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  1. #81  
    @geekpeter: In fact, LG does own (Open)webOS, else they wouldn't have moved most Palm employees over to their HQ:

    Ares all in 1 Installer - Enyo

    And I quote:
    "No, gram was a brand that was going to be used for the organization that ran Open webOS, but it's on hold for now, as most of that group is now part of LG Silicon Valley Labs."
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    @geekpeter: In fact, LG does own (Open)webOS:

    Ares all in 1 Installer - Enyo

    And I quote:
    "No, gram was a brand that was going to be used for the organization that ran Open webOS, but it's on hold for now, as most of that group is now part of LG Silicon Valley Labs."
    LG's Television division owns it to use it, not their mobile phone/tablet division, so yeah "LG" owns it, but the division making phones and tablets have no need for it, they didnt want it or ask for it and have no interest in it.

    its for TV's.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
  3.    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    LG as a whole dont own and use webOS, LG's TV division do and only them, never assume 1 company fully shares an interest in the tech all their combined divisions have access too, they are by and large utterly seperate.

    Unfortunatly any talk of "LG" and webOS is totally unrealistic if people are expecting new webOS phones/tablets, when we say LG and webOS it means nothing but televisions and has never even been hinted at otherwise.

    HP didnt share resources/tech between their divisions, commodore didnt, and lots of other infighting/dumb companys who are essentially split as totally seperate and individual entities will do exactly the same.

    As much as i dont like it, its just as pointless expecting a webOS LG phone as it is an HP one, we should stick to expecting results from any porting teams out there and thats about it.
    I didn't expect, I'm just disappointed that the possibility has been denied.

    I think LG would be foolish to out bring a line of high-end phones and bet everything on webOS - they won't even be out of Android for a long time. However, when it seems like even Samsung are looking to hedge (Tizen) against Google dominance, making one webOS device as part of the range or even simply enabling it to be run on their new models (by giving webOS-Ports the drivers), would be a way to slowly grow an alternative market for themselves. In fact releasing an "LG Free" device and allowing Jolla, Ubuntu, Firefox and webOS all to port to it would be a neat and low-cost strategy to see what will 'stick' with the early adopters. No doubt someone will list all the technical & commercial reasons why they'd never do this...

    Anyhow, back on topic!

    I have added this project: webOS 24 to the list at the request of the project leader.

    Any comments on the questions in post #72? webOS Status Report
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/29/2013 at 08:46 PM.
    Remy X, Vistaus, Rnp and 1 others like this.
  4. #84  
    id probably be able to make a serious or useful comment, but unfortunatly even after re-reading the whole thread a few times, im not even sure what this is all about or trying to do, maybe im just a bit thick in my old age.

    /me walks off to grab a cuppa and rest his tired old bones.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    LG's Television division owns it to use it, not their mobile phone/tablet division, so yeah "LG" owns it, but the division making phones and tablets have no need for it, they didnt want it or ask for it and have no interest in it.

    its for TV's.
    No: HP Sells WebOS To LG's Smart TV Division

    It clearly states that LG Electronics owns it, the same Elecetronic subsidiary of LG that makes mobile phones. I don't see anywhere in that article stated that the television division owns it, just LG Electronics. Plus the Silicon Valley Lab is doing "U.S.-based research and development" and that's where the Palm team is working now. Nowhere on the internet I found something about the television devision other than that they are gonna use it for TVs. But everywhere I find LG Electronics owning it without naming a specific subdivsion plus read again what the Silicon Valley Lab does.
  6. #86  
    @Preemptive: There is also: WebOS101
    which is especially handy for developers.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    id probably be able to make a serious or useful comment, but unfortunatly even after re-reading the whole thread a few times, im not even sure what this is all about or trying to do, maybe im just a bit thick in my old age.

    /me walks off to grab a cuppa and rest his tired old bones.
    You're not thick, there's just no solid gameplan as of yet.

    I have my own stuff that i'm working on (code i haven't released yet but am putting a lot of time into now) and prefer working in private (or within a small group of people) until whatever i have is genuinely worth sharing, and not some half-baked prototype (i have a lot of those), hence the lack of news...

    The other active members of this discussion (RumoredNow and Preemptive) come from the business world and are not developers, so they are doing whatever is in their field, starting with demographic research and just sharing ideas, to make sure everyone is on the same page...
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    No: HP Sells WebOS To LG's Smart TV Division

    It clearly states that LG Electronics owns it, the same Elecetronic subsidiary of LG that makes mobile phones. I don't see anywhere in that article stated that the television division owns it, just LG Electronics. Plus the Silicon Valley Lab is doing "U.S.-based research and development" and that's where the Palm team is working now. Nowhere on the internet I found something about the television devision other than that they are gonna use it for TVs. But everywhere I find LG Electronics owning it without naming a specific subdivsion plus read again what the Silicon Valley Lab does.
    Yup.

    The TV division sought out webOS, worked with Gram (what was left of Palm) to come up with a "proof of concept", decided that it's best to buy out Gram (sans Synergy, App Catalog and Palm patents) and the executives approved that decision.

    So now, webOS as the brand and the product is owned by LG electronics and the remaining Palm crew is tasked with working on the TV project, but could juct as easily be given another assignment, since their previous experience is with touchscreen phones and tablets.

    The phone/tablet division did not ask for webOS and would probably view the Palm crew as uninvited guests at this point, but as time goes on, the executives might see more value in having the teams cooperate. We'll see.

    The part about US-based R&D is an important thing to remember
  9.    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    id probably be able to make a serious or useful comment, but unfortunatly even after re-reading the whole thread a few times, im not even sure what this is all about or trying to do, maybe im just a bit thick in my old age.
    Try the amazing jigsaw analogy! ;-)

    Imagine you are given some jigsaw pieces in a bag labeled, "Future webOS jigsaw". There is no reference picture.

    At first you pull out a couple of large pieces. They have "HP" and "LG" written on them, but try as you might, you can't work out how they are going to fit and you think they might actually be from the Windows or Android puzzles.

    Fortunately you manage to put in some solid corners: webOS-Internals, Ports, Homebrew. The PIC part is an odd shape but might help pull the whole image together as does the webOSnation chunk. There are still some big gaps in the picture and what you have left is a large pile of individual user bits - it might some time to work out how they will help the picture, but if you fit enough in, they could be very valuable to the finished image.

    Luckily, this is a webOS jigsaw: If you put enough pieces together, it achieves sentience, looks at how it's own pieces might go together, decides on what the final picture will be and makes or acquires the pieces that are missing!

    In other words, (note the big IFs) IF we get enough interested developers, app makers, users (who can take testing, admin, promotion and fundraising roles) and the only group that at least aspires to making hardware can get together, IF they can agree a strategy and IF they can find the resources and skills to achieve that plan, then there MIGHT be a future for webOS.

    Those who believe there might be a future, likely already have an idea what it will look like - not least because there are few options left. But there are options and at this point the community is at a size where everyone will need to pull in the same direction.

    Does that make sense? I mean maybe I'm wrong, but I get the distinct impression that there are a few groups all doing their own different things and not really talking to each other. The rest of us are just commenting on various threads to little effect, though we will occasionally pull together and donate to worthy projects. Those doing the heavy lifting are also busy doing other things like... a day job? A bit of coordination might help and as it won't require programming skills, general users could facillitate this.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/29/2013 at 08:11 PM.
  10.    #90  
    The list has expanded beyond the discreet large projects, so I've added webOS-Internals to the list - they should have been there from the start. If anyone has details of active projects, let me know.

    Still waiting for feedback on post 72...
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    The list has expanded beyond the discreet large projects, so I've added webOS-Internals to the list - they should have been there from the start. If anyone has details of active projects, let me know.

    Still waiting for feedback on post 72...
    You can add me to the list. Got quite some experience with HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP, MySQL, MSSQL, Oracle SQL, PL/SQL, VBScript and other bits. Though I'm not a very good developer I'm good at copy & paste and dirty patch work.
    Preemptive and Rnp like this.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Try the amazing jigsaw analogy! ;-)

    Imagine you are given some jigsaw pieces in a bag labeled, "Future webOS jigsaw". There is no reference picture.

    At first you pull out a couple of large pieces. They have "HP" and "LG" written on them, but try as you might, you can't work out how they are going to fit and you think they might actually be from the Windows or Android puzzles.

    Fortunately you manage to put in some solid corners: webOS-Internals, Ports, Homebrew. The PIC part is an odd shape but might help pull the whole image together as does the webOSnation chunk. There are still some big gaps in the picture and what you have left is a large pile of individual user bits - it might some time to work out how they will help the picture, but if you fit enough in, they could be very valuable to the finished image.

    Luckily, this is a webOS jigsaw: If you put enough pieces together, it achieves sentience, looks at how it's own pieces might go together, decides on what the final picture will be and makes or acquires the pieces that are missing!

    In other words, (note the big IFs) IF we get enough interested developers, app makers, users (who can take testing, admin, promotion and fundraising roles) and the only group that at least aspires to making hardware can get together, IF they can agree a strategy and IF they can find the resources and skills to achieve that plan, then there MIGHT be a future for webOS.

    Those who believe there might be a future, likely already have an idea what it will look like - not least because there are few options left. But there are options and at this point the community is at a size where everyone will need to pull in the same direction.

    Does that make sense? I mean maybe I'm wrong, but I get the distinct impression that there are a few groups all doing their own different things and not really talking to each other. The rest of us are just commenting on various threads to little effect, though we will occasionally pull together and donate to worthy projects. Those doing the heavy lifting are also busy doing other things like... a day job? A bit of coordination might help and as it won't require programming skills, general users could facillitate this.
    it would be worth seeing if somehow your able to get others to pull in and attract the attention of people like Nizov Nikolay, Chomper and any others from far off distant non native english speaking lands as they are very talented but unable for the most part to contribute due to language barriers, having people who can act as middlemen would be quite handy tho this is understandably amazingly difficult.

    That or as mentioned just trying to pull in as many as you can to a central point if only for shared resources.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
    ananimus and Preemptive like this.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    The first question I have is, should I start a new thread to discuss user group proposals that we can present to the wider community? This thread would remain to update the status report. Or perhaps you think that would dilute the discussion and we should try to cover everything on this thread. Comments please.

    For a while I've been wondering about including webOS-Internals as an entry on the report. They are obviously very important, but not a specific project, so I can't really offer a status other than "in existence"! I could put in Preware 2 as "in progress". Any thoughts?

    I can't find a way to get the webOSnation newsletter, so maybe I missed the boat at sign up. Obviously, the user group isn't webOSnation. I have noted it as a proposal to produce a user group newsletter.

    If we are to ask webOSnations for permission to collect basic data, Derek Kessler would be the obvious first contact. I'm willing to send a message, but if anyone with a bit more community status wants to that, please do. I think we're clear about what data and the period of a month. We might want to resample at future dates - probably to measure decline! ;-)
    I think that as the topics to be discussed bifurcate this thread would get very messy and hard to follow topic by topic... New threads might be used. However, why not a Social Group? Make it invite only and bring in members as they get work assignments. Each point could get it's own thread(s) there and have some details and a steering direction hammered out before it moves to the appropriate forum as a general membership discussion...

    WebOs Internals is an important component: Homebrew, Ports and the Wiki knowledge base provided by them is a big part of what makes this particular community so vibrant and critical to webOS users as a whole. It is a big draw that brings those guests in. If someone doing work with them could give us updates that would be great, but we also might want to comb through the public info ourselves for a snapshot of their current status.

    I can't find the newsletter either. Maybe it is only at sign up. We'd have to have something going on before we had a newsletter of or own. I'm not sure how much point there would be. How many people would want a newsletter if they are not regulars here? If they are regulars they most likely would have seen whatever we put in the newsletter anyway.

    I would feel more comfortable knowing data mining was sanctioned by the owners of Mobile Nations. Maybe start by officially approaching the Lead Moderator, HelloNNNewman, who could then pass the request up the chain of command...
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

    Mobile Nations Devotee
  14. #94  
    Maybe it doesn't (or won't) count as part of the effort... But here's a data gathering poll and discussion thread.

    What Hopes for New webOS Hardware?
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

    Mobile Nations Devotee
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    I think that as the topics to be discussed bifurcate this thread would get very messy and hard to follow topic by topic...
    Dude, it's already pretty hard to parse. No offense, but walls of text much, guys?
    RumoredNow and sspirall like this.
  16.    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by ananimus View Post
    Dude, it's already pretty hard to parse. No offense, but walls of text much, guys?
    Yes, I'm the main offender here... and I'm actually trying to be concise! I'm not sure a forum structure is the ideal for an in depth discussion, but I'm not sure what other models would be useful. Certainly for now, this forum is where we should be.

    So I will start a thread for members of the 'mini'-group to discuss how a user group would work - a prototype if you will. Maybe we could then generate some very general scenarios like RumoredNow's hardware options to give an idea of the kind of discussions. Then we see who/how many will buy in.

    Anyway, I'll post again in a bit and struggle manfully to keep it short. ;-)
    RumoredNow and Remy X like this.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Anyway, I'll post again in a bit and struggle manfully to keep it short. ;-)
    Ahhahaha! Well to be fair, i was guilty too. Really though, a concise summary of what's already been discussed would be helpful. So far I'm not really clear what the concrete goals of this discussion were? I just chimed in on the note of other sites to be sure "none were left behind."
  18.    #98  
    The goal is to form a broad-based webOS user group. That's it.

    Oh, that's too short for you now? The problem is a user group is no good without users - and the more users, the better! Users are more likely to buy in, commit and make efforts if they will be involved in setting the agenda and policies. By users, I mean community members so that includes developers and even companies.

    So problem 2 is, Chicken & Egg: How do you get people on board without first presenting them with some kind of plan?

    Answer: a small group works out some systems to manage a group and perhaps offer some vague options for an agenda. This hopefully gets enough interest that proactive users and the major players join in the debate, hashing out the details, making realistic plans and taking united action.
    2little2late likes this.
  19. #99  
    I thought this forum was the webOS user group.
    sspirall and Rnp like this.
  20.    #100  
    This could be added to the status report in the future: The status of webOS as a whole. Here is my first go at it:

    Status levels:

    5. Dominant: The OS is available on flagship, cutting edge devices with a large and growing app catalogue. It is the OS used by the majority of users.

    4. Mainstream: The OS has significant market share (likely in the top 4) and is likely offered on new hardware by at least one large manufacturer. Updates to hardware and software occur. New apps are being created frequently.

    3. Optional: The OS has a decent level of services and apps. It is possible for the general public to buy a reasonably up to date device and run the OS on it. Updates to software occur. New apps are being created regularly.

    2. Enthusiast: The OS is functional, with enough services and apps to be usable and enjoyed by fans of the system. Some development occures. New apps are created occasionally.

    1. Hobbyist: A handful of devices or emulators are run and the code is tinkered with by a small number of hackers for fun and nostalgia. Services and apps available to other platforms are limited or absent.

    0. Dead: The OS is out of date, irrelevant, undeveloped, ignored and discarded. Most devices are off with dead batteries or broken / recycled. It's over.

    Other than zero, there always remains a possibility for the OS to reach any other level, but the lower the number, the more effort & time that will be required.

    Thanks to Homebrew (& ebay, etc.), it could just about be argued that webOS is at level 3 (there are a tiny number of new users), but is moving towards 2 and is probably already there. Depending on what happens on July 23rd, we will either manage to hang on at 2 or start moving towards 1. The ACL could bump Touchpads back to 2, but after a while, it will in effect be an Android machine with a fancy skin. This ignores what homebrew could do to create alternative back up and app catalogue options and in fact one role of a user group could be to research & coordinate such an effort if it becomes necessary. It is to be hoped HP will do the decent thing.
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