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    #41  
    So my friend's dad worked at Palm, HP, and LG and might know some people there still, so that might be of help. He said it might be hard to get the servers away from HP because there's the confidential information on it, but I'll try to talk to him about it.
  2. #42  
    Now, let's think for a moment... Do we really want to write to HP? Especially now, knowing what Alan Morford has just found out?

    Or is it much better if they take down every last scrap of code and we'll be free to maintain our archives without the burden of them having the "official" copy?

    I'm wary of making any compromises with them, when we can just wait for them to move on, and it's much better than a legally-binding licensing deal, or a moth-eaten repository of stuff that no-one at HP will know how to operate or maintain

    No hard feelings, just offering an opposing point of view.
    ...
  3.    #43  
    I don't understand how a requesting clarifying information & possibly requesting the donation of materials is a compromise.

    I'm not assuming that HP will reverse any decisions. I'm assuming their notice is a statement of fact.

    It's certainly likely that for possible reasons outlined above, significant code may not be forthcoming - per Alan Morford's post, it may actually be sitting on an LG maintained server and less likely to be shutdown immediately.

    It seems wise to at least find out exactly what is happening.

    Any support & developer webpages are downloaded to your computer and there is nothing to stop users downloading everything (apart from the rush knocking the server over, but I expect there are too few of us to do that), but it would be better if the full system (including backends) could be hosted elsewhere IF it will be shut down on the 15th of January with the cloud services.

    There seems to be enough comment here for me to make some enquiries, so I'll begin.
    lc_lol and Mutoidi like this.
  4.    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Grabber5.0 View Post
    I didn't think Ares even worked any more. There was a new Ares2 that you could download and build and run in your own environment, but it looked like too much work so I never bothered.
    As an aside, I downloaded that and played with it - started to modify the boilerplate app.

    I had to download nodejs first, but it all seemed to work. If a numbskull like me can do it, someone who actually knows computers could.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    As an aside, I downloaded that and played with it - started to modify the boilerplate app.

    I had to download nodejs first, but it all seemed to work. If a numbskull like me can do it, someone who actually knows computers could.
    LOL my laziness shines through. I wasn't really motivated to try since I never used Ares other than to look at it and decide it wasn't really for me.
    Remy X likes this.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    I don't understand how a requesting clarifying information & possibly requesting the donation of materials is a compromise.

    I'm not assuming that HP will reverse any decisions. I'm assuming their notice is a statement of fact.

    It's certainly likely that for possible reasons outlined above, significant code may not be forthcoming - per Alan Morford's post, it may actually be sitting on an LG maintained server and less likely to be shutdown immediately.

    It seems wise to at least find out exactly what is happening.

    Any support & developer webpages are downloaded to your computer and there is nothing to stop users downloading everything (apart from the rush knocking the server over, but I expect there are too few of us to do that), but it would be better if the full system (including backends) could be hosted elsewhere IF it will be shut down on the 15th of January with the cloud services.

    There seems to be enough comment here for me to make some enquiries, so I'll begin.
    The problem is, if we go to HP, we'll get to deal with lawyers and know-nothings. If you've read what Alan Morford has said here, it's pretty clear. Anyone that knew anything about how anything operated is gone!

    If we want information, we gotta go through the guys at SVL, the veterans, holdovers from when HP/Palm was still producing stuff. They would know. They were there when the sale to LG took place. They are the only ones who may secretly have the source code to phone components, because surely HP doesn't have it.


    And we gotta be careful what kind of donations we accept and what consequences will come with that. Because nothing is free, and if you don't read the fine print or even read the situation between the lines, you'll still think it's no-strings-attached free lunch, when it isn't.

    Because everything we want is either: a) exposed on the web, and we can archive it... or b) destroyed. The Ares1 toolkit falls into both categories, it's partially online, and partially gone.

    And if we go to HP about anything, they may, as a compromise, leave the doctors hosted on their website, for the next ten years. If they do that, we can't legally share ROMs that have security fixes, new certs or non-broken activation. This is like a painful, drawn-out divorce. Let's just end it and not ask for concessions that are more likely a bad bargain, if you look hard enough

    We should just let them delete everything, then our hands will be untied. We'll be truly free.

    Hey, let's debate this here, because i'm not gonna let up. We need to work this out, regardless of what we do in the end. Because i don't believe that HP will be making the kinds of gifts it made prior to the sale of Gram. All the people who negotiated those things are gone. There was the sale, there were devs leaving for greener pastures, managers who transfered to other divisions and now, massive layoffs. The best we'll get is the executives and their lawyers thinking they are doing us a favor by continuing to host the doctors.

    Think about it. HP did not provide an offline activation tool for post Jan 15th, they did not provide a tool for exporting Palm Profiles. So that's about how much they care.

    That's how much they think existing users are worth. And that also means they won't come back in six months to enforce Qualcomm's copyright in its behalf. There. That's what we want. A clean cut. A new era. Let them destroy the remaining zombie infrastructure, but not our chances at going forward without their (HP's) continued involvement.


    And yeah, if we beg them for a right to host doctors ourselves, you won't just get an email saying "go ahead", you'll have to do it the corporate way and sign a legally-binding agreement. And then we won't be able to host ROMs that have "life-saving" fixes in them. If they deleted everything, we can do what we want, because we have a right to repair. We don't get an absolute legal right, but morally, we do. Because HP dropped the ball.

    So we should let them keep dropping it, until we are 100% free to maintain webOS the way we wish.

    P.S. Right now, hosting a "patched" ROM is as legally "wrong" as hosting an OEM original. But it's not piracy, because we own webOS devices, and those ROMs are a repair tool, not standalone software. If HP removed all ROMs off its website, hosting a ROM with security patches is something that will gain us more sympathy in the eyes of the law, because we are further performing repairs and maintenance, and the sharing/possession of Q'comm's modem firmware is purely incidental
    Last edited by Remy X; 10/27/2014 at 11:40 AM.
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Morford View Post
    From a source close to HP about this topic: "no chance of there being any useful anything over at HP that anyone knows how to access...everything that was in the former webOS building is at LGSVL...or garbaged". Sorry everyone.
    Re-quoting for the next page
    ...
  8. #48  
    Well... I have some concepts: the "no" we have now, and only if we try, "maybe" we can receive some "yes"...


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rnp View Post
    Well... I have some concepts: the "no" we have now, and only if we try, "maybe" we can receive some "yes"...


    Best Regards...
    A poisoned "yes" is worse than a "no".

    We gotta try the safe channels first, by going to the Palm guys still left at LG. And we must leave the HP lawyers alone before they cause us any problems
    ...
  10. #50  
    I just bid on a couple of 3's on eBay, to start stocking up on parts!

    It would be nice if this community could keep WebOS to update as we see fit (or, um, I should say, you guys).

    I have all of y PIM data via my Google account however I do have my Palm profile, so what would happen if I moved to another phone or had to zap this one and reload?

    Oh, I found an email address for the corporate office at Palo Alto: email.ecr@hp.com it it helps any.
    Remy X and Rnp like this.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by mpcollins View Post
    I just bid on a couple of 3's on eBay, to start stocking up on parts!

    It would be nice if this community could keep WebOS to update as we see fit (or, um, I should say, you guys).

    I have all of y PIM data via my Google account however I do have my Palm profile, so what would happen if I moved to another phone or had to zap this one and reload?

    Oh, I found an email address for the corporate office at Palo Alto: email.ecr@hp.com it it helps any.
    Thanks for the find... but we should still consult with the engineers at LG's Silicon Valley Lab (aka SVL), because they would actually know what survived... and then we'll know enough to make an informed decision.

    All in all, cutting all ties to HP is the best option. They've written off all legacy customers. They've not provided a tool for exporting data stored in Palm Profiles. They've not provided an official "offline activation" tool. So it's best if they cut us off all the way, take down everything, and turn a blind eye to the community's re-hosting of clean, secure, updated ROMs.

    When we are not on a leash... Then we can thrive.
    ...
    petbull likes this.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    Thanks for the find... but we should still consult with the engineers at LG's Silicon Valley Lab (aka SVL), because they would actually know what survived... and then we'll know enough to make an informed decision.

    All in all, cutting all ties to HP is the best option. They've written off all legacy customers. They've not provided a tool for exporting data stored in Palm Profiles. They've not provided an official "offline activation" tool. So it's best if they cut us off all the way, take down everything, and turn a blind eye to the community's re-hosting of clean, secure, updated ROMs.

    When we are not on a leash... Then we can thrive.
    I can understand that. Where would it be hosted?
    Remy X likes this.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by mpcollins View Post
    I can understand that. Where would it be hosted?
    Stuff being hosted by the community is a pretty small logistics issue. We can host it on a Google Drive, just as long as everything is linked to on a page that's behind a login, so that no abandonware comes up directly when you do a Google search. We can later host it somewhere else.

    Just following the usual "abandonware" practices, you know
    ...
    TJs11thPre likes this.
  14. #54  
    I can totally understand Remys perspective. We have very little reason to expect anything positive from Hp. At all. And it is very true that if an agency or entity makes an inquiry, anyone that is considering something generous, would also be considering covering his ****, and that certainly involves Legal. And that would definitely rain out any parade we're trying to lead here.

    Now, if a single consumer (even several, individual and unrelated consumers) ask about their hp product and seek more info than the PRPRPR $stated$, $that$'$s$ $possible$ $to$ $get$ $info$ $without$ $interoffice$ $emails$ $stirring$ $up$ $and$ $causing$ $investigations$. $At$ $any$ $time$ $can$ $some$ $lawyer$ $at$ $hp$ $pretty$ $much$ $send$ $cease$ $and$ $desists$ $for$ $anything$ $we$ $do$, $and$ $no$ $one$ $here$ $is$ $paying$ $legal$ $expenses$ $to$ $defend$ $it$ $even$ $if$ $it$'$s$ $bogus$. $They$'$re$ $gonna$ $stop$, $immediately$, $because$ $it$'$s$ $not$ $worth$ $it$.

    So inquire privately maybe, rather than representing an organization? Or avoid blind inquiries to emails that will just get forwarded to the wrong people? Keep it on the d.l.??

    I personally resist poking a bear that looks like it's going to hibernate.
    Remy X and Rnp like this.
  15. #55  
    All of that sounds good. I know nothing about programming hardware so I will be absolutely no help to you.

    I have pay for two phones at ebay--I made bids before I heard about this--so I'm hoping that I get to use them lol.

    Thanks for all you guys do to keep we WebOS fans in business.
  16. #56  
    Remy, I understand some of your concerns about HP; but - in my understanding - HP still owns HP webos and the related services are operated by HP. LG might have absorbed most of the Palm people and LG has the rights to develop webos further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    If they deleted everything, we can do what we want, because we have a right to repair. We don't get an absolute legal right, but morally, we do. Because HP dropped the ball.
    I don't understand why we would be in a better position after HP has dropped everything.
    If today we have no rights to distribute webos doctor images then in future we would have the same restrictions.
    Situation does get any better without HP.

    They've not provided an official "offline activation" tool.
    If this is the case then it would be big mistake by HP and HP needs to fix it and provide some solution for existing device owners. If HP has overlooked this case then we need to tell HP now. For sure I want to ask HP about this case.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinH@webos View Post
    Remy, I understand some of your concerns about HP; but - in my understanding - HP still owns HP webos and the related services are operated by HP. LG might have absorbed most of the Palm people and LG has the rights to develop webos further.

    I don't understand why we would be in a better position after HP has dropped everything.
    If today we have no rights to distribute webos doctor images then in future we would have the same restrictions.
    Situation does get any better without HP.


    If this is the case then it would be big mistake by HP and HP needs to fix it and provide some solution for existing device owners. If HP has overlooked this case then we need to tell HP now. For sure I want to ask HP about this case.
    Ok.

    The problem is that HP has spun off and later sold off all of its webOS maintenance capabilities. Everything is on life support and no one knows how to fix or operate anything. There's nothing. It's done.

    They have done more than you could ever expect them to, because:

    HP has written off webOS the moment its former CEO, Leo Apotheker decided to close that division. Meg Whitman, who came in to replace him after he was ousted, decided to partially reverse that decision, to save face - to keep all webOS infrastructure online, and in the meantime, open source webOS and successfully spin off/sell the division, to where it will survive outside HP. But the last device made before Leo axed all hardware production was in late '11. Yes, 2011.

    Mobile phones have an upgrade cycle of two years, and HP/Palm devices are no longer offered by carriers. It's been three years since legacy webOS officially died. No one owes us anything. If you want to bypass activation, there's always devicetool.jar, if you know how to hack it, and HP doesn't have the manpower to provide anything else. Poking the hornets' nest will not change the reality or make them more likely to service legacy hardware that's already out of warranty, not sold by wireless carriers and has an active userbase of no more than 3,000. HP has laid off more than that in the last quarter, and hadn't shed a tear.

    We are pretty insignificant in that context... but we better not look pathetic with our "prima donna" demands, above and beyond their current technical capabilities. If you want a pretty, polished OEM-looking activation tool, the Homebrew devs can build one, considering that they/we actually know how.

    RE: Doctors/ROMs... HP is hosting un-maintained, dangerously outdated software, full of known and reported security holes. They won't fix it, they may no longer even have the source code. There's no support. And the sooner they take down the ROMs, the sooner we will have a moral right to patch those doctors and host them ourselves, much like retro video game enthusiasts do. No one harasses them over their hobby. Nobody cares anymore, there's no money in it. Only uptight puritans or deranged communists will intentionally drag in a corporate lawyer and report their fellow hobbyist for doing something that's buried deep in the EULA.

    Come on, think about it. The straightjacket mentality will hurt us more than it helps. We are on our own now and have to effectively look after ourselves. And HP will not do anything more. They are no longer able, no longer obligated, and we no longer have a position to say that they are throwing us under the bus.

    Technology has an expiration date, unfortunately, and circumstances change.


    .
    ...
    petbull likes this.
  18. #58  
    It's time they cut us loose. It's time, that our destiny be decided by us, and not some corporate іdіot. One Leo was enough.

    And Qualcomm has better things to do than hunt for loose copies of its four year old firmware, hidden in an old ROM of a discontinued product, made available behind a login on an unlisted page.


    Cheers
    ...
    petbull likes this.
  19. #59  
    A phrase just came to mind: It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

    I'm starting to disagree with the naysayers. To big companies like HP, it's all about millions of dollars and cents and we are only worth cents to them. HP just doesn't care anymore. Have you ever gone to the store looking for your favorite whatever--food item, shampoo, Beta cassettes--and found out it's been discontinued? And worse yet, you can't find any refills, etc? That is now us. We are like the people who love Hostess Twinkies and lost them, except in our case, we can't encourage the company to find other financing and bring back what we love. There are not enough of us and it's not worth it to them. As I said, millions of dollars and cents.

    To that end, and to make a long story short, we are picking up their trash and making use of it. Have you ever taken a empty copy paper box from work home or maybe gotten some piece of furniture someone left when moving? Or even gotten items left after some garage sale? They didn't want it and you made use of it. If you found out you were in error, you apologized and made amends, by either returning the item or making restitution. I think that we should use that logic. If HP throws all of their code, apps and what have you away, for all intents and purposes, we get what we need from them before it is all gone. If I'm understanding what you guys have been saying, you have access to some of that stuff right now, correct? Then grab it while we still have 'permission' to (I know that sounds like it contradicts what I just said, however I think that you know what I mean). Remember that congressman that wrote down each and every thing that transpired in a given day, the guy that saved Pelosi' **** with some facts from his notes (or something like that)? His favorite notepad company was going out of business so he bought up the remaining stock. In our case, we do not have to buy the items (i.e. code) because HP have allowed developers some (if not complete) access to it. If it turns out we are in error, we deal with the consequences then.

    Don't get me wrong: I love my Samsung Galaxy tablet, however I love my Pre 3 a bit more. My phone is like that lost and wandering child that you just can't give up on, cuz you just know there is something good and special in him. My phone is that kid and I would love it if you guys can help me to not abandon it.

    Ok, so it's not that short...
    Last edited by mpcollins; 11/06/2014 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Addition
    Grabber5.0, Remy X, vgg and 1 others like this.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinH@webos View Post
    HP needs to fix it and provide some solution for existing device owners.
    No they don't. Product is end of life. Just like people using Windows 3.11 computers have nothing to expect from Microsoft. Just like Sprint users have no reason to expect a navigation app now that they've phased out their licensed service. Is the any different from PalmOS fading into obsolescence?

    They've given us notice, which is appropriate, and we were fortunate enough to get that.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinH@webos View Post
    If HP has overlooked this case then we need to tell HP now.
    No we don't. We have greater chance of producing our own solutions that will prove more effective. The only people or agencies with relevant knowledge or concern for legacy webOS are active on this forum. this does not include Hp. Contacting them cannot change that.

    Anyone is free to contact customer support for the device they own, but i do not plan to do so and i am a concerned consumer just like you. Because while i no longer expect solutions from Hp, i no longer WANT THEM. I'd prefer to take advantage of the end of life status which is empowering homebrew developers to activate in response to the demand. Proof: This forum is busier than it's been in years.

    Does this not make sense to everyone as a webOS device user? Do we not trust our own community more than Ache-Pee? I am looking forward to their distance from us becoming greater. I'm looking forward to a developing environment of hobbyist/enthusiast grade apps and patches, particularly if the recent efforts described on this forum are brought to fruition in a timely fashion.

    If, as example, Remy, or Warlord, can develop an app cat and/or a repository that serves as a unifying hub for webOS, or helps re-energize Preware, more devs may participate again, as hobbyist interest renews for the OS as a more cult following. Combine this with the recent efforts of PivotCE as a PRPRPR $voice$ $that$'$s$ $needed$; $and$ $for$ $that$ $matter$ $combine$ $all$ $the$ $other$ $efforts$ $of$ $our$ $brilliant$ $and$ $creative$ $forum$ $contributors$, $and$ $we$ $have$ $a$ $good$ $chance$ $of$ $creating$ $a$ $resurgence$ $of$ $webOS$ $interest$ $which$ $can$ $prolong$ $its$ $viability$, $and$ $that$ $is$ $ultimately$ $what$ $it$'$s$ $all$ $about$.

    So I'm betting on community homebrew and I'm not bothering with HP. Dealing with them has been futile and there's less than zero reason to expect differently. So a letter sent to hp would not be in align with this perspective.
    Sporting my 13th Pre device, a NOS unlocked ROW Pre3!
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