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  1.    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Just to put in my .02 here, there is no reason garnet can't run EVDO. It's a seperate radio for the most part (the way the ppc-6700 did it for instance) and as such can be controlled in the same way palmos is able to handle wifi. It requires no more power than wifi does, actually, quite a bit less. The only problem is the phone application and the system core would need to be updated to handle the switching between the two carrier signals.
    Shadow, do you know what kind of radio or the manufacturer of the radio that will be used in the WM Treo 700? It would be interesting to find out if the WM Treo uses a single backward compatible radio or two separate ones. In any case, I think it would be pretty probable that Palm would use the same radio in both the WM and Palm versions of the Treo 700. Also the issue not with power consumption concerning the cdma radio. In fact, power concerns are probably the reason why Palm didn't integrate wifi, not the other way around. But I think you greatly over estimate the ease of creating these telephony libraries need in a device like the Treo.

    There is zero reason to believe cobalt is a must. Actually, based on my knowledge, I'd say cobalt is never going to happen, it has too many flaws due to the sheer design of palm os. The scary thing is it's not even true multitasking either, they still implemented a hack to accomplish the appearance of it. In my opinion, cobalt is the worst mistake palm ever made.
    Interesting, most of the articles I've read indicate the Cobalt is a true pre-emptive OS. True it is multithreading, not multitasking, but there is an arguement for this:

    Why PalmSource May be write about Multitasking

    Also, I think the concensus about the failure of PalmSource to get any lisencees to adopt Coblat, was more to do with underlying driver support and economic concerns than anything technical about the OS itself:

    Can Linux Put PalmSource back on Top?
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  2.    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by craigdts
    I'm pretty sure were going to see Garnet in our next treo. I remember reading that Access is doing something to prepare NetFront (or whatever their browser is called) for Garnet. Which tells me that Garnet is what palm and others are interested in.

    I would love to see a Cobalt device . . . but I just don't hold out much hope for it anymore. If it was worth using then Palmsource would not have abandoned it in favor of a linux palm OS.

    According to reports at the time of the merger announcement, Access spokesman stated they would try to incorporate Netfront browser into Garnet:

    Eventually, Access said its plan is to combine its Linux-based NetFront browser with the Palm OS version 5x--also known as Garnet. The representative said Access may even revisit the Palm OS version 6, known as Cobalt, which was not broadly licensed by PalmSource.
    http://beta.news.com.com/PalmSource+...-5857082.html?

    The reason why they won't have to do this with Coblat, is b/c Browser 3.0 for Coblat is already based on Netfront:

    http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7165
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  3. #63  
    I'm a little light on the Cobalt/Linux knowledge, but as I understand it, the OS that PalmSource has been developing based on Linux is going to have a Cobalt "layer" (don't know if that's the right term) on it... So it's not really a matter of abandoning Cobalt in favor of Linux, because they're keeping Cobalt either way.

    Right??
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    I'm a little light on the Cobalt/Linux knowledge, but as I understand it, the OS that PalmSource has been developing based on Linux is going to have a Cobalt "layer" (don't know if that's the right term) on it... So it's not really a matter of abandoning Cobalt in favor of Linux, because they're keeping Cobalt either way.

    Right??
    You are right. Furthermore

    1) Linux program CAN run on Cobalt over Linux if it has no UI or the developer port its UI part to Cobalt.
    2) The PalmOS-Protein API program built for pure Cobalt device, NEED to be recompile for Cobalt over Linux system. That is to say, Cobalt program and COL one are not binary compatible. This will probably prevent PalmOS licensees, especially Palm. Inc, from releasing any pure Cobalt device. Otherwise, they must deal with the INCOMPATIBILITY issue when customer upgrade a pure Cobalt device to a COL one.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Exactly, suspended is NOT multitasking, true multitasking will have the apps all running at the same time. Palm OS can not do this, so it "fakes" it by using events to trigger a app to run, and another to suspend... But only one task is running at any given time.
    If you have only one CPU then you have to suspend one task to run another. Modern operating systems do this all the time. Ie linux or windows xp.

    And one of the things that triggers a task-switch is if the running task is waiting for an event. Then other tasks may run until that event happens.

    What PalmOS/Garnet does is to depend on the tasks to behave and thus multitask. Cobalt and linux and others force these task switches and therefore multitasks much better.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by christine
    If you have only one CPU then you have to suspend one task to run another. Modern operating systems do this all the time. Ie linux or windows xp.

    And one of the things that triggers a task-switch is if the running task is waiting for an event. Then other tasks may run until that event happens.

    What PalmOS/Garnet does is to depend on the tasks to behave and thus multitask. Cobalt and linux and others force these task switches and therefore multitasks much better.
    Cooperative multi-tasking is normally used where the hardware does not have an interrupt scheme or function.

    The problem with cooperative multi-tasking is that its success depends upon the fact that most programs cooperate. Not too difficult for tens of programs from a handful of sources. Not likely for hundreds of programs from tens of sources.
  7. #67  
    GFunkMagic: By power, I meant processing power...

    whmurray: agreed, with the nature of the palm operating system and the programs already made for it, it's fairly obvious the programs already have problems just handling events properly. Just imagine what will happen with cobalt!

    I hope I'm wrong, and one day palm releases a new palm device that's running some true pre-emptive OS, but none of the existing programs will run on it unless they enable some emulation layer which will slow it all down. The best thing that could happen to palm os is to resdesign it completely to have the same look and feel but a completely new programming api and style. Everything changes, it's just a matter of when.

    As for CPU execution pathways, most modern day cpu's are starting to execute multiple instructions at once, but yes, for the most part forced switched tasks are the way to go.
    Last edited by shadowmite; 10/06/2005 at 09:03 AM.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    GFunkMagic: By power, I meant processing power...

    whmurray: agreed, with the nature of the palm operating system and the programs already made for it, it's fairly obvious the programs already have problems just handling events properly. Just imagine what will happen with cobalt!

    I hope I'm wrong, and one day palm releases a new palm device that's running some true pre-emptive OS, but none of the existing programs will run on it unless they enable some emulation layer which will slow it all down. The best thing that could happen to palm os is to resdesign it completely to have the same look and feel but a completely new programming api and style. Everything changes, it's just a matter of when.

    As for CPU execution pathways, most modern day cpu's are starting to execute multiple instructions at once, but yes, for the most part forced switched tasks are the way to go.
    Palm has shown willingness to orphan application programs and even developers in the name of new products. I am on my sixth Palm Product and each new one has orphaned applications, many of which have never seen the light of day again.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    ...I hope I'm wrong, and one day palm releases a new palm device that's running some true pre-emptive OS, but none of the existing programs will run on it unless they enable some emulation layer which will slow it all down. The best thing that could happen to palm os is to resdesign it completely to have the same look and feel but a completely new programming api and style. Everything changes, it's just a matter of when...
    And this summarizes my concern exactly - why would Palm invest in a ground up redesign of the OS if WM5 delivers this capability? Isn't it better, cheaper, and more efficient to move these users to the WM5.xx OS than to try to duplicate its capabilities via re-write and/or emulation? How many times during the press conference did Cooligan say that WM5 lets them do things now that they can't do on their existing system?

    This is CPM giving way to MSDOS all over again.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Thus assuming support for a 1xEvDo radio and thusly the need for Cobalt based PalmOS, I think it's possible to deduce now the specs of the next gen PalmOS Treo which imo will almost completely resemble the specs of the WM Treo 700 (with exception to a 320x320 rez screenie).

    Any thoughts?
    I think that's an optimistic take on it.

    The more likely scenario, however, is that there will simply never be another PalmOS Treo.

    Verizon is paying enormous sums of money for an exclusive license to the 700w. Why? Because Sprint + Nextel = Vision/EVDO Blackberry. That's a direct shot across the bow of VZW's enormous corporate market, and since VZW doesn't want to be just another blackberry reseller, they need to have a competitive product. Enter Palm, which has the only other popular smartphone/im/email product, and is small and cash-strapped enough that VZW can dictate terms. Garnet can't be made to work with EVDO and VZW doesn't want to bother trying to make Cobalt work with WirelessSync... so WinMobile it is. (Palm's management, weary of the endless goat rodeo at PalmSource, probably didn't require too much arm-twisting.)

    It sucks, but I can't blame Palm for following the money.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    And this summarizes my concern exactly - why would Palm invest in a ground up redesign of the OS if WM5 delivers this capability? Isn't it better, cheaper, and more efficient to move these users to the WM5.xx OS than to try to duplicate its capabilities via re-write and/or emulation?
    No! Palm would retain some fraction of the customers that migrate to WM. But it gets to keep pretty much all of the customers who stay with PalmOS. That's a billion dollars in revenue. What would you do? Share it, or hold on to it?


    How many times during the press conference did Cooligan say that WM5 lets them do things now that they can't do on their existing system?

    This is CPM giving way to MSDOS all over again.
    How many times did he say that this is about growth and adding new customers?

    Btw, are you deliberately misspelling his name? If it's a joke, I don't get it...
  12. pump142's Avatar
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    #72  
    working mp3 players, not ones who are buggy and run into conflicts..
    I was a lightwav usewr for over a year till it went south,
    then a ringo user user for a month.. again south..
    now trying mring..
    thats alot of friggin money I spent 3rd party for something my kyo7135 did natively very well
  13. #73  
    What does this mean?

    http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysi...406/sight-palm

    However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed. Current models run an ageing version of the Palm platform, and to extend this to match the 3G network support in Windows Mobile 5.0 may prove costly.
    If firms will not buy Palm OS handsets, Palm may simply decide to cut its losses and ship only Microsoft-based models once the Treo 600 and Treo 650 reach end-of-life."

    "While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said."
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    Btw, are you deliberately misspelling his name? If it's a joke, I don't get it...
    No, just my mistake. My apologies to Mr. Colligan (and you of course).

    PS - you're wrong. End times are near for Palm OS - they won't be able to get Frankengarnet to duplicate what WM5 can do, and Sprint/Cingular won't push a lower grade product for them.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by craigdts
    What does this mean?

    http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysi...406/sight-palm

    However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed. Current models run an ageing version of the Palm platform, and to extend this to match the 3G network support in Windows Mobile 5.0 may prove costly.
    If firms will not buy Palm OS handsets, Palm may simply decide to cut its losses and ship only Microsoft-based models once the Treo 600 and Treo 650 reach end-of-life."

    "While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said."
    If Palm OS were so dead, then why:

    - did Palm bid for Palmsource?
    - did Palm extend its contract with Palmsource till the end of 2009?

    Was Palm angry with its own money?
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    If Palm OS were so dead, then why:

    - did Palm bid for Palmsource?
    - did Palm extend its contract with Palmsource till the end of 2009?

    Was Palm angry with its own money?
    Palm (PalmOne) bid for PalmSource because THEY could have salvaged it. They are the coders that made the majority of #G integration happen and had the best coders available for the palm os platform. They most likely would have pulled cobalt out of it's grave and re-vived it. But Access on the other hand has a different agenda, what that is I have a few guesses, but they are just a educated guess.

    As for why palm extended, it's buisness, they are selling the products, it's been successful so far. Why not make sure they still have the deal before it gets sold to someone else just in case...

    I really don't think we have seen the end of palm os, but I believe we have seen the end of it as a competitive OS trying for 1st place.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    But Access on the other hand has a different agenda, what that is I have a few guesses, but they are just a educated guess.
    I'm curious now, what are they?
  18. #78  
    from the article: "However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed."

    That directly contradicts what Palm has said. Either Palm is lying, or this guy is wrong.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    No, just my mistake. My apologies to Mr. Colligan (and you of course).

    PS - you're wrong. End times are near for Palm OS - they won't be able to get Frankengarnet to duplicate what WM5 can do, and Sprint/Cingular won't push a lower grade product for them.
    Just curious, if they produce a Treo 700p, with specs similar to the 700w, except with a 320x320 screen, would you buy it?
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    Just curious, if they produce a Treo 700p, with specs similar to the 700w, except with a 320x320 screen, would you buy it?
    YES!!! My 650 is perfect, except it is missing EV-DO. If better bluetooth, an SD slot that can take a 4gb card, a faster processor and more memory come along with it . . . . I guess I will just have to accept that.

    Cheers, Perry.
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