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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by Prismatic
    After going back and reading the Cnet Hawkins interview several times and reading between the lines here is what we know for sure:

    1) No Bluetooth
    I'm not sure that's a foregone conclusion. He spoke of it in the same terms as IR back in the day. And he said that he made IR popular. To me it almost seems like he has a killer app for Bluetooth.
  2. #22  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    I'm not sure that's a foregone conclusion. He spoke of it in the same terms as IR back in the day. And he said that he made IR popular. To me it almost seems like he has a killer app for Bluetooth.
    That's how I interpreted it as well. He was either ignorant of the value of BT, was dissing it because his new device won't have it, or, as you said, is integrating it in the new Treo along with some special use for it and wants to take credit for being the first one to truly take advantage of it. With all due respect to him and whatever super-special purpose he may have cooked up, if the only thing BT was ever used for is for wireless headsets (which others have already done), it would still be a worthwhile. And the Nokia 3650 which I've mentioned elsewhere allows for BT syncing with laptops and sending photos, etc. to other 3650's (in addition, of course, to using BT headsets).

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  3.    #23  
    My expectations are all met more or less with the new Treo. Thank you Handspring!

    Originally posted by reinder.rustema
    What do we expect from the new Treo? In order of importance:

    [list=1][*]Bluetooth
    Not in the first release, perhaps a later version I understood. I could use the memorycard slot for it, but I prefer to use it for dictionaries, e-books, photo-albums, roadmaps etc.
    [*]Memorycard
    check
    [*]the memorysize + processorspeed to play/record sound
    check
    [*]no/smaller antenna
    nope, it's enormous. But the whole Treo is smaller, so it's less problematic.
    [*]lid opens with push of a button
    check, no lid
    [*]hi-res screen
    smaller device, so it's relatively higher res I understood. And it's brighter, so you can see it outdoors, that was my concern.
    [*]variable length USB Hotsync cable charges Treo
    no news on this
    [*]latest Palm OS
    check
    [*]e-mail + addressbook integration like SMS
    check
    [*]better Blazer
    check
    [*]removeable battery[/list=1]
    check, longer batterylife and later on a clip-on battery
    No wi-fi. It is more likely to be sold seperately (by 3rd parties?) as a Bluetooth accessoire with autonomous battery power and antenna. Just to keep the price of the Treo down and wi-fi performance at its best. [/B]
    Check, but with power from the Treo I understood.

    I am happy. I just don't like the colourscheme of the Treo 600. The grey of my Treo 270 is more discrète than the glitzy chrome buttons of the 600 and with the twinkling sparkles in the plastic on the back. I hope the European version in December will be less childish. And with Bluetooth integrated in a high end model.
    ReindeR
  4. #24  
    On the back of the Treo 600 prototype picture shown to the media, the brand name was shown as Handspring.

    However, since the latest Treo Communicator will be released during the fall with Palm's acquisition of Handspring, does anyone know whether the Treo 600 will be marketed as a Palm or Handspring product?

    Perhaps they will place a nice Palm logo on the front just like the one for Tungsten T ; )


    Regards,

    Timbuktu
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  5. #25  
    Originally posted by Timbuktu
    On the back of the Treo 600 prototype picture shown to the media, the brand name was shown as Handspring.

    However, since the latest Treo Communicator will be released during the fall with Palm's acquisition of Handspring, does anyone know whether the Treo 600 will be marketed as a Palm or Handspring product?

    Perhaps they will place a nice Palm logo on the front just like the one for Tungsten T ; )


    Regards,

    Timbuktu
    It will be released as a Handspring Product until the merger is complete then it will be re-branded palm.

    the merger, is expected to happen after the release.
    Felipe
    On the road to 5,000 posts
    Life is what happens between Firmware releases.
  6. #26  
    Originally posted by Felipe


    It will be released as a Handspring Product until the merger is complete then it will be re-branded palm.

    the merger, is expected to happen after the release.

    Thanks for the info, Felipe.

    Whether its Palm or Handspring, its still a TREO....and as long as it has better features than other smart phones, it will sell, right?

    Cheers!

    Timbuktu
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  7. #27  
    > ...Whether its Palm or Handspring, its still a TREO...

    True.

    > ...and as long as it has better features than other smart
    > phones, it will sell, right?...

    No, wrong.

    The original TREOs, all four models of them (90, 180, 270, 300), did not "sell" - according to Handspring management, the customer set was largely "early adopter" - i.e., TreoCentral geek-types - rather Joe and Jane Normal that they had to sell to in order to say the TREOs did "sell".
  8. #28  
    Better features is just one ingredient to a successful product. You also have such things as: design, price, marketing, a developer-friendly environment, etc. Handspring still seems to be trying to capture the elusive "corporate" environment whereas Danger and Nokia price their products for average consumers. If Handspring would do that with the Treo 600 (which it doesn't look like they are going to) I think they could sell a ton of these. At the rumored price point, they'll get more early-adopters and a few corporate-types. Again.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by Felipe


    It will be released as a Handspring Product until the merger is complete then it will be re-branded palm.

    the merger, is expected to happen after the release.
    From what I've read, I don't expect Handspring to handle/release/sell any more Treos, and I'd guess the 270s are the last units to carry Handspring logos. We'll probably see only Sprint and T-Mobile/? handle the 600 with their own and Palm logos.

    Rodolfo
    You may be right; I may be crazy. But, the Treo may be just the device I've been looking for.
  10. #30  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    Better features is just one ingredient to a successful product. You also have such things as: design, price, marketing, a developer-friendly environment, etc. Handspring still seems to be trying to capture the elusive "corporate" environment whereas Danger and Nokia price their products for average consumers. If Handspring would do that with the Treo 600 (which it doesn't look like they are going to) I think they could sell a ton of these. At the rumored price point, they'll get more early-adopters and a few corporate-types. Again.

    Scott
    You've a good point there, Scott.

    Palm may take a relook on Handspring's past marketing strategies and adopt a totally different approach to cater to the mass market for the Treo 600.

    Competition is really keen now for the smartphone device; what with Microsoft's recently announcement to tap this lucrative phone/pda sector.
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  11.    #31  
    Originally posted by Timbuktu
    Palm may take a relook on Handspring's past marketing strategies and adopt a totally different approach to cater to the mass market for the Treo 600.
    The most important I would think is simply the distribution.

    If it is for sale everywhere people are going to buy it. Overhere in Europe you have to hunt for a Treo. Only if you know about it you can find it. In most shops you can only buy the Palm models. Even those other smartphones people on this forum are talking about are nowhere to be found except online. Only the P800 is for sale in every GSM-shop, because it uses SonyEricssons marketing channels (wether it sells remains the question). For the PocketPC devices you should go to a computershop. Computershops still mainly focus on selling desktop machines and more and more notebooks. In a corner (or behind the counter) you can find the inevitable small selection of best selling Palms and some PocketPC devices (no smartphones though, phones are sold in phoneshops).

    Palms are also sold in every GSM shop, their outlet channels cover the whole market. Just add the Handspring Treo to the Palm collection and you can see an increase in sales. Selling it to those people who already have an old Palm at home, like the concept of the PDA, but just never bring it because it is too much of a hassle to bring two devices. The P800 is not a Palm device and has no keyboard, reason enough not to buy it. The Treo would sell good in the phoneshops where the people come to buy for fun, there are many of those in every shopping centre, both boys and girls walk in and out all the time.

    Computershops are the places to avoid for normal people (couples), you always have to wait in line there because the customers have complex questions/complaints and want the lowest price. You go there with a mission/shopping list, not for fun.

    The phoneshops on the other hand are there to make people fall in love with new phones. It competes more with a jewelry store selling watches than with a computerstore I have the impression. After all, a phone is something you carry with you all the time and you are seen with it. And at the same time it should be practicle. Palms are sold there more as an accessoire as a christmas present for a boy who already has a phone. The phone is what it is about, it's the liveline, most essential.

    And the price? All the pricetags in a phoneshop say zero euro. In small print underneath it says 'with 2 year subscription' and some coded abbreviations for the kind of subscription. Most people first decide choose the phone and then accept the monthly burden later, after buying it. This explains the durable profits of Nokia and the likes. Palm is not yet in this business. PDA functionality is not as essential for most people, although it's a good feature to sell more phones.
    Last edited by reinder.rustema; 07/10/2003 at 02:55 AM.
    ReindeR
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by reinder.rustema


    The most important I would think is simply the distribution. ...snip...
    You are correct. It is a completely different market. Anyone that doesn't cater to that market will lose out no matter how many features they add to the phone.

    Markets are littered with hundreds of great products that never got a foot-hold because they weren't marketed correctly.

    I guarantee that more products are sold in brick and mortor stores than on-line. Nowhere near as many people buy stuff on-line as they do when the product is staring them in the face or they have it in their hands. (Impulse-buying, for example).

    Distribution is VERY important. Advertising. Marketing. Proliferation. It has to be in people's faces or they won't buy it as often. I could sell ten Treo 600s for every one sold on-line with the right distribution and marketing channels.

    Unfortunately, the other piece of the equation is not only having them in the stores for people to see, but also having the right sales pitch. People who go to a store to look for a phone aren't thinking about a PDA. They're thinking about a PHONE. They're thinking PHONE prices. They're thinking PHONE usage.

    The Treo is a wonderful SmartPhone, but unless a salesman has educated himself on Palm OS platforms and what they can do, he's not going to be an effective salesman when it comes to a Treo because he won't be able to educate "average Joe or Jane" that walks in the store, and demonstrate WHY they would want a Treo over ANOTHER phone. Remember...to "average Joe or Jane" one phone is a good as any other. "Can I make calls?" Yes. "Well, that's what I want." Everything else is "gravy".

    How many times have you walked into a Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, or other "department" store looking for a product that is regularly sold there, but the sales staff didn't know the first thing about it, or if they did know about it, they couldn't tell you why it's better or worse than any other product? Too many times. It's very common.

    So unless a customer comes in already knowing that they want a Treo, they're not likely to go out of their way to get one if the sales staff, display, marketing, etc. doesn't SHOW it to them. For most customers, it's just another high-tech "geek" toy that they have no incentive to buy (unless they already KNOW about what it can do).
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  13.    #33  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget


    (...) People who go to a store to look for a phone aren't thinking about a PDA. They're thinking about a PHONE. They're thinking PHONE prices. They're thinking PHONE usage.

    The Treo is a wonderful SmartPhone, but unless a salesman has educated himself on Palm OS platforms and what they can do, he's not going to be an effective salesman

    (...)

    So unless a customer comes in already knowing that they want a Treo, they're not likely to go out of their way to get one if the sales staff, display, marketing, etc. doesn't SHOW it to them. For most customers, it's just another high-tech "geek" toy that they have no incentive to buy (unless they already KNOW about what it can do).
    I have little worries about that. I think the Treo will sell itself because it answers a marketdemand. Just write next to it that you can use the keyboard for your e-mail and SMS, that you can sync it with your computer so you won't loose any data ever and people are already interested is my experience (even with my nerdy Treo 270).

    When they can work with it for a few minutes most are already convinced. Then you can kick it in with saying that there are thousands of applications since the early nineties made for it (many for free) that make the device into a little computer: citymaps, calculators, datebook, taking notes, storing passwords safely, games, just anything a computer can do can be done by this machine. Just a leaflet listing all such features by itself can do it, together with the hands-on experience. The Palm retailchannels can take care of that.
    ReindeR
  14. #34  
    The other issue is that display model phones tend to be mockups. For most phones, that's OK since they don't do much other than make phone calls, so a customer mainly wants to hold it and get a feel for how it would be to use it. For the Treo 600, though, they really need to get working models on display so that customers can play with a lot of the neat features.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  15.    #35  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    For the Treo 600, though, they really need to get working models on display so that customers can play with a lot of the neat features.
    In some of the phoneshops I frequent the phones are mockups indeed, but the Palms are nailed/glued to a counter (and the stylus is stolen).

    But even a mockup can give the tactile sensation of typing on the querty keyboard. A pleasure the P800 or whatever PocketPC smartphone can't give. Operating a touch screen remains nerdish and a tad too abstract for many ordinary users. People want to push buttons, shoot with every push. Pulling the trigger is more fun than waving in the air after all.

    That's why I think the D-pad for navigation is a good move, instead of the stylus for navigation.
    ReindeR
  16. #36  
    Originally posted by reinder.rustema


    I have little worries about that. I think the Treo will sell itself because it answers a marketdemand. Just write next to it that you can use the keyboard for your e-mail and SMS, that you can sync it with your computer so you won't loose any data ever and people are already interested is my experience (even with my nerdy Treo 270).

    When they can work with it for a few minutes most are already convinced. Then you can kick it in with saying that there are thousands of applications since the early nineties made for it (many for free) that make the device into a little computer: citymaps, calculators, datebook, taking notes, storing passwords safely, games, just anything a computer can do can be done by this machine. Just a leaflet listing all such features by itself can do it, together with the hands-on experience. The Palm retailchannels can take care of that.
    You just made my point. Unless you're in a computer store, you're not going to get a sales person that can tell you that there are "thousands of applications" for it.

    The things that distinguish a Treo from other smart phones have to be touted or the "average Joe or Jane" that comes into a phone store looking for a phone isn't as likely to consider it.

    That means marketing, salesmanship, etc. has to be done. As some of the other posters have said, many of the PDAs on display in some stores are mock-ups. How does someone who may have never used a Palm device get WOWed with a plastic mock-up?

    The marketing for the Treo needs to be appropriate for the Treo and its capabilities. Relying on it to "sell itself" may work in a computer store, but it won't do as well in a phone store where customers don't know about its capabilities and aren't necessarily looking for a "little computer".

    Don't get me wrong...I hope it DOES do well. I just hope that Palm/Handspring/Sprint/T-Mobile/etc. do a better job of marketing it than they've done in the past. Let's not forget that the economy is down. People need a REAL reason to spend $400-$500 on a phone. If the Treo is going to capture more market share, it needs to be SOLD (not just put out there with the hopes that people will NOTICE it).
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  17. #37  
    You need to justify the size. Most people shopping for a new phone looke at size first and foremost. Why get a big phone when I can have a little one?

    So, just leaving out on display won't do it. A knowledgeable sales person will need to be there explaining why it is bigger and why that's OK (camer, Palm, memory slot, MP3 capable, etc.)
  18.    #38  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget


    That means marketing, salesmanship, etc. has to be done. As some of the other posters have said, many of the PDAs on display in some stores are mock-ups.
    My experience is that the PDAs are not mock-ups, the phones are.


    If the Treo is going to capture more market share, it needs to be SOLD (not just put out there with the hopes that people will NOTICE it).
    I just count on it to be noticed by the salesperson. Let him play with it for a little while and the device will convince him. Someone should tell him that there are thousands of applications out there for it, then he can do the talking. Perhaps there should be a CDROM with it with a few hundred free Palm apps.
    ReindeR
  19. #39  
    Originally posted by reinder.rustema


    My experience is that the PDAs are not mock-ups, the phones are.


    I just count on it to be noticed by the salesperson. Let him play with it for a little while and the device will convince him. Someone should tell him that there are thousands of applications out there for it, then he can do the talking. Perhaps there should be a CDROM with it with a few hundred free Palm apps.
    Ahhh, but we're talking about a SmartPhone, aren't we? Isn't that what the Treo is? That's what Handspring wants "Average Joe and Jane" to think so they'll consider it when looking for a phone.

    You're still thinking like a computer store shopper. The carriers are marketing the Treo as a phone (first and foremost). Handspring is trying to get it accepted as a phone.

    What was your experience when you bought your last cell phone (prior to the Treo)? If you're like most people, you went to a mall and found a vendor selling service. The vendor may have pointed out a couple of phones to you, but that wasn't his focus. He wanted to sell you a contract. He couldn't care less what phone you wanted.

    So my point is that unless the sales force gets behind the Treo or a potential customer has seen enough about the Treo to know why they would want it, most people are not likely to buy it.

    The typical scenario will play out like this:

    A couple walks in and looks around a bit at all the phones on display. They have no idea what they want in a phone other than it should be small enough to fit in her purse or his pocket and should get great service. They've never heard of a Treo and don't use PDAs. They've heard of Palm Pilots, but don't think they have a need for one.

    Sales rep: "Hi, welcome to T-Mobile. What kind of plan are you interested in?"

    Customer (looking at the list of plans): "Well, I want unlimited nights and weekends, voice-mail, xxx number of minutes..." etc.

    Sales rep: "You can get all that with THIS plan. Do you have a phone?"

    Customer: "Nope."

    Sales rep: "Well here is a selection. All our phones have e-mail capability, SMS, blah blah blah..."

    Customer: "I like this one (pointing at the smallest unit with the cheapest price tag [probably free with service activation])."

    Sales rep: "Alright, we'll get you all set up." (Thinks "Great, I made a sale.")

    Customer walks out with a cell phone (or phones if they got a family plan) never knowing what the Treo was capable of.

    This is a very likely scenario. If the sales rep didn't do his homework on the Treo, he wouldn't know or even care about the extra capabilities of the Treo. As far as mobile phone sellers are concerned, the Treo is just another phone. If it doesn't fall within their scheme of what a phone should be, then they don't know how to sell it.

    Early adopters of the Treo (like myself) know this all too well. When I talked to T-Mobile prior to their "official" support of the Treo, the customer service rep didn't even know what a Treo was and was about to tell me that she couldn't help me. (I didn't have a problem with the Treo itself. I simply wanted something done with my service). When she found out what kind of "phone" I had, she couldn't get it straight in her head that I was using something besides a conventional cell phone.

    So when I tell you that marketing, salesmanship, etc. are key factors, it's not without foundation.

    As far as the salesman goes...sure, "someone should tell him that there are thousands of applications out there for it". Who? The customer? You're kidding, right?

    Unless Palm/Handspring works a deal with Sprint/T-Mobile on HOW these devices should be touted when they are in the mobile phone stores, they'll be treated just like any other phone--and be passed over by "Average Joe" who just wants a simple phone with 12 buttons like his house phone or "Soccer Mom" who already has enough crap to carry when hauling hers and the neighbors' kids to practice and wants a phone that doesn't make her look like a geek in front of the kids.

    It's a different market that the Treo is trying to penetrate. Handspring knows it and hopefully they'll do the things necessary to make it successful in that market. But don't count on the Treo selling itself. That only works when a device is priced very low and the potential buyers are all "educated" (via great marketing) on what it can do.

    We'll see.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  20.    #40  
    Reading your scenario I think the best way to sell this phone is to all those people who have a Palm, used to have one or once considered getting one. That is Joe rather than Jane. Although I also know a few Janes with a Palm. This Treo 600 should be the replacement for their PDA. They will spread the word rather than the sales representative.

    I know many people who have considered a Palm. They just didn't like the idea of scribbling with a stylus on a little screen, didn't like carrying a second device besides the phone, didn't like the geeky appearance of it.

    And the size? The thing should not be heavy, but small or ultrasmall is for many people not much of an issue I have the impression.
    ReindeR
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