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  1. #101  
    Archie,
    The crackpipe runneth over.

    Next was a cool, but in the end, irrelevant R&D project that Jobs was able to convince Apple to buy at a pretty penny. (which I don't begrudge him for - good for him).

    Re: your 3 points:
    :
    1.) Battery life - Funny coming from a guy irrationally cheerleading a company that had a battery boodoggle with the iPod.

    This has always presented challenges, regardless of platform. But technology innovations address this. Oh, and Apple will not be doing those innovations (nor MS).

    2.) Software interface/ease of use - This is important. iTunes has a good interface, as is the iPod. But what is your point? That the Apple UI for converged devices will be better than anything that comes out? Maybe.

    3.) "iPod users want to define the terms and conditions of their life and this includes the interuptions that may occur while listening to the soundtrack of their life. Most iPod users are professionals who are voluntarily excluding themselves from the discourse of others." - This is drivel and unrelated to the technology trend.

    It shows typical Apple-fanatic arrongance, thinking iPod users are somehow different that other users.

    'Soundtrack of their lives' - What is this, a Hallmark commercial. If you are going to lift a tag line, at least credit it.

    Oh, and most iPod users are not professionals. Most are teens and college students.

    And like most people listening to music on the subway, the simple answer is they are tuning out the riff-raff around them. (and THAT is why they are so popular in NYC).
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog
    I don't know if I fully agree with Mr. Gates... there will always be certain members of the population who will not want 1 device.... and as long as those devices are retailing at $500 + without a plan, a Free phone and $100/$200 ipod will go a long way.
    Well, what he doesn't say is that while convergence devices are wonderful they also involve compromise. Just look at the quality of most cameras in cell phones and smart phones to see my point. Even the best ones are absolutely no match for an actual camera. And some of the more extreme examples of good cameras in phones (have you see the model at one show that has an extending lens?) sacrifice their usability as a phone.

    I can easily see how someone might choose to make the compromise to play digital music on a smart phone (or even streaming media)... but it will absolutely not be a universal "me too" thing, I suspect... any more than Nikon or Cannon have to worry about cell phone cameras. Convergence requires compromise in features. I would think that the two most critical for the Treo would be stability (since POS ... sorry PalmOS... doesn't provided a decent multiprocessing environment... you know, in case you might actually use the PHONE while playing music?) and battery life. A a general device, the Treo just isn't going to be as efficient with it's resources as a defice tuned for the purpose of playing music and perhaps other media.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by tonycpsu
    Speak for yourself! If the next Treos run Windows Mobile, I'm out like the trash on Thursday. I'm certainly not in love with Palm OS, but I have no allegience to the Treo product line that would enable me to stomach the idea of using Windows Mobile.
    When I was considering the Treo, I looked at PPC devices too... and what I found was the same thing that kept me away from Palm for so long... no friggin keyboard. And the devices that *do* have keyboards either look like aircraft carriers or require tricks such as flipping or sliding out to make their size more bearable... and appear as if the keyboard was a complete afterthought and only worthy of part-time use. Ugh. People panned Windows CE and all I can say is that it seems to me PPC is to Windows CE what Windows 98 was to Windows 3.11. Nice improvement, but still weak.
  4. #104  
    Taro,

    I think you are wrong with the comment "...any more than Nikon or Cannon (sic) have to worry about cell phone camera"

    Canon, Nikon and Sony need to worry, because in a couple years, cell phones will have very good (5MP+, good lenses, etc).
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    I think you are wrong with the comment "...any more than Nikon or Cannon (sic) have to worry about cell phone camera" Canon, Nikon and Sony need to worry, because in a couple years, cell phones will have very good (5MP+, good lenses, etc).
    LOL! You're kidding, right? Show me a compact camera (which itself would be near impossible to integrate into a convergence device at the form factors people want for such a device... Treo is on the big side of acceptable) that will compete with a DSLR and then I'll entertain the notion they need to worry about it.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Archie,
    The crackpipe runneth over.

    Next was a cool, but in the end, irrelevant R&D project that Jobs was able to convince Apple to buy at a pretty penny. (which I don't begrudge him for - good for him).

    Re: your 3 points:
    :
    1.) Battery life - Funny coming from a guy irrationally cheerleading a company that had a battery boodoggle with the iPod.
    I can only assume you meant to say “boondoggle” but misspelled it. BUT the word makes no sense in the way that you use it.

    AND, I can only assume you are talking about this:

    http://www.ipodsdirtysecret.com/

    First of all, in an interview I read about these 2 trouble-making brothers, they admitted to trying to replace the battery with a 3rd party product but broke their iPod and then complained about it – after the warranty period. hmmmm…

    Now, I ask, why would they then spray paint "unreplaceable battery" all over Apple’s iPod ads knowing full well there was an option to replace the battery.

    These 2 dweebs sound like a couple of ballyhoo sensationalists to me (you will be able to look up the meaning of “ballyhoo” at places like Wikipedia because I spelled it correctly for you).

    I am not sure what their intent in producing this video is but if it was to inform the buying public, they have a responsibility to report ALL the facts. Like Apple’s own official battery replacement program for $49!!

    What is funny to me is that no one points out that companies like Dell and Creative and their digital jukeboxes have absolutely no possibility of replacing their batteries.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    2.) Software interface/ease of use - This is important. iTunes has a good interface, as is the iPod. But what is your point? That the Apple UI for converged devices will be better than anything that comes out? Maybe.
    OK, sounds like you may actually agree with me on this point but still refuse to accept that I am correct???

    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    3.) "iPod users want to define the terms and conditions of their life and this includes the interuptions that may occur while listening to the soundtrack of their life. Most iPod users are professionals who are voluntarily excluding themselves from the discourse of others." - This is drivel and unrelated to the technology trend.

    It shows typical Apple-fanatic arrongance, thinking iPod users are somehow different that other users.

    'Soundtrack of their lives' - What is this, a Hallmark commercial. If you are going to lift a tag line, at least credit it.
    I am not lifting anything. It is a phrase that has arose from the iPod culture. It describes a phenomenon that makes the iPods and the Shuffles so attractive. Let me try and explain this concept of “soundtrack to your life” that is merely alluded to on the back of iPod boxes. People can access any song to fit any mood at any given time. I will always have the perfect music to fit my particular mood at any moment. But to go further, you put the music on your iPod and then the iPod will follow you around and magically provide the perfect music to your life without you ever needing to stop. The concept works, and it works perfectly, even if nobody is stopping to ask if the music is perfect because they themselves picked it and it works because the music is there and nothing used to be before.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by tonycpsu
    Yes, these both beat the Treo or any other cell phone that plays MP3s, but if music playing were emphasized more on these devices, that gap would narrow too. High quality sound output is not so elusive that only Apple can do it.
    But as an interesting point of discussion -- and as far as I can tell the original point of the thread -- what other features would be compromised in the Treo to support this? Consider the LifeDrive as example of a complete shift in the importance of some features over others in a convergence device. But would we consider LD and Treo equivalent? Of course not. Each is a convergence device with a different agenda. One device will never be as good at all the variety of things it does as a dedicated tool for the same function. A Swiss Army knife is a godsend for space savings and having a tool handy when needed, in a pinch... but by the same token screw drivers and scisscors (etc) haven't become extinct as a result either, yes?
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlb
    The Rio Karma is superior to the iPod, but Rio isn't anywhere near Apple as a marketing company. ... The Karma features a better signal to noise ratio, truly gapless playback, and acceptance of many codecs. The iPod doesn't. It sure sells well, though.
    But I am understanding that the Karma isn't a convergence device any more than the iPod is, right? Weren't we talking about how it Gates was effectively telling Apple (and, perhaps with all the mention of Karma, Rio too) that it needed to diversify either it's own device or perhaps the convergence devices it's iPost/iTunes software is available on?
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mize
    Cell phones, to most consumers, should be tiny and cool. Much tinier than Treos. Try making a Treo with 4 GB of space and a "wheel thingy" that apple uses in the space of a Moto V180 with a camera, retractable headphones and ease of use comparable to TIVO. That's what you'd need to beat an iPod and Moto Razr thingy phone.
    I totally agree. If you try to converge too many product dimensions/features into one device, you're going to fail at some of them. And even when you decrease the number of variables you're still left making compromises. It's the nature of the engineering beast. As technologies improve, they may enable additional features that couldn't be converged before... but the holy grail of the device for all people is not likely to be achieved in our time, I suspect.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by robangel
    ... Putting 1GB or 2GB of music on a SD card and figuring out how to do that with purchased music vs ripped music etc, seems like too much work for the reward. Too much covergance may not work, for the life of me I can not see how anyone can enjoy watching TV on a phone or a movie on an Archos or similiar personal video device. I'm sure many disagree though.
    Well, that's the interesting part. I, like some others, have wondered at why Palm would do the LifeDrive... others will think it's wonderful. Just as we respond differently to various standalone product features, we will also react differently to the feature mix and compromises made in convergence devices as well. The tricky part for convergence device manufacturers is to try to cater to a larger audience by providing more features without compromising out important product qualities and making it too niche as to artificially reduce it's market share.

    In my case, just with phone and PDA, I was giving serious thought to keeping a generic BT phone and getting a good PDA with BT to integrate that way. Imagine, as I did to my horror, that the Treo 650 is the only device Palm seels that has both BT *and* a keyboard! And, for me, having a keyboard on a PDA is a seriously important thing. So based on the different compromises and feature decicions made on the available devices, I wound up converging my phone and PDA into one. If there had been a Tungsten with BT and a keyboard, I probably would have gone a different route.

    This is an example of what I mean when I say that convergence devices (no matter what they converge... not even just phone, PDA, camera, and media) are all about compromises.
    Last edited by taroliw; 06/20/2005 at 11:38 AM.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by archie
    ... The addition of what it can hold and what it can do WILL continue to change over time, as will the various form factors. The iPod (just like Kleenex, Jacuzzis and Xerox machines) has staying power. ...
    Yes, I actually see the iPod tending to converge more in the direction of the LifeDrive than the Treo...
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by archie
    This is just incidental but Apple is a software company that uses hardware to help make money. It is the software they excel at. This software is what sells the hardware. Do you think anyone would buy a Mac if you could use OS X on an Intel machine? Nope. Well not many would anyway.
    *giggle* Well, won't the next round of hardware be an interesting experience for windows users then! Apple is changing processor vendors to... INTEL! No joke. I think the expectatiion (initially, at least) is that they will still be shipping very similar boxes (including the $900 developer test PowerMac system to aid in porting) at first... but imagine if the door opened to running OS X on generic Intel boxes... *sigh*
  13. #113  
    Yeah, I keep meaning to bring this up too, but there are just so many things that mikec is just clueless about... I keep forgetting to come back to it.

    We have to keep in mind at this point nothing is an absolute (other than there will be Intel chips inside Apple's computers at some point in the future), but it certainly seems as though it may be possible that Apple may again license the OS (this is what the analysts are saying anyway). Pretty much every hardware vendor under the sun (including Sun ) is asking Apple to let them sell hardware with OS X on it.
  14. #114  
    Archie,

    I see the magic mushrooms are in full effect...haven't seen this much trippin' since the Pink Floyd Laserium show in '82.

    You lucidly pointed out my typo on 'boondoggle'. Thank you. Spelling, not comprehension, is your strong suit.

    And it shows a lot that you spent a lot of time harping on that instead of addressing the comments or facts. Again, you avoid rather than address.

    iPod batteries sucked...known fact. Move on. And Apple charged $99 initially.

    You should be eating an effing crow sandwich after pompously posting "no on would want to run OS X on Intel", and then days later Apple announcing they will do just that.

    They have a name for people consistently on the wrong side of history.... (I'll let you fill it in, but here's a hint - History is written by the winners.)
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    You should be eating an effing crow sandwich after pompously posting "no on would want to run OS X on Intel", and then days later Apple announcing they will do just that.
    This is what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by archie
    This is just incidental but Apple is a software company that uses hardware to help make money. It is the software they excel at. This software is what sells the hardware. Do you think anyone would buy a Mac if you could use OS X on an Intel machine? Nope. Well not many would anyway.
    And if you can't understand my point, there is nothing more I can say.
  16. #116  
    Nothing more to say, because your mouth is full of crow....I understand.

    Your quote " Do you think anyone would buy a Mac if you could use OS X on an Intel machine? Nope. Well not many would anyway" is dead wrong. If you could run OS X on Intel, it would be huge. See Linux, etc.

    As for Apple being a software company that sells hardware to make money, look at the financials for them - hardware makes the money. The software is a necessity to put on their hardware. (and I am not putting down the software, I'm just saying they have to do it to sell boxes/devices).

    I know, I know, reality is such a bummer...
  17. #117  
    Back to the iPod. I love mine and unless Apple and Palm hooked up to institute the iPod quality into a Treo, I'll carry both. Nothing compares - I've had MP3 players and my husband has a Muvo (again, manufacturers ignore the blind - the Muvo is the only one he can work the keys on without flubbing up and hitting the wrong ones). The iPod is by far the best to my ears (having minored in commercial music, I recognize sound flaws quite easily).

    Also, when I go to the gym, I don't want my "business" device being put to the test in a sport pouch. If the iPod goes, it's just the music, not my entire means of communication when outsidethe office. And when I'm relaxing, I don't want the phone on my hip. I'll carry two devices until I'm forced not to.

    I learned long ago that too many eggs in one basket leaves you with nothing when you drop the basket. There's nervousness enough about the treo, but at least if I drop it, I'll still have some good music to listen to.

    Pamela
    Who also carries a Nikon 7900 because any shot might be one I want to print out as an 8 x 10.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    iPod batteries sucked...known fact. Move on. And Apple charged $99 initially.
    God, I friggin' despise Richard Quest (see post #1).

    I've got a GSM 650 and a 1st gen. iPod, love 'em both, use 'em both.

    I've had the iPod for 3 years now, no battery problems whatsoever. It's a real workhorse.
    -mbd26
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by guncollector
    I am already one of "those people".

    ...

    Only problem for me right now is having to scrub DRM encoding off iTunes music purchases by burning them to CD and reimporting them. Not a big hassle, but one I would gladly be rid of...
    You could use iOpener and avoid the burning
    Ciao

    Ettore
  20. #120  
    Well, now the iPod plays music and video. All we need is for Apple to add an OS and a phone and we're in business
    Apple iPhone 8GB
    Apple 15" Macbook Pro 2.33 Ghz C2D
    Retired Treo 650
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