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  1.    #1  
    An interesting article that mentions our beloved webOS:
    https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/13/th...ad-about-palm/
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    mazzinia, GoJoe2 and MAMISHO like this.
  2. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #2  
    100% agreed!

    When I saw the Iphone X presentation I was immediatly reminded of webOS. Its sad and great, at the same time, to see identical gestures and interactions (give and take) on the most advanced Iphone so far.

    I even thought that that might change my views on Iphones in general.

    But it makes it also so much more urgent to get LuneOS out of the door. If we could have it in the future on Googles next flagship device it would proove it all so true that - in the light of the new Iphone UX - webOS UX was nearly 10 years ahead of its time.
    MartinH@webos and MAMISHO like this.
  3. #3  
    I've seen that article mentioned a lot, but now I've read it, I'm surprised. History seems to say that Palm was a very innovative, but badly managed company. They were very good at the interface, which is why PalmOS was so good, but also the reason for the arrogant comment that "PC guys won't just walk in". Apple's phone was basically an ipod that made calls, but using the touchscreen did away with the fiddly stylus used on pressure sensitive screens. (a stylus is good for fine work or handwriting input, but watching video or reading only needs thumb input). The development and popularisation of the smart phone was a move from a business device (Palm & Blackberry) to a consumer device, just as the PC became a laptop, then a tablet.

    So Palm, like anyone else in the market, reacted to the iphone with a device that was very like an iphone. But if webOS was actually a copy of Apple IP, why didn't Apple sue? Even in 2009, they were ipod rich - richer than Palm. Why did it take 8 years for Apple to get it out of the door?

    Even if this was a copied product, but no action was taken, it would likely be an open secret in the Silicon Valley. Would Google hire a guy who got his ideas from Apple via Rubenstein to be their chief designer?

    Interesting to remember that PalmOS (and graffitti) came out of cutting down plans for the Apple Newton to usable scale. iphone was a flashier, cut down palmOS designed for touch. webOS was palmOS as browser with a slicker, touch UI and multitasking.
    Rnp likes this.
  4. #4  
    Palm, at the very least, used their patents defensively. I imagine to some extent Apple did as well. More than likely, Palm had patents on many things that Apple had, so Apple avoided starting a lawsuit war that would end poorly for them. Thaaaat said... I very much doubt that the card motif is what Tim Cook was referring to. Keep in mind, Apple was filing a bunch of patents during this time period for things like the shapes of UI elements, as well as gesture navigation (and hell, even the shape of smartphones). I mean, hell, when I first saw the sliding toggle button in webOS pre-1.0 I was a bit struck at how similar to the iPhone's sliding toggle button it seemed. The iPhone also had things like kinetic scrolling, which webOS adopted, and Android around that time as well. Not to mention the UI that had the thin bar at the top with status on the current phone, and icons on a bar at the bottom for quick access, and a grid like pattern of icons you could swipe through for the launcher.
    Last edited by dkirker; 09/14/2017 at 02:52 AM.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  5. #5  
    I think apple was caught off guard and always wanted the webos and gestures for themselves. Remember Steve Jobs at the antenna gate event said some people know how to make software, like palm. So they just kept chipping away but couldn't do it properly without getting rid of the old home button. And with the passage of time it was time to pull the trigger
  6. #6  
    "advancements" like this in an OS just make my heart long for webOS. I miss those days! I am hoping though, that more and more the current OS's continue heading towards a UI and gestures like Palm had. It was just to intuitive for running a phone.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    Palm, at the very least, used their patents defensively. I imagine to some extent Apple did as well. More than likely, Palm had patents on many things that Apple had, so Apple avoided starting a lawsuit war that would end poorly for them. Thaaaat said... I very much doubt that the card motif is what Tim Cook was referring to. Keep in mind, Apple was filing a bunch of patents during this time period for things like the shapes of UI elements, as well as gesture navigation (and hell, even the shape of smartphones). I mean, hell, when I first saw the sliding toggle button in webOS pre-1.0 I was a bit struck at how similar to the iPhone's sliding toggle button it seemed. The iPhone also had things like kinetic scrolling, which webOS adopted, and Android around that time as well. Not to mention the UI that had the thin bar at the top with status on the current phone, and icons on a bar at the bottom for quick access, and a grid like pattern of icons you could swipe through for the launcher.
    Apple's patents are often much narrower than the media (and Apple) made it out to be, and from what I heard, the team deliberately implemented/modified things in webOS to not infringe on the patents (most likely after legal review). For example, the slide-to-unlock patent covered horizontal drag to unlock but not the radial style that webOS shipped with. Kinetic scrolling was not patented. Being able to overscroll was patented -- so webOS added a timer where it would snap back even if you kept dragging down. And there's many articles about pinch-to-zoom. As far as I'm concerned, tech has a long history of copying features from each other (webOS/Android from iOS, iOS from PalmOS, PalmOS from MacOS, MacOS from Xerox PARC, and Newton probably fits in there somewhere) and patents are more anti-consumer than pro-R&D anyways.
    Last edited by jl85; 09/14/2017 at 10:24 AM.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by jl85 View Post
    Apple's patents are often much narrower than the media (and Apple) made it out to be, and from what I heard, the team deliberately implemented/modified things in webOS to not infringe on the patents (most likely after legal review). For example, the slide-to-unlock patent covered horizontal drag to unlock but not the radial style that webOS shipped with. Kinetic scrolling was not patented. Being able to overscroll was patented -- so webOS added a timer where it would snap back even if you kept dragging down. And there's many articles about pinch-to-zoom. As far as I'm concerned, tech has a long history of copying features from each other (webOS/Android from iOS, iOS from PalmOS, PalmOS from MacOS, MacOS from Xerox PARC, and Newton probably fits in there somewhere) and patents are more anti-consumer than pro-R&D anyways.
    Certainly! I do recall, vaguely, from my internship days at Palm that there was some tip-toeing. (Your comment about over-scrolling and slide-to-unlock seems to trigger such memory, I think.)

    Yeah, there is definitely a history of copying. I think it is hard not to. And with the way patents were designed, at least when it comes to the way that design involves software and some tech, they definitely become anti-consumer.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    ... They were very good at the interface, which is why PalmOS was so good, but also the reason for the arrogant comment that "PC guys won't just walk in". ...
    I disagree that Ed Colligan's remark was arrogant (even though it's always presented as such). Misguided maybe, but arrogant no. When he said that "We've learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone, PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in." he was, in my opinion, talking about PC makers not understanding the compromises need to make a good phone, and that it would take years to get there. ... And he was right. The original iPhone had an appalling radio-receiver (it kept dropping calls where no other phone did), terrible battery time (measured in hours rather than days or weeks), no (3rd party) applications (making it a feature phone not a smart phone), etc. etc. Some of these issues have been addressed over the years, some still haven't (like general usability or battery time, even though it got better, it's nowhere near the battery time of other smartphones ten years ago)...most likely because they boxed themselves in with a wrong concept they still can't think outside off (either due to political, technical, or creative limitations).

    But Colligan's remark was not arrogance, it's a correct observation. His conclusion, however, was wrong. He - as I interpret it - felt that the consumer would choose 'the better device' not 'the shinier device'. But that was due to the fact that Palm, like others, were marketed towards business. Apple did not. As a matter of fact, for years you were not allowed to use an iPhone for business according to the user agreement (even though it was used as such, and they even sold apps that were specifically directed to businesses). Instead they chose to create a phone with one specific purpose: multi-media (including web-browsing). Nothing else (not even truly phone calls, as that was a secondary concern).

    No, Colligan wasn't arrogant, he just had too much faith when it comes to consumers. And that was a big mistake, because even back then, if history has proven anything, it's that consumers don't generally choose the best product (let alone the most innovative and useful product -- Not that Palm had truly innovated in the years prior to the iPhoneI...just like Apple hasn't innovated since (and the iPhoneI wasn't really innovative itself; objectively analyzed)).
    Mutoidi and dkirker like this.
  10. #10  
    'The Verge' (Dieter Bohn) recently on the case here too:

    https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/15/1...ures-nostalgia


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  11. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #11  
    Marvelous article. I think there is nothing left to say. Now that Apple starts to get the input stuff right they just need to get all the productivity stuff right (maybe starting 2020) and all my opposition towards iOS will vanish and for once I might be lucky and use an operating system that will continue.

    As someone else over at the Crackberry forums said: "any mobile OS you would like me to kill next". As this is true of me, too (coming from Symbian (Nokia E90) to webOS (Pre3) to BBOS10 (Passport).

    Maybe I should have bought an Iphone in 2007 - who knows how history would have turned out?

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