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  1. #21  
    dstrauss, the Treo's success is much more emotional than rational. If Palm suddenly switched over to 100% WM their sales would drop 75% at least. Look at how long Sony lovers hung on to their clie's.

    Outside of USA there is no such attachment, which is why WM outsells POS 2:1 at least (going on to 3:1). There MS has to struggle against the brand loyalty of Sony Ericsson and Nokia. They are making slow progress however, primarily by appealing to carriers, and word of mouth by geeks/business users who love powerful devices.

    Surur
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    dstrauss, the Treo's success is much more emotional than rational. If Palm suddenly switched over to 100% WM their sales would drop 75% at least. Look at how long Sony lovers hung on to their clie's.

    Outside of USA there is no such attachment, which is why WM outsells POS 2:1 at least (going on to 3:1). There MS has to struggle against the brand loyalty of Sony Ericsson and Nokia. They are making slow progress however, primarily by appealing to carriers, and word of mouth by geeks/business users who love powerful devices.

    Surur
    I still have trouble believing their success in the smartphone space is OS driven to the extent of 75%. They were the first real smartphones (Samsung i300, 330, i500; Kyocera ???; Treo 180, 270, 300, 600, 650) while WM and Symbian were basically nowhere devices. However, MANY of the Treo users I've known, like past Pam PDA users, had no idea there was third party loadable software out there. That was for us Treocental hugging geeks who were willing to fight the OS file system ad nauseum and put up with third party loader programs to run programs from the SD cards. Talk about a throwback to EMM and 386 harware.

    If it looks like a Treo and runs Windows, I don't think anyone but us diehards on Treocentral will rail about it. I could very well be wrong, but I still say it makes NO economic sense for them to dual track development the way they are doing just to placate us diehards.

    PARTICULARLY, when the rumored Hollywood may blow the doors off their Treo sales. Who wouldn't want a Treo without the antennae that's thinner, narrower, and lighter (hopefully with some real memory).
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  3. #23  
    Whatever the wisdom of it is, the job listings speak for themselves. They plan to (re)write PIM's, browsers, e-mail clients etc.

    Smartphone Browser Software Engineer Job code: 334
    Job Category: Engineering

    Job Description:

    Duties/Responsibilities:

    Design and implement the wireless web browser for our future smartphone and handheld products

    Help invent new ways to improve the performance and layout of web content on mobile devices

    Work collaboratively with a multidisciplinary team to successfully take the software through the entire development cycle (design, implementation, maintenance)

    Help define and implement web-based and other applications and technologies for our mobile devices

    Respond to customer and developer issues inside and outside of the company, troubleshoot problems, and respond with recommendations, patches or upgrades as appropriate


    Qualifications:

    2+ years of software engineering experience desired


    Skills/Experience:

    Experience in several software projects from design through delivery; demonstrated design skills; proficient C and C++ coding and debugging skills, good problem solving skills

    Project experience designing and implementing software user interfaces

    Knowledge of markup languages and data transport protocols, such as HTML, CSS, Javascript, WML, XHTML, DHTML, XML, TCP/IP, HTTP, and SSL

    Demonstrated success working in collaborative team projects

    Excellent communication skills, both verbal and written

    Significant project experience developing software for Palm OS, UNIX/Linux, or similar embedded platforms; knowledge of broad areas of software technology

    Experience with network communications application development, specifically web browsers, messaging (mail, SMS, IM), voice applications or camera (imaging) applications


    Education:

    B.S. in Computer Science, or equivalent
    http://www.maxhire.net/clients/MH160...?reference=334

    Software Engineer, Email Applications Job code: 957
    Job Category: Engineering

    Job Description:
    Title:

    Software Engineer


    Overview:

    The successful candidate will play a key role in the development of groupware application products for Palm Inc.'s handheld and smartphone devices. Work as part of a team to develop and maintain Email applications. Candidate will be actively involved in all aspects of the software development lifecycle.


    Duties/Responsibilities:

    Develop and improve existing features in Email application. Take existing designs and create elegant and robust implementation.

    Debug existing features to improve overall product quality.

    Using User Centric Design principles, identify opportunities to improve the overall usability of the application.

    Grow into a role that will utilize marketing requirements to define, design and implement new product capabilities.


    Qualifications:

    2-5 years of software product development experience.
    Experience with producing consumer based applications, especially email a plus.
    Experience with Palm OS a plus
    Experience with Linux a plus.

    Skills/Experience:

    - Experience in product development
    - C and C++ coding and debugging skills
    - Proven problem solving skills.
    - Proven object oriented analysis and coding skills.
    - Demonstrated success working in collaborative team projects.
    - Excellent communication skills, both verbal and written with the ability to communicate technical concepts clearly and effectively across multiple organizations
    - Demonstrated commitment to quality.


    Education:

    B.S. in Computer Science, or equivalent
    http://www.maxhire.net/clients/MH160...?reference=957
    Sounds like a brief to port existing software to another (linux) platform.

    They are certainly ambition, which may mean slippage.

    Surur
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    Rome mentioned in another thread that Palm has been hiring Linux engineers and programmers. Here's some evidence to support that.

    I did a search on Palm's job database for "Linux" and came up with 16 jobs. Some list Linux pretty innocently along with Windows and Mac experience; others explicitly require Linux programming knowledge.

    Some excerpts from the job descriptions:
    There's one obvious explanation - that Palm will be producing a Cobalt/Linux Treo. Are there other possible explanations that I'm missing?


    I don't think Palm is EVER going to release it's own Linux distro for pda's...not gonna happen. Palm is simply hiring Linux devs in anticipation for ALP, that's all. Since Palm is a hardware OEM, it must write all it's own linux drivers etc like any other OEM. That is why there are hiring Linux devs...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  5. #25  
    Unlikely, as that is not what they are advertising for. They are advertising for apps writers, not driver writers.

    Surur
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Unlikely, as that is not what they are advertising for. They are advertising for apps writers, not driver writers.

    Surur
    Palm Inc. develops a lot of its own apps for its Treos - phone, IM, camera, MMS, et al.

    So if they release a Treo based on ALP, they need Linux app developers.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Unlikely, as that is not what they are advertising for. They are advertising for apps writers, not driver writers.

    Surur
    Do you realize how much of the code on the Treo is customized by Palm including the camera app, versamail, carrier customizations, wireless stacks etc? All of this and more will probably have to be re-written by Palm for either max or GTK+ (probably the latter) in anticipation for ALP.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  8. #28  
    Then they might as well do it all themselves. Think about it. The kernel is free, they dont need Access to get that. According to you they will need to write their own drivers. Again, Access wont help them with that. Now they are writing their own e-mail, messaging and web browser. They already have a 68k emulator. What exactly do they need Access for again? Add to this that there is no developer kit yet for ALP, what exactly will these developers be writing to?

    Sorry, there is only one logical interpretation. Palm is doing their own PalmLinux, ALP be damned.

    Surur
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Then they might as well do it all themselves. Think about it. The kernel is free, they dont need Access to get that. According to you they will need to write their own drivers. Again, Access wont help them with that. Now they are writing their own e-mail, messaging and web browser. They already have a 68k emulator. What exactly do they need Access for again? Add to this that there is no developer kit yet for ALP, what exactly will these developers be writing to?

    Sorry, there is only one logical interpretation. Palm is doing their own PalmLinux, ALP be damned.

    Surur
    Aren't you over reaching a bit? If Palm has already done so much customization on FrankenGarnet, why not also on ALP? Also, have proprietary bundled email client and camera app is FAR FAR different that creating your own RTOS!!

    The truth is Palm is NOT going to create their own version of mobile Linux distro, nor are they going to forever cling to dying FrankenGarnet like some delusional folks like JK etc believe. The 700p and Lowrider will probably be the last FrankenGarnet (at least hopefully) Treos that Palm ever releases. The others will all be WM. Whether there will be FrankenGarnet TX2 or LD2 is debatleable but probable. Palm will use this ancient POS (pun intended) until 2007 when ALP will finally be launched. IF that does NOT happen, then that means ALP failed and end of story... THEN, and only then imo could there be a possibility of a proprieatary OS from Palm other than ALP or WM. But that is a far and long time away...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  10. #30  
    I dont see why not. Shadowmite already has Linux GPE running on his Treo, and that is blind, without the hardware specs. Do you really think it would be such a struggle to get a functional Linux distribution for PalmOS?

    Also, what does Palm gain from going with ALP? They will end up paying a big license fee ($20 -50 000 000 /year) for something which they could have gotten essentially royalty free. On top of that they would be facilitating the broadening of the POS platform with other licensees, which does not help them one bit. Why should they support their competitors.

    Sorry Gfunk. You need to explain why its a better idea for Palm, Inc. to wait for ALP than to take matters in their own hands. I can certainly give you 10 reasons why its better they go their own way.

    Surur
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Then they might as well do it all themselves. Think about it. The kernel is free, they dont need Access to get that. According to you they will need to write their own drivers. Again, Access wont help them with that. Now they are writing their own e-mail, messaging and web browser. They already have a 68k emulator. What exactly do they need Access for again? Add to this that there is no developer kit yet for ALP, what exactly will these developers be writing to?

    Sorry, there is only one logical interpretation. Palm is doing their own PalmLinux, ALP be damned.

    Surur
    A well reasoned conclusion, the only thing I wonder is if they are gonna use this as a hammer to say "well we'll take your ALP but only at $12 a unit....otehrwise we use our own."
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I dont see why not. Shadowmite already has Linux GPE running on his Treo, and that is blind, without the hardware specs. Do you really think it would be such a struggle to get a functional Linux distribution for PalmOS?
    Sorry, but imo you got to be retarded to think having a bunch of enthusiasts porting GPE onto the Treo is equivalent to producing a full fledged, stable and thorough OS with broad platform and backward compatibility. I'm sure PalmSource engineers probably had proof concept palm-linux working on early on, but that is FAR FAR different than releasing a commercial grade OS to market...puleeaze.....

    Seriously, I don't know what you guys are smoking. You've been reading too much VOR, pikesoft, etc over at PIC probably I dunno...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    dstrauss, the Treo's success is much more emotional than rational. If Palm suddenly switched over to 100% WM their sales would drop 75% at least. Look at how long Sony lovers hung on to their clie's.

    Outside of USA there is no such attachment, which is why WM outsells POS 2:1 at least (going on to 3:1). There MS has to struggle against the brand loyalty of Sony Ericsson and Nokia. They are making slow progress however, primarily by appealing to carriers, and word of mouth by geeks/business users who love powerful devices.

    Surur
    emotional??? That's a first, even for you, surur. Using your logic, I guess I can conclude that Nokia's success with symbian smartphone in Europe must be of the emotional nature as well, since there is no such emtional attachment for symbian here in the U.S..
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    emotional??? That's a first, even for you, surur. Using your logic, I guess I can conclude that Nokia's success with symbian smartphone in Europe must be of the emotional nature as well, since there is no such emtional attachment for symbian here in the U.S..
    Yep, its all Nokia brand. Symbian shipped 31 million devices this year, yet they only have 5500 software tittles on Handango. Their latest move (S60 v3) completely destroyed compatibility with all their old software, needing a full re-compile. Do you think a proper platform could get away with that? Nokia shipped 265 million phones in 2005. The 28 million Symbian phones (90% of the Symbian total) they shipped was just scum lifted by the wave. If Nokia wasn't in the game POS would outship Symbian.

    Answer your question?

    Surur
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    They will end up paying a big license fee ($20 -50,000,000 /year)
    Not to play devil's advocate, but where did you get the info on licensing costs? I was curious how much it costs them...

    You can pay a LOT of software engineers for that amount...and pocket the difference. If I was Ed Colligan, I'd have a team on it checking the feasibility of it (if he hasn't already) Though it is odd that they spun off the OS in the first place if this was the ultimate goal, it seems they could have saved themselves a lot of money...I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

    <a href="http://www.wapswap.com/">
    <img src="http://wapswap.com/blog/images/logo_only.jpg" border="0"></a>
    built for easy acess
  16. #36  
    When Palm renewed their PalmOS license in 2005 till 2009, this was the deal.

    PalmSource will receive minimum royalty commitments of $148.5 million and source code license fees in the amount of $3.2 million over the remaining course of the contract as follows. The minimum annual royalty commitments for the contract years ending December 3, 2005 and 2006 remain unchanged from the Prior Agreement at $41.0 million and $42.5 million, respectively. The minimum annual royalty commitments under the extended term of the SARSLA for the contract years ending December 3, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $35 million, $20 million and $10 million, respectively, subject to the Company meeting certain development milestones.
    Thats $148.5 million between 2005 and 2009. Thats nearly $30 million/year. The cost of the license decreases as POS obviously depreciates with age. However for a new ALP license, especially if the Treo is very popular, they will obviously charge more again.

    If Palm goes for a per device license, and they sell 5 million Treo's, at a conservative $10 per device, thats still $50 million/year. Even at half that its still $25 million/year.If they own the OS they save that money. Thats the salary of a few hundred Linux hackers/year (and many more in Asia ).

    Symbian currently charges $7.50 / device for the first 2 million devices, and then $5/device after this. Even under that license Palm would have to pay $30 million for 5 million Treo's/year. Nokia is estimated to have paid Symbian $140 million in 2005. Thats up from $55 million the year before. Why do you think the Nokia 770 is Linux? If that experiment succeeds they could drop Symbian like a hot potato. I believe Microsoft charges between $12-16/device, but then you get components you have to license separately included, such as a web browser (blazer in POS), media player (Ptunes in POS) and Office Suite (Docs to Go).

    License fees for the OS is obviously a major cost for OEM's, which the real reason why Linux is such a threat to the various closed mobile OS's. PalmSource (before acquisition) has 518 employees. Palm has 700+, 80% programmers. If PalmSource can pull it off, so can Palm. The original creators of PalmOS are on their payroll, for heaven's sake. Pur-leeze indeed. Its funny, but I dont find Gfunk's argument (or lack of it) convincing.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 03/28/2006 at 03:40 AM.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Yep, its all Nokia brand. Symbian shipped 31 million devices this year, yet they only have 5500 software tittles on Handango. Their latest move (S60 v3) completely destroyed compatibility with all their old software, needing a full re-compile. Do you think a proper platform could get away with that? Nokia shipped 265 million phones in 2005. The 28 million Symbian phones (90% of the Symbian total) they shipped was just scum lifted by the wave. If Nokia wasn't in the game POS would outship Symbian.

    Answer your question?

    Surur
    No sure if you answered anything, other than giving me a lot of stats that prove nothing. You are telling me that millions of people out there are buying Palm OS and Symbian purely on emotion, while majority of people who buy WM devices are buying them with logic and reasons???

    How about Blackberries? They have the fewest third-party software support, but corporations love them. Did all the IT departments buy them on emotion as well?
  18. #38  
    Rome, I cant be blamed for your inability to draw inference from the data presented. Its simple, these phones are not being bought to use as smartphones. If they were the >50 million devices out there would support a much larger ecosystem than 5500 apps. They are being bought as nice dumb phones.

    Blackberries are just big two way pagers. They obviously work very well at this, but then most two way pagers do.

    My thesis is simple:- Branding is very important. Do you disagree?

    Treo PalmOS - loyalty, simple, ease of use, reliability (damaged a lot recently), American, underdog, Zen
    Nokia - huge, reliable, good quality, safe.
    WM - Powerful, flexible, cutting edge, works well with windows, has MS behind it.

    I prefer a brand which encourages technical innovation. That way I get my tech fix years before POS users.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 03/28/2006 at 12:57 PM.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by ButtUglyJeff
    You know Linux can be easily given a PalmOS feel...............
    I'm sure it can be done - and easily at that - but if we go by our
    experiences with Linux for the desktop PC you'll know how pathetic,
    stupid, miserable, pitiable, ridiculous, silly, unnatural, artificial,
    grotesque and contemptible (that's my BDicty at work) the attempts
    to mimic the Windows look-and-feel are.

    It'll all be slow to begin with of-course.

    Then there will be "holes" in the user interface from where one can
    catch unpleasant glimpses of the Linux innards at work.

    I feel that Linux by itself can have an interface that is both pleasing,
    robust and natural without having to mimic PalmOS.

    - mvk
    Game over!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Rome, I cant be blamed for your inability to draw inference from the data presented. Its simple, these phones are not being bought to use as smartphones. If they were the >50 million devices out there would support a much larger ecosystem than 5500 apps. They are being bought as nice dumb phones.

    Blackberries are just big two way pagers. They obviously work very well at this, but then most two way pagers do.

    My thesis is simple:- Branding is very important. Do you disagree?

    Treo PalmOS - loyalty, simple, ease of use, reliability (damaged a lot recently), American, underdog, Zen
    Nokia - huge, reliable, good quality, safe.
    WM - Powerful, flexible, cutting edge, works well with windows, has MS behind it.

    I prefer a brand which encourages technical innovation. That way I get my tech fix years before POS users.

    Surur
    Really??? You data mean nothing to most people except for a Microsoft fan boy. Let me try to understand your logic here:

    - The winning smartphone platform must have a lot of third-party software.
    - The smartphone platform with the largest number of third-party software will win
    - More features equal to technological leadership, which will turn into market leadership
    - Smartphone buyers who bought an OS platform that has fewer third-party software than MW must be using their smartphones as dumb phones.
    - Since BB has the fewest third party software among all the major platforms, BB is, therefore, nothing but a two-way pager.

    There is nothing wrong this logic, except that it is the "PC" logic. You are making the assumption that the smartphone market will evolve just like the PC market did 20 years. I guess you don't think outside the box much, do you? I see the future differently. My smartphone future consists of many different platforms, many different form factors, and many different vendors. The one-platform PC era is over, my friend. Microsoft will not be able to monopolize the smart device market like it did to the PC market. Only time will tell who is right on this.

    As for your branding thesis, I was not impressed either. First, you were comparing apples to oranges....you compared a hardware's software brand (Treo Palm OS) to a hardware brand (Nokia) and then to a pure software brand (WM). So which branding is it? Hardware or software? Second, branding is certainly very important but it is not everything. A brand without the right product means absolutely nothing. Case in point – Disney…strong brand in the animated picture market but has not come out with a hit in ages, and that's why they had to buy Pixar.

    Last but certainly not the least; let's look at the leading smartphone platforms in various geographies around the world:

    Asia - Linux
    North America - Palm or Blackberry, your pick
    Europe - Symbian

    No emotion here, just the facts.
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