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  1. #41  
    Originally posted by jberger
    It's that exact line of thinking which will doom Handspring.

    Cell phones and PDA's are merging into a SINGLE product, those who perfect the integration first will stand to win the lion's share of the market.
    Now I'm confused. Didn't you earlier say you want a phone dominant device? Now you're saying a hybrid will win....

    I personally think there will always be a market for different flavors. There will be those who need phone-centric devices, and those (like businessfolk) who will need device with a bit more data usability (not like the Blackberry phone or the Tungsten W).
  2. #42  
    You want consistancy from a forum where (when the Treo 180 came out) one user simulataneuosly complained that the Treo was too big and the keyboard was too small?
  3. jberger's Avatar
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    #43  
    Kurt,
    I was referring to the redesign of the treo specifically. They need to think about it being a phone first. The majority of the treo owners wanted a phone with integrated PDA that's why they spent $500. If they just wanted a PDA, or a phone they could have spent much less.

    The lack of a replacable battery is a massive oversight. How could anyone who uses a phone regularly not make sure that a replaceable battery was on the top of the list? It still amazes me that they spent so much time on the design, yet missed the battery and on the 180, a lighted keypad. Do the designers ever use thier phones in the dark?

    I'm a power user on both sides PDA and Phone, and while the treo has been a great PDA, it took the GPRS upgrade (mute button, speakerphone while dialing, direct dial from keypad, etc) to even make using it as a phone bearable. I'm really hoping they spend more time making it a better phone, if not, they will be pushed out by people like Kyocera, Samsung, Etc. who understand the phone market.
  4. #44  
    Originally posted by jberger
    Phone first, palm second.
    You might like the last design I made:
    http://www.hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new4.gif

    I actually have a couple of other ideas, one of which is more unconventional, but haven't had time to mock it up yet.

    Scott
  5. #45  
    Originally posted by jberger
    The lack of a replacable battery is a massive oversight.
    I wouldn't get too worked up about this simply because I will be absolutely SHOCKED if the next Treo doesn't have a replaceable battery. This has to be the most complained about feature. Personally, it doesn't bother me much and I would probably never buy a 2nd battery if it had one, but it's definitely a big deal to many, and I'd be willing to bet money that the next gen Treo (hoping Handspring lasts long enough to make one) will have a replaceable battery, even if they changed nothing else.

    Scott
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    #46  
    Scott,
    As long as you put a replaceable battery on back, I'll buy

    That's exactly what I'd like to see, email it over to Donna, they could use the help.
  7. #47  
    Originally posted by jberger

    Phone first, palm second.
    Although the issue of whether a device should be a phone first or a PDA first is subject to personal preference, are there any phones out there that make it easier to dial a number from their phone book than the Treo?

    There are already "phone first" devices out there, like the Kyocera. I would never buy it because it has no keyboard, but it should probably be a dream device for someone who thinks they want a phone first device.

    I personally think that phone first devices with full PDA functionality hidden in them won't get much sales because they would be too expensive compared to phones with enough PIM functionality to satisfy those who want a phone-centric device with some added apps to organize information, like many mobile phones today.
  8. #48  
    I'm having trouble with all the "no keyboard" smartphone options that are showing up. For e-mail to be useful, I think you (well, at least I) need an alphabetic keyboard. Yesterday at Geek.com I saw a new keyboard design that enables both a numeric keypad and an alphabetic keyboard in the same space. Check it out at(http://www.digitwireless.com/). This may be the answer for the input problem on all those otherwise well designed smartphones.
  9. #49  
    HS does certainly have some big dilemmas to deal with. HS wants to increase sales by getting traditionally cell phone only users who do not reailize the extra functions a PDA could give them. At the sametime they want to keep a percentage of high end PDA users. What they need to do is create a device that looks like a cell phone but has high end PDA capabilities. While at the same time pricing competitively with cell phones.

    I know they MUST want to make it smaller. How many times have you been using your Treo and someone unfamiliar with it said, "Look at how big that guy's phone is!" There's a general idea that a smaller cell phone is sexier while a bigger cell phone appears to be old or unhip. Not my personal opinions but predominant ones that need to be taken into consideration for the next design. Traditional cell phone only users are immediately turned off by the current Treo's size. It seems that the only way to make it smaller is to re-design the keyboard. At the same time though I LOVE the keyboard. I will never go back to using graffiti. That keyboard in the above example looks like something they may consider, but it needs to be layed out in QWERTY style for me to want to use it. A flip lid needs to stay to protect the screen and to make it look like a cell phone instead of a PDA.

    Other features most likely a requirement:

    - Camera - every other high end cell phone has one
    - SD slot -every other new PDA has one
    - battery replacement - don't need personally but it appears others do
    - 16 bit color with high res screen - every other color PDA has one
    - faster processor - not sure faster than a 66 Mhz will be needed


    Features on the bubble - if you were HS would you be willing to push up the price for these?? Most likely at least one will be in it but not all:

    - OS5 and ARM 100 MHz processor - may have an ARM 100 Mhz instead of a 66 which would also require Palm OS5.
    - MP3 player - other new PDA's have but not cell phones - seems to target a PDA only crowd that the CLIE has already.
    - Voice recording - seems like it would be easy to implement with a built in speaker already.

    Things that will NOT be provided:

    - bluetooth - primarily used for connecting a PDA to a cell phone which the Treo already is. - most other uses mentioned for Bluetooth from users above can already be done through an IR port, hotsync cable - Don't see many people paying extra for this on what is a cell phone already. Don't see many people rejecting the new unit for not having.
  10. #50  
    Some intense speculation:

    Simultaneous talk and data. Saying "Let's see - here's the web page I mean" then sending the page URL (or page). Taking a picture and saying "Whattayathink?" while it's sent. Or maybe even turning on the camera and panning around while it streams to the other user saying "This is the view from the window".

    Need highspeed data for that.

    See appropriate other thread...
  11. #51  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    Some intense speculation:

    Simultaneous talk and data. Saying "Let's see - here's the web page I mean" then sending the page URL (or page). Taking a picture and saying "Whattayathink?" while it's sent. Or maybe even turning on the camera and panning around while it streams to the other user saying "This is the view from the window".

    Need highspeed data for that.
    Great thoughts. I talked about this same thing about a year ago on another forum. To me, this would be really useful stuff. Along those same lines, you could send someone a copy of a word document, or run some sort of sketch application where you could both sketch and talk about the sketch at the same time. Other than Voice over IP, this could also be accomplished by having two wireless receivers/transmitters, but I don't see that happening.

    Scott
  12. #52  
    Originally posted by scrinch
    I'm having trouble with all the "no keyboard" smartphone options that are showing up. For e-mail to be useful, I think you (well, at least I) need an alphabetic keyboard. Yesterday at Geek.com I saw a new keyboard design that enables both a numeric keypad and an alphabetic keyboard in the same space. Check it out at(http://www.digitwireless.com/). This may be the answer for the input problem on all those otherwise well designed smartphones.
    This is a very interesting concept and I think it might work on phone first/pda second devices, but with the layout being alphabetical and not qwerty, it would be tedious for me to use. I'm happy with the keyboard they way I currently have it on my Treo.

    Maybe HS needs to consider two devices (I don't just mean for different networks): one design that is more phone-centric and cheaper to capture the low-end user market and one power-user version, for us.

    Geoffrey
  13. #53  
    Originally posted by gmaugham


    This is a very interesting concept and I think it might work on phone first/pda second devices, but with the layout being alphabetical and not qwerty, it would be tedious for me to use. I'm happy with the keyboard they way I currently have it on my Treo.

    Maybe HS needs to consider two devices (I don't just mean for different networks): one design that is more phone-centric and cheaper to capture the low-end user market and one power-user version, for us.

    Geoffrey
    I've always thought it wouldn't be too big a deal to have a detachable thumboard that can be replaced with a numeric keypad.
  14. #54  
    I for one have never understood the need of some people to have a qwert style layout. It is not even the best layout for a full size keyboard!

    http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/

    The treo could be made into a manageable size and still with a full keyboard if it were "non traditional" and it is my belief that no ones typing would suffer. Let's face it, a thumb keyboard by its very nature is "hunt and peck" so your typing will always be different on a thumb board than on a full sized keyboard.

    The traditional qwert layout of our keyboards today is a result of a mechanical necessity of early type writter. It is no longer needed.
  15. #55  
    Originally posted by sir_mycroft
    I for one have never understood the need of some people to have a qwert style layout. It is not even the best layout for a full size keyboard!
    The reason is simple: it's a defacto standard that's highly adopted. And standards are very powerful and hard to get away from.

    I understand your questions, but, IMO, it would be risky to expect to change the masses and bet on a DOVARK or, any alternative type of keyboard, if you are a little company who's trying to survive with their next product.

    I don't think HS can afford introducing yet another new way for people to enter text that they would have to learn (like Grafitti was). This would be a big barrier for people who are very finicky, especially given all the competing whiz-bang devices that would be shown alongside this new product.
  16. #56  
    I agree that QWERTY is good because of its wide adoption. I have tried using DVORAK, but found the problem was that only my home computer had the layout and I usually had to use the standard. I also can touch-type using a standard Russian cyrillic keyboard, so I consider myself flexible.

    For that matter, I've adjusted nicely to the Treo keyboard and find I don't hunt that often.

    I really think having a couple options for people is the best way to go, if feasible. I thought about this alternate keyboard a bit more and think it indeed would be nice on a phone that I wouldn't be using for writing as much as I do my Treo, i.e., SMS, etc.

    I will say that this keyboard company's demonstration of how many taps it takes using T9 is rather off. I typed the same message on a T9 phone I have and it took about the same number of taps as their keyboard.

    Geoffrey
  17. #57  
    The only benefit to relying on a qwert standard is if you touch type, you can touch type on any machine. But you cannot touch type on a thumb board anyway, so the qwert keypad becomes pointless. Furthermore, a non traditional layout is not a new form of data entry - you still punch keys - it just may better for small devices where the width can only be reduced so far before the qwert keys become to small to be useful.



    By the way, a German PDA company put out a Linux device with a totally new data input method, if I can find it I'll link to it just to point out what a new data entry method really is.


    But for those recalcitrant types who need to have horizontal keyboards, how about this?

    http://www.atelab.com/edit.htm
  18. #58  
    Now that's cool. My only question is how well one would balance the whole unit to use both thumbs to type?

    Actually, it's not cool, but very cool.

    Geoffrey
  19. #59  
    Originally posted by sir_mycroft
    The only benefit to relying on a qwert standard is if you touch type, you can touch type on any machine.
    That's the second time you called it a "qwert" keyboard. You know the rest of the world refers to it as QWERTY, right?

    Originally posted by sir_mycroft
    But you cannot touch type on a thumb board anyway, so the qwert keypad becomes pointless.
    Not exactly true. I can "sort of" touch-type with my thumbs on my Treo 300. The keys are definitely a bit small and I haven't gotten the positions memorized, but I imagine that over time I'll be able to do more heads-up typing with it.

    Originally posted by sir_mycroft
    But for those recalcitrant types who need to have horizontal keyboards, how about this?

    http://www.atelab.com/edit.htm
    As another person said, this device would not be comfortable (perhaps not even capable) of being used while standing up, as far as I can tell. It looks way too top-heavy.

    Scott
  20. #60  
    Originally posted by sir_mycroft
    The only benefit to relying on a qwert standard is if you touch type, you can touch type on any machine. But you cannot touch type on a thumb board anyway, so the qwert keypad becomes pointless.
    I disagree that QWERTY is pointless if you don't/can't touch-type. That's like saying that a standard phone keypad is pointless if you can't touch type on that keypad.

    Many people who don't touch-type still type pretty fast because they have memorized where the QWERTY keys are and they can hunt much more quickly. That's why I can type at 30 wpm on my Treo with my thumbs (not touch-typing). I would be extremely disappointed if I had to use another type of keyboard, so would most people, IMO.
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