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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by 155
    Motorla has a line of Linux handsets and Symbian UIQ handsets that are more popular outside of the US, which definetly qualify as PDA's. As well as the MPX220, which I have owned and I think it qualfies.

    I think the best definition of smartphone is a phone that more than 50% of the users either sign up for an internet plan with or download a non-midp application on. I think that would qualify most devices that most would agree are smartphones.

    I don't think phones like the Nokia 6230 should qualify or other devices where smartphone functions are buried and seldom used.
    Moto sells Linux and Symbian?? So why won't they try to show them over here? They may get some interest. Except for the RAZR, all I ever see is their same limited selection, just repackaged every year. But it's the same lackluster software and similar lackluster designs. And now it looks like they're going to capitalize on the RAZR variations, with the same lackluster software.

    And to Dstrauss, YES the MPX220 IS considered a smartphone by most sources. In fact I think it's WM2003 SE for Smartphone. That pretty much says it all!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    That is interesting speculation, but Palmsource keeps tight very secretly the lisencing agreements it makes with its lisencees...
    This information is actually public since Palm is by far the largest licensee of Palmsource. I believe that Palm pays Palmsource about 3.5% of its hardware revenue as royalty.

    I would also like to add my $0.02 on this discussion of wireless carriers supporting multiple platforms. My first point is simple - larger wireless carriers will want to support multiple platforms for the simple fact of not having Microsoft monopolizing the smartphone market again. They have seen what Microsoft did to the PC market and the carriers will do everything they can to prevent this from happening again.

    My second point is that many of us on this board is forgetting that Blackberry is another platform as well, and all major US carriers support this platform, in addition to the Palm, MW, and Symbian, without any problems.

    The bottom line is that the carriers will support any platforms as long as there is money to be made.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmie Geddes
    Do you guys think Palm's stock will not go up on the Treo 700w? I quoted msmobiles because it showed a rise in Palm's stock. I have always,and will always prefer the Palm OS to Windows Mobile. I just think that Palm's success with the Windows Mobile Treo will also benfit us Palm users. I mean look at what Tyler Faux of PalmAddict did with the sms feature when you ignore a call, Microsoft themselves said Palm could not implement it on a Palm OS Treo, it works just like they said it wouldn't.
    http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/2005/1...t-be-done.html
    ...I thought that whole thing was damn stupid anyway! Not knocking what Tyler's done (I'll probably download it and try it out this afternoon), but when they announced that at the Palm webcast I thought "How stupid. My 650 does that already."
    Granted, I have to wait for the "missed call" screen, but you're talking SECONDS here people! Nothing is that important.
    1. Pick "send sms" option.
    2. Click "quick text" and choose the one you want (customize them ahead of time). Voila! Now I've "sent the boss a text so he knows I'm not ignoring him". Christ man! If your boss is that insecure go find a new job!!!! My boss knows if I can't talk to him its because I'M WORKING which is what he pays me for! I'll call him back as soon as I'm able.
    Geez.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  4. #44  
    Ive said it before, but the fact that they touted something so frivolous as one of the great benefits of WM5 (and remember, it was Palm that said so first) says more about Palm Inc than WM5. They obviously can not say it will be more stable, as that would tacitly admit that POS is less stable, and they could not tout any major advantages (e.g. multi-tasking) because it would impact on POS sales. Having some-one else implement it only makes Palm look bad, and makes it look as if they are putting PalmOS development on the back burner (thy cant exactly add this in to future Garnet releases, can they, after explicitly saying it could not be done under garnet).

    Surur
  5. #45  
    Sad. Palm is either busted(caught in a lie) or incompetent(having someone else show them up) in this SMS case.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  6. #46  
    I also think they are listening to the wrong people when it comes to marketing. How many business professionals really care about sending an 'auto-text' compared to stability, synchronization, etc.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I also think they are listening to the wrong people when it comes to marketing. How many business professionals really care about sending an 'auto-text' compared to stability, synchronization, etc.
    Amen.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  8. #48  
    True auto-text is not a big deal, but I still think it's interesting they got caught in a lie(or incompetence)! So what else are they lying about, if they are? If they'll lie about something this small, they may lie about something big. And if they're incompetent over something this small, what big things did they miss? It may make you wonder.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    But I also agree with Shadow and Dstrauss that the same carrier probably won't carry both Palm 700s.
    If Palm releases a PalmOS-based successor to the 650 with EV-DO and eventually makes it available to all carriers, why do you believe Verizon would refuse to sell it? Why would they want to stick with a model (650) with a lower margin? Why would they go against their strategy of pushing EV-DO to their best data customers? Why would they want to let their competitors offer better products?
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Having some-one else implement it only makes Palm look bad, and makes it look as if they are putting PalmOS development on the back burner (thy cant exactly add this in to future Garnet releases, can they, after explicitly saying it could not be done under garnet).
    Who said that?
  11. #51  
    I find it hard to believe that if they have the exclusive right to sell WM Treo, they are also going to sell the Palm version.
    Doesn't that defeat the contract with MS?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I find it hard to believe that if they have the exclusive right to sell WM Treo, they are also going to sell the Palm version.
    Doesn't that defeat the contract with MS?
    You didn't answer my questions.

    Verizon already sells PalmOS Treos.

    I'll say it again: Verizon already sells PalmOS Treos. After they launch the Windows Treo, Verizon will continue selling PalmOS Treos.

    The world doesn't revolve around Microsoft. And they don't have monopoly power in this market. Not even close. Palm's entire existing product line goes against Microsoft's interests, but they're going to continue selling PalmOS products as long as it makes money for them, despite the new licensing deal with Microsoft.

    As for the Windows Treo exclusivity, that's a matter between Palm and Verizon. Any decision to sell a new PalmOS Treo through Verizon will be made by Palm and Verizon. When the time comes, it'll be in Verizon's interest to sell the new Palm Treo, and it'll be in Palm's interest to let them. And that's all that matters.
  13. #53  
    I know they sell Palms. Took them forever to get the Treo 650. But concerning the new 700p, if there is one, how can they sell both at the same time? You don't think MS will say anything? The agreement may be with Palm, but I bet MS has it's hand in there too. You think they didn't exert any control over this agreement? We're talking MS here, come on! I find it hard to believe MS had no say in the choice of carriers.

    Is there a link somewhere that explains exactly how much control MS had in this?
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 11/28/2005 at 12:03 AM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I know they sell Palms. Took them forever to get the Treo 650. But concerning the new 700p, if there is one, how can they sell both at the same time? You don't think MS will say anything? The agreement may be with Palm, but I bet MS has it's hand in there too. You think they didn't exert any control over this agreement? We're talking MS here, come on! I find it hard to believe MS had no say in the choice of carriers.

    Is there a link somewhere that explains exactly how much control MS had in this?
    ...while I understand where you're coming from, I disagree with your logic. I think they'll sell it, but logically speaking they won't be able to at launch. Remember, all the current rumors point to the 700p being Sprint's exclusively for the first six months, just as the 700w is Verizon's. I think you'll see it on VZW, but not for awhile.
    If the device is truly coming out (I believe it is) then you've got enough PalmOS addicts out here to warrant carrying it. I understand your thoughts on MS being stiff-armed when it comes to business deals, but you're not looking at the big picture. MS is the king of operating systems. They control that market, no question, but in the realm of wireless VZW is much bigger than MS. Yes, they have a tendency to strong arm, and VZW wants that enterprise business WM5 can give them, but none of this will stop their business model. They don't need MS. The free Samsung's will ALWAYS outsell Treo's. Because of this, I'm sure VZW courted MS, gave them some concessions, but I'm not sure they would ever give them the right to tell VZW what model phones they will and won't carry. If they did, it would only be for the extent of their exclusivity, and as I mentioned above, the 700p will be exclusive to another carrier for that time anyway.
    I don't subscribe to the "Palm HAS to release a POS Treo. They're are too many of us not too", but I DO believe that if it is released VZW will want it, because at that point, yes, there ARE guranteed customers.
    That's how I see it.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    You don't think MS will say anything? The agreement may be with Palm, but I bet MS has it's hand in there too. You think they didn't exert any control over this agreement? We're talking MS here, come on! I find it hard to believe MS had no say in the choice of carriers.
    As far as I can tell, an exclusivity agreement would be driven by a few things: 1) Palm's desire to avoid complicating a technically demanding product launch, 2) limited manufacturing capacity at launch, and 3) Verizon's commitment of resources into working with Palm to test the device. It's likely that Verizon has committed to putting marketing $ behind the product in exchange for the exclusivity.

    Microsoft is in the business of selling software. They have no such capacity constraints. It's in their interests to sell their products as broadly as possible. Aside from the additional marketing support, giving exclusivity to one carrier doesn't help them much. It just means fewer Windows Mobile products on the market.

    And even if they wanted to throw their weight around, they don't have monopoly power in the mobile phone market. Their focus in dealing with carriers is making sure their software is compatible and compliant. They can't afford to **** off a carrier. And they're working with Palm because Palm can help Microsoft build their mobile phone OS business. They're not doing Palm a favor by "letting" them build a Windows Treo.

    I think you agree that Microsoft doesn't have the power to stop Palm from building Treos that compete with Microsoft, or to stop Verizon from selling phones without Windows Mobile. Why do you believe they'd have the power to prohibit a device labeled "700p"? What if Palm called it "650b" or "750" instead?
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    I don't subscribe to the "Palm HAS to release a POS Treo. They're are too many of us not too", but I DO believe that if it is released VZW will want it, because at that point, yes, there ARE guranteed customers.
    That's how I see it.
    I do.

    As I've said many times, 100% of their current revenue and profit comes from PalmOS products. Over $1 billion in sales per year and growing. And the PalmOS Treo is driving that growth.

    I don't understand how so many people could believe that Palm, evil or incompetent, would even consider shutting down a very profitable business to launch a Windows Treo.
  17. #57  
    With reference to...

    "I don't understand how so many people could believe that Palm, evil or incompetent, would even consider shutting down a very profitable business to launch a Windows Treo."
    It's not that I think Palm as the manufacturer will make the decision to stop using the PalmOS , it is that I believe wholeheartedly that they will "let the market decide" which models they prefer. That market is only indirectly users (and perhaps developers) like you and me. The primary market for Palm as a manufacturer are the major carriers, all of which are very concerned about protecting their revenue streams in a space where technology is changing the way each of them can compete and/or protect their interests amidst heavy consolidation in the industry. The mature players are setting the pace and the smaller carriers are fewer. Those carriers will dictate which products to bring to market based on those concerns and with an (agreed) increasing amount of personal pda and/or smartphone devices, will not be inclined to offer mutliple versions of the same product when they have so many to choose to carry and/or support.

    Just as in any other retail space, from toasters to pesticides, the retailers (in this case, carriers) will determine which products they bring to market. Not the distributors. Windows Mobile, unfortunately, is a strong player and attractive to the bottom line of the carriers (under the assumptions I posted previously).

    I should note that I discussed this with a friend in the wireless workforce management sector - he iterated that the PalmOS is a fundamental part of many wireless business systems outside of mobile voice communications (inventory management, security systems). The majority of this equipment runs off Palm and Symbian -- virtually none (that he is aware of) operate on Windows Mobile (or it's previous name, CE). Perhaps a consumer "standard" will emerge seperately from a business standard -- as is the case in standard operating systems.
    Give a man fire, he's warm for a day.
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  18. #58  
    Thanks for the thoughtful response.

    You said that carriers "will not be inclined to offer multiple versions of the same product." I've heard that phrase a few times in this forum to support the view that Verizon will not sell a 700p. But it just makes no sense to say that a 650 wouldn't conflict with the 700w, but a 700p would. What product mix problem would suddenly appear when Verizon replaces the Treo 650 with the Treo 700p?

    A Treo with a camera and a Treo without a camera are different versions of the same product. A PalmOS Treo and a Windows Treo are two different products, whether you're talking about the 650/700w or the 700p/700w.

    As for the customer, you're right that the carriers are Palm's direct customers, but the carriers don't dictate the product mix. That's driven by the customers of the carriers. You correctly point out that there are many corporate installations of Palm devices. If Verizon's large corporate customers want PalmOS Treos, Verizon will support PalmOS Treos.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    As for the customer, you're right that the carriers are Palm's direct customers, but the carriers don't dictate the product mix. That's driven by the customers of the carriers. You correctly point out that there are many corporate installations of Palm devices. If Verizon's large corporate customers want PalmOS Treos, Verizon will support PalmOS Treos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Colligan
    And, of course, Verizon Wireless has been an equal partner, in fact, have driven us to do this product. They're the first ones that came to us and said, hey, you know, if we could have a Windows, if you could do that Palm experience on Windows Mobile, wouldn't that be a great idea. And we said, sure, yes, it would be a great idea. Let's get them to work this out. And Verizon Wireless has been with us all the way, and really provided a great commitment. And, of course, has built an incredible network, EVDO network that's coming out around the country that Denny will speak about is just second to none. And, Denny, thank you for the commitment there.
    http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/s...26Mobility.asp

    If it wasnt for Verizon, there would be NO WM Treo. I think they are very much in charge of the product mix.

    Surur
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    ...while I understand where you're coming from, I disagree with your logic. I think they'll sell it, but logically speaking they won't be able to at launch. Remember, all the current rumors point to the 700p being Sprint's exclusively for the first six months, just as the 700w is Verizon's. I think you'll see it on VZW, but not for awhile.
    If the device is truly coming out (I believe it is) then you've got enough PalmOS addicts out here to warrant carrying it. I understand your thoughts on MS being stiff-armed when it comes to business deals, but you're not looking at the big picture. MS is the king of operating systems. They control that market, no question, but in the realm of wireless VZW is much bigger than MS. Yes, they have a tendency to strong arm, and VZW wants that enterprise business WM5 can give them, but none of this will stop their business model. They don't need MS. The free Samsung's will ALWAYS outsell Treo's. Because of this, I'm sure VZW courted MS, gave them some concessions, but I'm not sure they would ever give them the right to tell VZW what model phones they will and won't carry. If they did, it would only be for the extent of their exclusivity, and as I mentioned above, the 700p will be exclusive to another carrier for that time anyway.
    THAT'S close to what I've been trying to say, although apparently not very well. I don't think MS will keep quiet about the new Palm Treo being sold right alongside the WM version as long as there's a WM exclusive arrangement.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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