiFi. I want to use the internet at our farm. What's my option? WiFi.

    Again, I'm not pitting EVDO against WiFi. I LOVE EVDO. I WANT EVDO. I WILL HAVE EVDO. But it does NOT replace WiFi in every situation. WiFi is useful to me and to many other people out there for whatever reason. So why do you keep arguing?
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    ........Again, I'm not pitting EVDO against WiFi. I LOVE EVDO. I WANT EVDO. I WILL HAVE EVDO. But it does NOT replace WiFi in every situation.........
    Agreed. I did not intend to suggest that it does. Nor am I trying to suggest you should not want it. I suppose that I do think that some here, but not you, over value it. What I am trying to suggest is, that no matter how badly you want it, Palm is not going to deliver it on the Treo in the forseeable future. What you want simply does not rank with what the carriers want. It is not simply that the carriers do not want to pay for it, but they are prepared to pay to ensure that it is not there. Palm does not expect to lose many sales because they do not deliver it but they expect to lose carriers if they do.
  4. DHart's Avatar
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    #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    I can very much see the advantage of integrated WiFi. Yes, EV-DO is supposedly as good as low end broadband, but when you're at the office , home, or a client with true WiFi, it would be great to do the surfing, email, file/server checking at true WiFi speed.
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Wi-Fi is no more free than the free lunch. Sometimes it costs more than the free lunch. While it is usually fast, there are exceptions. Again, while there may be exceptions, almost any place that I have Wi-Fi, I will have GPRS and usually 2.5G but the opposite is not true. There are far more places where I will have GPRS, 2.5G, or 3G than Wi-Fi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Yes, we view wi-fi as an alternative to being tied to a proprietary data contract.
    Some of us see an advantage to having WiFi on the next Treo (or any other phone for that matter) and we have expressed our desire for this for various reasons:

    1. Of course WiFi does not have the coverage offered by the cellular carriers. BUT there are MANY places where we can take advantage of WiFi at a cost far below that of the data plans offered by carriers - despite your protests about no free lunches, whmurray. The facts, despite your protests, are that WiFi access to data would be less expensive when available. We would like to take advantage of that.

    2. Equating EVDO/EDGE/HSPDA speed with WiFi is just wrong. WiFi wins that race hands down.

    3. If carrier coverage should be the predominant factor in our WiFi/No WiFi decision, why are the carriers so adamant about excluding it from their phone offerings? If there truly is no economic threat, then what's the objection? This is at the root of another primary reason for including WiFi in our phones. COMPETITION. You are not against lowering our costs, are you?

    Reading your posts, whmurray, it is obvious that you are very technically competent. But your arguments seem to put a spin toward supporting carriers at the expense of other avenues of communication. Is there a connection there somewhere?
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    What I am trying to suggest is, that no matter how badly you want it, Palm is not going to deliver it on the Treo in the forseeable future. What you want simply does not rank with what the carriers want. It is not simply that the carriers do not want to pay for it, but they are prepared to pay to ensure that it is not there. Palm does not expect to lose many sales because they do not deliver it but they expect to lose carriers if they do.
    Verizon, Sprint, and Cingular all sell phones with WiFi. The carriers choose to offer phones with WiFi because their corporate customers want it.

    Verizon: Samsung i730
    Sprint: PPC-6700
    Cingular: Siemens SX66

    Yes, the carriers prefer selling phones without WiFi because customers who use WiFi are less likely to sign up for expensive data plans. But there's no outright ban on WiFi-enabled phones at any of the major carriers.
  6. slinky's Avatar
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    #186  
    Comparing WiFi to EVDO is pointless and as is being continuously ignored, the two are not the same and will never be pure alternatives. WiFi is local based access and you CANNOT assume that EVDO is available everywhere WiFi is.

    (1) If you live in a city that has tall buildings (I know of a few with many consumers) or travel at all (and many of us do, local and in GSM-international country), EVDO is not or may not be available or limited. WiFi will be the ONLY available access point and this is a given at most hotels these days too. Given that the Treo/phone is now a fully functioning PDA and being used more frequently for Internet/mail applications, WiFi capability is an important inclusion.

    (2) If you are logging onto local networks that are secured then you will need/want WiFi since EVDO requires you to connect to the network from the outside by going through a carrier's network to arrive at that destination. There's a speed issue to begin with. But what's next? Having to buy even more proprietary applications to make remote private network connections over EVDO? Please... this is even more muck to have to deal with when there is an easy solution -- WiFi. I sure as heck wouldn't even bother if a WiFi solution was so easily available and it is.

    (3) VOIP is not available over EV-DO if you aren't in an EV-DO area. Just because a few EVDO only users on a Treo exists, doesn't mean that such applications will receive much support.

    I agree with sankim and the many others here who have explained this, simply listing the models. It's Palm's stupid business philosophy and feeling that they will continue to make money on accessories and over-incentivize the customer to buy the next phone that will doom them.
  7. DHart's Avatar
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    #187  
    Many good points, samkim and slinky. Many of us see many good reasons to want WiFi on our phones.

    I am agnostic about the phone itself. I don't care about the brand name on the front. I just want the phone hardware, software, and the networks that I access thru the device to deliver the capabilities I am looking for at the lowest price I can find. Right now that means Treo. If the next Treo does not have WiFi, I will begin to look elsewhere for a better alternative.

    I don't think I am unique. I mean we all ended up here because we felt that we found the best alternative when we bought the 650, right? Well, the game is changing. We will find out shortly if Palm is still offering the best alternative for each of us.
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by slinky
    It's Palm's stupid business philosophy and feeling that they will continue to make money on accessories and over-incentivize the customer to buy the next phone that will doom them.
    I agree with most of what you have said except this part? Why do you think it's Palm that doesnt want us to have wifi with the treo and not the cellphone carriers? It's not really an issue of not being able to right? (because there are other 'palms' that have wifi but rather that the cellphone carriers do not want the consumer to have the option of using wifi and not buying a data plan.)

    (Granted-it may be stupid from a consumer point of view but the carriers are probably paying big bucks to get what they want.)
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I agree with most of what you have said except this part? Why do you think it's Palm that doesnt want us to have wifi with the treo and not the cellphone carriers? It's not really an issue of not being able to right? (because there are other 'palms' that have wifi but rather that the cellphone carriers do not want the consumer to have the option of using wifi and not buying a data plan.)

    (Granted-it may be stupid from a consumer point of view but the carriers are probably paying big bucks to get what they want.)
    Not necessarily. Sprint uses the PPC-6700's WiFi to promote it's own hot spot service. They need to see the business sense since the WiFi revenue will just go to someone else (T-Mobile) if it's not included in these devices. Granted there are some free hotspots and one could still use a competitor's hotspots and not necessarily Sprint's but it would rock if Sprint gave you the option between WiFi/EVDO/1XRTT data handoffs and all on the same plan or bill. That would be a big incentive for many Sprint data customers.
  10. #190  
    That is exactly what the HTC Universal is suppose to do:

    HTC Universal
    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=92815

    In addition to its GSM/GPRS/UMTS capabilities, it will have Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. It will reportedly be able to automatically switch between whichever wireless network is best at any given moment.
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by xchpstang
    Not necessarily. Sprint uses the PPC-6700's WiFi to promote it's own hot spot service. They need to see the business sense since the WiFi revenue will just go to someone else (T-Mobile) if it's not included in these devices. Granted there are some free hotspots and one could still use a competitor's hotspots and not necessarily Sprint's but it would rock if Sprint gave you the option between WiFi/EVDO/1XRTT data handoffs and all on the same plan or bill. That would be a big incentive for many Sprint data customers.
    I didn't know sprint has been advertising it's own wifi hotspots like tmobile.

    There is a slight difference here though...we are talking PPC not POS. I don't think Sprint is interested in offering wifi for POS. That is one reason why some may consider the 700w. Evidently it will allow you to use the sd wifi card (because its PPC).

    Verizon (and to a lessor degree Sprint) are touting the Broadband service (EVDO) so that you are always covered (maybe at least in a city like NY, LA or Boston). For sprint users, the price seems to be the same as 1xRTT. Verizon I think charges more.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  12. slinky's Avatar
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    #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I agree with most of what you have said except this part? Why do you think it's Palm that doesnt want us to have wifi with the treo and not the cellphone carriers? It's not really an issue of not being able to right? (because there are other 'palms' that have wifi but rather that the cellphone carriers do not want the consumer to have the option of using wifi and not buying a data plan.)

    (Granted-it may be stupid from a consumer point of view but the carriers are probably paying big bucks to get what they want.)
    Two points:


    (1) Palm's ***** decision -- in the 700W, WiFi is an add-on. Thus Palm thinks it can price point the 700 the *same* as other "PDA-phones" AND make a killing on the huge margin producing an SD card with WiFi. (a) Many who use WiFi won't miss factoring the $100+ accessory into the cost, and (b) by several reports the WiFi card is flaky and doesn't compare to internal, hardwired WiFi components, and (c) If you only have 64MB of RAM in PPC, then you freaking NEED to have your SD slot occupied to store items. How STUPID is that design?

    (2) The only dumb-@$$ carrier is Verizon, who spent massive amounts of money on WiFi access all over New York City (I have a collector's item T-Shirt) and then cut it so that its ***** Internet division can start firing marketing bullets at WiFi providers with the campaign "WiFi sucks because EV-DO is everywhere, not just at Starbucks" that is working to some feeble extent. Problem for them is that for corporate IT managers, it's their job it is to know the difference and not be suckered.

    Sorry if it sounds pretty harsh. I've just had it with this philosphy and have a thing against companies whose philosphy is solely to milk prior customers rather than provide a reasonable return on investment in exchange for a reasonable margin. If Palm goes under (or more likely bought out at a fraction of what it once was worth), they deserve it since they did it to themselves. I just wish the stockholders could penalize management for this...
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Yesterday I was at the Javits Center in NYC. As I expected, Wi-Fi was available. As I expected it was metered. However, instead of the $10 per day that I expected or the T-Mo reciprocity that I might have hoped for, it was $24.95 per day (or $69.95 for 3 days). What was even worse, the speed was limited to 56K. Needless to say I used PDANet over my Treo instead.


    That's a ridiculous price for wi-fi!! They are simply taking advantage.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by slinky
    (1) Palm's ***** decision -- in the 700W, WiFi is an add-on. Thus Palm thinks it can price point the 700 the *same* as other "PDA-phones" AND make a killing on the huge margin producing an SD card with WiFi. (a) Many who use WiFi won't miss factoring the $100+ accessory into the cost, and (b) by several reports the WiFi card is flaky and doesn't compare to internal, hardwired WiFi components, and (c) If you only have 64MB of RAM in PPC, then you freaking NEED to have your SD slot occupied to store items. How STUPID is that design?
    This is one reason why I won't buy the 700w. They should not be able to price it up there with all-inclusive devices. Also what's the BT, is it at least 1.2? If it's still 1.1, another reason I won't buy it. Others have 1.2 for the same price.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by slinky
    Two points:


    (1) Palm's ***** decision -- in the 700W, WiFi is an add-on. Thus Palm thinks it can price point the 700 the *same* as other "PDA-phones" AND make a killing on the huge margin producing an SD card with WiFi. (a) Many who use WiFi won't miss factoring the $100+ accessory into the cost, and (b) by several reports the WiFi card is flaky and doesn't compare to internal, hardwired WiFi components, and (c) If you only have 64MB of RAM in PPC, then you freaking NEED to have your SD slot occupied to store items. How STUPID is that design?
    I think those points may be valid but isnt that better than no wifi in the next POS treo? At least there is an option to have wifi (I don't know about you but I really don't think the 700p will have wifi.)

    Quote Originally Posted by slinky
    (2) The only dumb-@$$ carrier is Verizon, who spent massive amounts of money on WiFi access all over New York City (I have a collector's item T-Shirt) and then cut it so that its ***** Internet division can start firing marketing bullets at WiFi providers with the campaign "WiFi sucks because EV-DO is everywhere, not just at Starbucks" that is working to some feeble extent. Problem for them is that for corporate IT managers, it's their job it is to know the difference and not be suckered.
    I can't speak for verizon (Im on sprint) but sprint probably isn't fond of wifi either. What carrier wants to roll out evdo (remember where they roll it out first...large metro cities) where there is already a lot of wifi hotspots? You have to recover those costs for evdo and every person who doesnt go for that and uses wifi cuts into that recovery.

    Quote Originally Posted by slinky
    Sorry if it sounds pretty harsh. I've just had it with this philosphy and have a thing against companies whose philosphy is solely to milk prior customers rather than provide a reasonable return on investment in exchange for a reasonable margin. If Palm goes under (or more likely bought out at a fraction of what it once was worth), they deserve it since they did it to themselves. I just wish the stockholders could penalize management for this...
    I think the problem is that the carriers have the power in this arrangement. Palm handhelds seem to be doing fine. Its only the units that use cellular (i.e. treos) that they have problems.

    BTW-I don't like it either (hence I never upgraded from the 600)
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  16. #196  
    Since data plans are so popular with heavy data users(more economical in the end), I really don't see why including wi-fi for part -time users(like me) is such a problem for carriers. It's not like everyone's going to dump their data plans. See how popular they are on here. Even T-mobile has sense enough to realize people want to use wi-fi and they have their hot spots(and yes they have data plans too). If Verizon did have hot spots as Slinky said, why didn't they keep them too?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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    #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Since data plans are so popular with heavy data users(more economical in the end), I really don't see why including wi-fi for part -time users(like me) is such a problem for carriers. It's not like everyone's going to dump their data plans. See how popular they are on here. Even T-mobile has sense enough to realize people want to use wi-fi and they have their hot spots(and yes they have data plans too). If Verizon did have hot spots as Slinky said, why didn't they keep them too?
    First -- tgungho, I agree with you that the option is good but it really isn't an option! As I mentioned, you'll have to dump your essential SD card. In addition, those add-ons were never that good and given the choice between the two and the price it's a no-brainer.

    Second -- WiFi is here to stay and carriers can either put their fingers in their ears or deal with the technology. New York is even putting in more free WiFi infrastructure (the entire Bryant park area has free WiFi) as are other cities. There is a difference also as mentioned that WiFi is NOT the same as EVDO which is not an alternative to WiFi. Each has different usages, WiFi dealing with private/corporate networks.

    Lady Treo -- It's a damn good question why Verizon spent so much for their hotspots all over New York only to shut them off. I'm guessing that with their ***** "T-Mobile limits you to Starbucks" campaign so consumers would buy EVDO instead. Now that may be only $10 per month more for EVDO's "unlimited wireless" capabilities but it's also a whopping $50 more for laptop access (it's $80). Sure we'd like that "freedom" but I think Verizon is going about this all wrong and they couldn't push out their own WiFi Internet without cutting into their EVDO sales. Thus, stupid decisionmaking means that they will allow competitors to sell WiFi that they won't. Whatever.

    And again, LT, WiFi is not just for "part time users" and EVDO for "heavy users." WiFi is for anyone that uses a Treo locally with a private network in any fashion. Heavy users who need instant access to email and are using the Treo as a Blackberry alternative will opt for EVDO.
  18. DHart's Avatar
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    #198  
    Hmm...It seems that there IS no free lunch. But the WiFi might be while you are eating.

    As Wi-Fi spreads, more free locations popping up

    By Jefferson Graham, USA TODAY

    LOS ANGELES Kurt Peterson knows how to pick his Wi-Fi. "I go anywhere I can get it for free," he says. "Why should I pay? Enough people do it for free."

    Stephen Staats, 34, uses wireless service at Panera Bread in Westchester, CA.


    Peterson, a Los Angeles union organizer, has been spotted, laptop in hand, cellphone dangling from ear, at a Panera Bread store near Los Angeles International Airport.

    Panera, like Schlotzsky's Deli, Krystal restaurants and other independent cafes, libraries, parks and a growing number of cities, offers free wireless Internet access. No strings attached.

    The trend marks a major change from well-publicized efforts by companies such as Starbucks, Barnes & Noble and FedEx Kinko's as well as many hotel chains. They offer Internet "hotspots" at many locations for a fee ranging from $4 to $10 a day. Have a Wi-Fi laptop? You can access the Internet in seconds after you fork over your credit card payment, register and sign in.

    JiWire, a company that tracks Wi-Fi use, says Wi-Fi service is available at 32,000 U.S. locations; 90% of them charge a fee.

    As the number of Wi-Fi hot spots grows, consumers will become less willing to pay for it, predicts JiWire CEO Kevin McKenzie. "We'll see more free Wi-Fi popping up, becoming a public utility like electricity and water."

    Stephen Staats, who runs a health care staffing firm, makes a point of visiting one of the Panera outlets when he's in Los Angeles. "I come here every day I'm in town because I love the free Wi-Fi," he says. "I have my own little office in a booth."

    How to find free signals

    Once you're equipped for Wi-Fi, check the Web to find out where you can pick up free signals. Wififreespot.com has listings for all 50 states, and separate pages for airports, hotels, RV parks and campgrounds, and vacation rental properties. Hotspot-locations.com and wifinder.com also have global locations.

    Neal Yanofsky, executive vice president of the 773-store Panera Bread chain, can't say for sure if he has sold more sandwiches since adding free Wi-Fi service in 2004.

    "We just think it's one more reason to come visit our cafes," he says. If visitors linger, that's OK, too. "It leads to food purchases."

    Other chains that offer free Wi-Fi include Diedrich Coffee, Apple retail stores and the EZ Lube auto service chain in California. And most independent coffee houses offer free Wi-Fi to try to lure business away from national chains such as Starbucks.

    Cities with free Wi-Fi

    Several cities are offering free Wi-Fi service to residents and visitors. In California, downtown areas of Long Beach, Hermosa Beach and Culver City have free Wi-Fi. Austin, Cleveland and Spokane, Wash., have Wi-Fi zones, and Philadelphia is building a Wi-Fi system for the entire city.

    Laptop users often drop into locations that don't advertise free Wi-Fi signals, only to discover a notice pop up on their computer screens that a wireless network is available. Signals could be coming from a nearby office or store.

    The signal may fade in and out like an old TV station with rabbit ears, but, hey it's free. (One word of caution: In April, a Florida man was arrested for parking outside a St. Petersburg home and hacking into the owner's wireless home network.)

    Be careful when using Wi-Fi in public. If you're doing anything more sensitive than checking e-mail, wait until you get home, says McKenzie, whose firm sells $39.95 software to make surfing the Wi-Fi web in open cafes more secure.

    Still, companies such as Starbucks tout the security and reliability of their networks as one reason consumers should pay for access. These companies will continue to appeal to the business traveler who wants consistency, says Jim Sullivan, who runs wififreespot.com.

    "But the price has to come down. In any location with a paid hotspot, there will always be a free one nearby."
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I didn't know sprint has been advertising it's own wifi hotspots like tmobile.
    My understanding is that Sprint offers Wi-Fi to its enterprise customers. They offer a plan where you use Wi-Fi on the enterprise campus to connect to the APBX to Sprint LD. When you leave the campus, the phone automatically switches to the Sprint CDMA network. However, the Wi-Fi works only with the enterprise Wi-Fi. It does not work with arbitrary Wi-Fi hotspots.
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    Hmm...It seems that there IS no free lunch. But the WiFi might be while you are eating.

    ...........
    JiWire, a company that tracks Wi-Fi use, says Wi-Fi service is available at 32,000 U.S. locations; 90% of them charge a fee.......

    .......
    And yet many here perceive it as a "free" alternative to paying a carrier for data. (It is true that cheap Wi-Fi may drive dear Wi-Fi from the market but it clearly has not happened yet.)
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