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  1. #61  
    $400 in orphaned software is more than a little hiccup. It is not only the cost, but years of learned use. New software will mean the replacement cost and a new learning curve to get to the same comfort level. (That puts a real damper on any new user experience provided by a new device.)

    I agree with your concept -- it's the user experience that truly matters, not the OS or brand of hardware. But right now, my user experience is based 10 years with Palm. My next Treo will have a Palm OS or an OS that will run heritage Palm software -- as long as they make one with specs near the WM5 version.

    Cheers, Perry
  2. #62  
    maybe they just wanted the rights to the interface and not the OS? I think this spells bad news for anyone who was waiting for a new POS Treo...
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    maybe they just wanted the rights to the interface and not the OS? I think this spells bad news for anyone who was waiting for a new POS Treo...

    *sigh*

    gharrod, did you even read the whole thread? The story was retracted and completely refuted by PalmSource itself...
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    Current device: Palm Pre
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    *sigh*

    gharrod, did you even read the whole thread? The story was retracted and completely refuted by PalmSource itself...
    Gfunk,

    Not to be argumentative, but how many times has PalmSource lied to us over the past 2 years? I would not believe anything that comes out of PalmSource. If it was wrong, why didn't Access come and clarify since they are in the driver's seat and they are are the ones who made the comment?

    But it doesn't matter what Palmsource does anyway. If Palmsource does not provide a Palm on linux, then Palm will. Palmsource has been saying Garnet is end of life for years now, in order to get people to use cobalt. Palm is the one who has been keeping garnet updated and they will continue to do so, until Palm on linux arrives or they have created an alternative.
    Last edited by craigdts; 10/23/2005 at 09:44 AM.
  5. DHart's Avatar
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    #65  
    Perry -

    You're right. That last comment was not necessary. Just my personal opinion, which I still believe to be true. Our personal situations won't change what is happening in the market place - unless our personal situations are the same as most other Treo users. But I don't think so.

    Now I would like to clarify one other point. Palm OS is dead (or at least we can see end of life) despite the denials by Palm and Access. It has come to light that Access bought Palmsource to overlay the User Interface on top of their chosen OS - Linux. So we may see future Treos with the Palm UI that are backward compatible with previous third party software. I hope so.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by craigdts
    Gfunk,

    Not to be argumentative, but how many times has PalmSource lied to us over the past 2 years? I would not believe anything that comes out of PalmSource. If it was wrong, why didn't Access come and clarify since they are in the driver's seat and they are are the ones who made the comment?
    Ahem...okay let's be arguementative. If you re-read the actual article by Brighthand, ACCESS DID CLARIFY THE SITUATION!!!!

    The CBR article is based on an email interview with an Access spokesperson. Access recently acquired PalmSource, the company responsible for developing and licensing the Palm OS.

    According to the spokesperson who was quoted in the article, virtually everything in it is completely incorrect.

    <snip>

    The Access spokesperson said that this assertion is totally wrong, and much of what is in the article is equally incorrect.

    In a response to a request for clarification from Brighthand, the spokesperson said:

    I provided email information to Rik [the author] for the article, and was very surprised at what was actually written. The article is almost completely in error and does not match the information that was provided to Rik.

    There is no plan to kill off any Palm OS. All Palm OS customers, partners, and developers can expect continued support.
    http://www.brighthand.com/article/Palm_OS_Is_NOT_Dead

    FOR GAWDS SAKES, WHAT ELSE DOES ACCESS HAVE TO SAY!?!!

    Also, which particluar lies specifically that PalmSoure made are you taking about? Please be very explicit about these lies b/c I would like to know what you are referring to...

    But it doesn't matter what Palmsource does anyway. If Palmsource does not provide a Palm on linux, then Palm will.
    HUH? How could they do that since Palm no longer controls or makes the OS? Please, please...I implore you to STOP reading Jeff Kirvin's editorials. Seriously, I swear he has single handedly confused and spread soo much misinformation and misunderstanding about the entire PalmOS platform that it is becoming unbearable...

    Palmsource has been saying Garnet is end of life for years now, in order to get people to use cobalt. Palm is the one who has been keeping garnet updated and they will continue to do so, until Palm on linux arrives or they have created an alternative.

    First of all, Palmsource (and now ACCESS) has never said they were going to stop support for Garnet as obviously verified by the above quotes. Secondly, it is obvious, never the less, that Garnet is EOL (not the entire PalmOS platform). The ignorant author in the CBR article automatically assumed that this meant that PalmOS is dead from this statement. But all this states is the obvious for a nearly 3 yr old OS as Access now wants to focus on the development of PL. Palm has been not been hacking and updating FrankenGarnet out of desire, but out of necessity as a result of the limitations of backend driver support in Cobalt.
    Last edited by Gaurav; 10/23/2005 at 11:19 AM.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    Perry -
    Now I would like to clarify one other point. Palm OS is dead (or at least we can see end of life) despite the denials by Palm and Access. It has come to light that Access bought Palmsource to overlay the User Interface on top of their chosen OS - Linux. So we may see future Treos with the Palm UI that are backward compatible with previous third party software. I hope so.
    PalmSource has always said that PL would support PACE for backward compatibity for most 68k legacy apps...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  8. #68  
    I've been gone for a couple days... I'm sorry I missed the excitement. Both the CBR article and the one on Engadget are gone. If anyone has a copy of either, please post or PM. I'd love to read them. I'm curious about what exactly they said to have caused the nonsense in this thread. Since we already know that PalmSource stopped all development on Cobalt long ago, and Garnet much earlier, the only thing Access could do to PalmOS would be to stop work on Palm Linux...
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    Perry -

    You're right. That last comment was not necessary. Just my personal opinion, which I still believe to be true. Our personal situations won't change what is happening in the market place - unless our personal situations are the same as most other Treo users. But I don't think so.

    Now I would like to clarify one other point. Palm OS is dead (or at least we can see end of life) despite the denials by Palm and Access. It has come to light that Access bought Palmsource to overlay the User Interface on top of their chosen OS - Linux. So we may see future Treos with the Palm UI that are backward compatible with previous third party software. I hope so.
    Hey DHart!

    Well put.

    In my mind the PalmOS is not truly dead if an ongoing OS (Palm/Linux) will continue to operate heritage Palm applications. Palm, Palm/Linux, even WM5, as has been stated here before -- it is the user experience that is important -- in the software/hardware combination. As long as that concept keeps moving forward, I will not be disappointed. I guess that is the fear with WM5, if it it takes over and there are not two OSs in competition for the consumer -- that the advancement of the user experience will slow down.

    Cheers, Perry.
  10. #70  
    nope, it was late and I did not read the entire thread...my bad, but my point still stands that maybe they wanted the rights to the interface...intellectual property is sometimes worth more then inventory...
  11. #71  
    Perry - $400? Whoa, you got off easy...

    I've had to buy Snapper Enterprise no less than 3 times.
    Just Snapper can **** you off; Chatter, VolumeCare, Freedom, Agendus and others make it worse.

    But the upside is the Office suite and Mobile Outlook (and Mobile PowerPoint) will be standard on WM5.

    So heck yes for that.
    Unlocked 750v: Voice / Data
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    Also HTC TyTN factory; Palm LifeDrive & TX
    7 year Cingular/PacBell veteran.
  12. DHart's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllVerbatim
    But the upside is the Office suite and Mobile Outlook (and Mobile PowerPoint) will be standard on WM5.

    So heck yes for that.
    Exactly. It's painful, but it's progress. If you can call Office progress. Microsoft's innovation is standardization that allows everyone to communicate easily, seamlessly, dependably.
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    #73  
    I really hope that Access can get Palm/Linux off the ground. I don't mind M$ bloatware on my laptop, because all those XP services that are running all the time really do add value in a corporate environment. But on a handheld, I want a multitasking OS that uses resources efficiently. IMO Linux is the answer.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    $400 in orphaned software is more than a little hiccup. It is not only the cost, but years of learned use. New software will mean the replacement cost and a new learning curve to get to the same comfort level. (That puts a real damper on any new user experience provided by a new device.)
    I had orphaned software and relearning each time when I went from Samsung I-300 to Treo 600 to Treo 650. Some software doesn't work on the new device, some vendors require you to buy a new license, etc. The phone apps worked differently, the hardware features were different, the bugs were different.

    I'm sure the shift to WM will be worse on all fronts, but then the new hardware features it'll no doubt offer will the thing that draws people to it. With a new WM Treo out now, and the 650 being a year old, I have a feeling if there is no new Treo (WM, Garnet, Cobalt, Linux, whatever) out by the end of 2006, it will all be a moot point. The industry will have moved past POS and Treo's. And if there is a new Treo in 2006, many current Treo users will move to it, regardless of OS.
    - Dan Butterfield (dan@butterfields.net)
  15. #75  
    Not that anyone cares about my views on this subject but here it goes:

    The press has said PalmOS is dead. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter much when more articles start repeating this claim.

    This is very much like the Novell NetWare story. For years now, the press has said that NetWare is dead. Whether it was true or not didn't seem to matter and companies started moving away from it. NetWare in fact still is alive but many have "believed the hype". What Novell did was purchased SUSE and now has two OSes. When they bought SUSE, the hype of the death of NetWare came again. What Novell started doing was porting all of their services on top of SUSE. Granted, Novell is having some trouble these days but I think this will work out for them in the end.

    The point of that story is to explain the PalmOS story. The story came out and Gartner is telling businesses to stop buying PalmOS devices.

    Whether Palm exists and an OS really doesn't matter much as it's the services and interface that we really love. If they port all apps to be compatable over a Linux kernal really doesn't matter to me. If this makes the device more stable and multi-task better, then I'm happy with that. If they completely kill the OS, I'll still use my Treo 650 until the apps on it don't fit my needs versus other solutions (or some hardware need).
  16. #76  
    Netware; what's that? Didn't that go out with DOS, Ding Dongs and Dodos?
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by manielse
    Whether Palm exists and an OS really doesn't matter much as it's the services and interface that we really love. If they port all apps to be compatable over a Linux kernal really doesn't matter to me. If this makes the device more stable and multi-task better, then I'm happy with that. If they completely kill the OS, I'll still use my Treo 650 until the apps on it don't fit my needs versus other solutions (or some hardware need).
    I tend to agree, but I can't imagine the negative connotation attached to the Palm name once the public is innundated with rumors that the Palm OS is dead. I mean, I certainly don't want mobile phones to move to a Windows-dominant market.
    Apple iPhone 8GB
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  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder God
    so why did access buy palm os in the first place if they are going to kill it?
    Companies buy technologies all the time to bury them, or because they want to use them internally.
    -Carl Gundel, author of Liberty BASIC
    http://www.libertybasic.com
  19. #79  
    Well, some thoughts on the matter..

    - First, PalmOS always had a small third party microkernel underneath it. Now it's going full-blown with a linux kernel. This doesn't imply _anything_ about the user interface or applications having to change. AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $the$ $driver$ $model$ $for$ $Cobalt$ $was$ $pretty$ $complex$, $and$ $the$ $PDA$ $hardware$ $vendors$ $didn$'$t$ $want$ $to$ $invest$ $that$ $kind$ $of$ $effort$ $in$ $a$ $risky$ $new$ $OS$. ($Despite$ $the$ $name$ $and$ $compatibility$, $cobalt$ $was$ $a$ $huge$ $risk$ -- $I$ $bet$ $it$'$s$ $why$ $Palm$ $is$ $going$ $with$ $windows$ $mobile$, $to$ $hedge$ $their$ $bets$ $if$ $Access$ $screws$ $up$ $cobalt$ $even$ $more$ $than$ $PalmSource$ $did$).

    The linux underpinnings have a simple, well known driver model (it's nearly 30 years old!). Also, lots of hardware already has linux drivers -- lots of hardware vendors co-develop a linux driver along with the hardware for diagnostic reasons. Suddenly, it's easy to get Cobaltix (like the name?) running on your new PDA device. Remember the reference hardware platform PalmSource had out a while back? A prior desperate attempt to get people over the driver model hitch.

    - Second, PalmSource utterly screwed up their handling of PalmOS. That much is obvious. When they split off from Palm, they didn't realize their customer changed. It was originally the consumer, but after the split, it was the PDA vendor -- yet their Cobalt features didn't provide any incentives for an upgrade. Garnet was/is a known-good solution for smartphones. Let's not confuse the market's technology level with the industry's technology level. Despite it's age, most regular people are f'in amazed at what a treo does -- when someone's mind is blown, they stop caring what else is possible.

    Their Linux-based course correction may help, but it's pretty late to the game. However, the fact that Access and Palm were both bidding on PalmSource is a good sign. The fact that Access had the capital and desire to outbid Palm is also a good sign -- they obviously aren't doing it as some attempt to 'save palm' or close in on a liability. Access could always swap platforms - most of a browser's complexity is in the browsing code, not the platform stuff.

    - Third, the press declares one computer company dead a month. It's meaningless. Hell, look at apple. More importantly, when one of these 'dead' companies suddenly gets their act together, the press is more than happy to declare 'The Return of X' or 'X Resurrected.' There is no bad press :-)

    So, my conclusion: PalmOS is definitely down. Maybe it's out altogether. Maybe it's finally stepping back and regrouping, as it should've done 18 months ago. Is it dead? It's not moving, but the body's still warm, and there's still a little breath left in those lungs. Besides, for all the functionality, bells, and whistles, Windows CE is still a complete pain in the *** to use and understand. AND, the market's not really heavy in the state-of-the-art, smartphones are still in the heating up phase. So, PalmOS has some time to get its **** together. It's just amazing how many ****ups it's survived through so far.
  20. vw2002's Avatar
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    #80  
    ed colligan, in a recent interview, conceded that if he had been the CEO at that time, he wouldn't have spun off palmsource.

    I don't think that's a great sign for palm os. its not to mean its finished, but you can interpret that to mean - " damn, we let that get away!!!!"

    so, not a good sign at all for cobalt and the palm os. I think its future is growing dim.
    I gotta have more cowbell
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