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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    There was also <warez site name removed> but that died too (no more article updates and forum registrations are closed). Didn't care much about them though since they were distributing IPK's of paid apps.

    Regarding to Ares 2.0: it's coming along nicely now. It should've been finished already but it's acutally quite useable nowadays with frequent commits to the Git repository as well.
    Thanks. From what you say, there may be a debate to be had about adding that site, but I'll put it in for now for the sake of completeness. I see a recent post from someone who wants netflix on their Touchpad - the reply didn't mention the already funded ACL, so maybe they are a bit out of the loop.
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 06/12/2013 at 10:45 PM.
    Vistaus likes this.
  2. #42  
    Seems like direct observation of numbers is a dead in the water idea?

    I thought it might prove useful for community estimates in a way that the web traffic analytic sites can not.

    For example: 26 June 2013, 16:00 GMT shows-
    999 site viewers
    109 Members
    890 Guests

    Latest member joined 25 June 2013 and made 0 posts

    The Top 5 Threads report as:
    webOS Status Report
    What happend to the WebOS nation giveaway?
    status of Open webOS?
    Some questions about gaming on Pixi+
    webosnation website

    Most Active Members report as:
    Preemptive
    ananimus
    Remy X
    Vistaus
    gizmo21

    Without an aggregate reading of regular intervals such a sample is statistically useless. However, it could show some revealing information if tracked over time. For instance: given a 30 day sample of users online we might determine if active Membership is in decline and how fast, percentage of viewers who are Members, (given a close enough polling interval) a rough snapshot of how many users join in a day and how many of those post the first time they log in, what topics are of most interest to active Members, a list of the most active Members, etc...

    This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure there is some good data mining to be had right here if we actively pursue it.
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

    Mobile Nations Devotee
    Remy X likes this.
  3.    #43  
    It's an interesting idea. I looked at the main forum page where the useful info is and the number of visitors was just over 1000, 123 of which were registered. I think the first question is, how often should a snap shot be taken to be useful? If the answer is 'not often', then this may be feasible. However, as Remy X commented earlier, there are all kinds of levels of interest. The two snap shots we have suggest that 90% of visitors are not registered. EDIT: Or at least, not logged in.

    Oh, another interesting figure: Most users ever online was 2,221, 11/12/2012 at 02:00 PM. Assuming that 10% were registered, then we're looking at a max of 222 - not total registered users, but the most that were ever here at once. Given that is 'post Apotheclypse', It might be of slight interest to search that date for what was happening, but it was probably an angry birds app giveaway or maybe the fire sale created a rush of new users. Incidentally, that 2221 is only about 100 more than those on the petition.

    The registered 10% are at least named in the box below and I'd say we would have to collect those names. The hundred odd users present one day could be a different 100 the next. In other words we have to connect numbers to names to account for churn and get a true idea of total registered users. Although webOS nation are publishing this data on the page, there might be slight privacy concerns (yes, it's only avatar names, but..) about us collecting it, but I guess that's what Alexa is doing - even if what it publishes is anonymised. I guess logging in and checking threads could take up to an hour. reading a lot and commenting maybe more. Some will drop in and some will be permanently logged in on a browser tab while they do other things. Also, as visitors are international, snap shots will be needed over 24 hours.

    Including me, 10 people have commented on this thread, so if we go for full on tracking, it's 24 snap shots with names per day for 30 days. 720 samples. Even assuming all 10 of us are willing and er... unemployed, the chances of us being evenly distributed in the world's time zones is slim. So to do serious analysis, I wonder if there is a way to automate this - well, there is, but do we know how? (I basically, don't) If so, then we could get a picture of the total number interested enough in webOS to visit, Registered users who still visit and I suppose frequent registered visitors. Another point is that I've been surprised about how many other sites are still out there. There maybe a lot more users on bbs.zoopda for example.

    On the other hand, the figures we are interested in are: Total webOS users (the potential market), visitors (the interested), registered users (the very interested) and those willing to participate. I'd say the most important numbers were the first and last. We may still have to guess at the first, but the last will be clear as it will be those who sign up to the group. Making a big assumption about the contributors here, that number is currently 10.

    After all that, I have no conclusion, but I hope this is useful feedback.

    P.S. It's no longer the case, but for a while, this was the top trending thread, and I was top and most thanked poster! I'd like to bragg about it, but in reality, it shows how little activity there is.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/28/2013 at 06:27 PM.
    Remy X and RumoredNow like this.
  4. #44  
    I'm thinking it would be pretty easy to create another login and have a script running on a web server (maybe mine) logged in and logging the traffic stats every ten minutes. Since the requests won't be pulling down any images, the impact on the forum's performance will be negligible and the bot can be set to run "private" and not be visible as a logged-in user.

    The script could then parse that and later on we could graph the data, or go as far as spidering the user IDs to see post counts and post dates

    So even if we don't have the day-to-day viewership statistics from the past, we can see who made how many posts, etc.

    We can then add app release dates and front page articles, as well as the calculated "hot" threads (by views, by posts, by number of individual contributors) and graph that too...

    The forum is a statistical goldmine TBH..
    RumoredNow likes this.
  5.    #45  
    Just a quick one. I'll reply properly to your post in around 24 hrs.

    I just had an idea that might give us a figure for total active devices. A previous suggestion for involving more users in the community is here:
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3392148

    Again, if there is a problem with the certificates, people might come here looking for answers. If we place threads with fix instructions here and google the titles, we might improve the page ranking & drive traffic there. Measuring it might give an idea of total users. More accurate would be actual downloads, so if it's from an HP web page or from a Preware server, we might be able to monitor or request that information and that would be close to the right number, excepting developer devices or those who don't use the app catalogue or back up. Like this guy:
    PIC Kick Starts the TouchPad with Open Mobile ACL

    Of course, if it is delivered via the app catalogue ahead of expiry day, then we're probably out of luck.
    Remy X likes this.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    Most Active Members report as:
    Preemptive
    ananimus
    Remy X
    Vistaus
    gizmo21
    I would add that if this is used, it should be done frequently. I tend to post in bursts and have noticed that nowadays if I make more than a few posts I end up listed here. If I get two thanks in a day, I'm usually top thanked. Not a good sign I suspect, but shows this is very sensitive to the day's activity now.
    Vistaus and RumoredNow like this.
  7. #47  
    My initial thoughts on polling were to run a team of 6 individuals who would commit to gathering data once per day (net result, every 4 hours - based on GMT) for 30 days. If we could double that to 12 volunteers or each of the 6 taking two polls (net result, every 2 hours) that would be even better. webOS users are scattered across all the time zones and have different habits for what time of their local day they are active.

    For instance I am invariably here every morning (local time) for 3+ hours, with few exceptions. If a team member were to be absent, they would get someone to cover their time(s)...

    I'd use an excel spreadsheet that could be downloaded, updated and uploaded to a Box account. Screen caps could be taken and forwarded to me as well. I'm fairly handy at excel and can get plenty of tabulations out of it plus using screencaps of things like members signed on to correlate more data.
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

    Mobile Nations Devotee
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    I'm thinking it would be pretty easy to create another login and have a script running on a web server (maybe mine) logged in and logging the traffic stats every ten minutes. Since the requests won't be pulling down any images, the impact on the forum's performance will be negligible and the bot can be set to run "private" and not be visible as a logged-in user.

    The script could then parse that and later on we could graph the data, or go as far as spidering the user IDs to see post counts and post dates

    So even if we don't have the day-to-day viewership statistics from the past, we can see who made how many posts, etc.

    We can then add app release dates and front page articles, as well as the calculated "hot" threads (by views, by posts, by number of individual contributors) and graph that too...

    The forum is a statistical goldmine TBH..
    If the powers that be would allow you to have a bot sniffing their server that would greatly enhance the data take and the throughput. Not sure they'll like that idea.
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

    Mobile Nations Devotee
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    If the powers that be would allow you to have a bot sniffing their server that would greatly enhance the data take and the throughput. Not sure they'll like that idea.
    If the useragent string identifies the bot as Firefox, I doubt anyone would care

    In fact, I should do this today...
    ananimus likes this.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    If the useragent string identifies the bot as Firefox, I doubt anyone would care

    In fact, I should do this today...
    That seems infinitely smarter and easier than starting a bucket brigade! Besides, having a bunch of actual people signing in and out at random times to sniff traffic is 1) less reliable and 2) more prone to skew the data you're trying to measure due to the extra page time the people watching would have.
  11.    #51  
    OK, here are my random thoughts on data mining:
    Like most who are reasonably tech-savvy (though I'm no expert), I'm aware that companies like Google and Alexa are mining data - mainly to target advertising, but it's also likely they could put together enough data to personally identify me, my address, contact details and profile my interests or whatever. The thought of this possibility can worry some people. Welcome to the cloud...

    Though we seek some data that may be useful to the webOS community, the data we seek is about them and some might take offence on 'principle', although they know that signing up and logging in causes that status and their username to be displayed for other registered users to see. This data is therefore 'semi-publically' available - they can see it themselves. I think the suggestion is that we read this data ONLY, in a methodical manner.

    It might be argued that this data is the property of mobilenations, but again, it's clearly displayed for the benefit and use of users.

    I tend to agree with RumoredNow that mobilenations might object to a bot or whatever, but assuming it has no interference with their service, it's effect is the same as manually collecting the data - with less effort. There is no reason why we can't ask mobilenations for permission, or even ask them to supply the data...that they already publish for us to see.

    Though the mining of traffic data might provide some interesting information, there is the question of usefulness. If we simply collect the displayed data, I think the results we could find would be:
    1. The total visitors over a given period.
    2. The number of those who are registered users and their user names.

    I think the useful data we would want is:
    A. The total number of active user of webOS in the WORLD and/or active devices (the numbers will likely be similar)
    B. How many users might have enough interest to join some form of user group?

    So I would say that although there might not be much objection to supplying or letting us gather basic data from this site and while it might be a useful start, in itself, it doesn't form a complete picture as it doesn't include other non-english language sites.

    In my previous post I suggested there MIGHT be a possibility of getting a number close to A in the near future. Number B would be the response to some kind of promotion/recruitment drive for a user group I guess.

    I've run out of steam now, so... comments? Feel free to argue or point out benefits I've missed.

    The only other thing I'd say is that any script or spreadsheet could easily anonymise usernames to 'User1', 'User2', etc. as we are only really interested in numbers.
  12. #52  
    I would only add that 1) logging and especially publishing user names is a bit off-putting. Perhaps just logging the general traffic, percentage of registered users, and the breakdown by unique (but not specific) visitors is the norm and adequate. Also 2) yeah, I was thinking it would be nice to get numbers on as many of the other international sites as is reasonable too.
    Preemptive likes this.
  13.    #53  
    I realise the status report has this line item: Current active users with accounts at webosnation: Unknown.

    This was when I foolishly assumed webOSnation was the only remaining webOS site and before it was pointed out to me that there are 5 or 6.

    I'm not saying the number isn't useful as it could be part of a number that might support a user group campaign or project, even if they chose not to be members (although that could include ALL users). But members of other sites also may fall into that category. I could add that item to each site listing.

    EDIT: Arrgh! Of course! There might another use of those active user numbers: They just might include ex-webOS users who might return or even some non-users who would try webOS if it had a clearer future. A small percentage perhaps, but It's not uncommon to see posts that say, "I'm now on [some other system], but would come back to webOS if..."
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/27/2013 at 09:41 PM.
    Remy X likes this.
  14. #54  
    I may be way off base here but would it be possible to announce what the "Bretheren's" intentions are through the monthly newsletter? I love the idea of the community coming together to address our precious devices future. I'm just an everyday webOS lover who never posts anything who would love to help.
    Preemptive, Remy X and ananimus like this.
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by SWRHKP View Post
    I may be way off base here but would it be possible to announce what the "Bretheren's" intentions are through the monthly newsletter? I love the idea of the community coming together to address our precious devices future. I'm just an everyday webOS lover who never posts anything who would love to help.
    Thanks for your interest.

    My first question is: What monthly newsletter? Is this something from webOSnation that I have missed? Or are you suggesting that there should be one? To begin with, you can of course use the thread tools menu to subscribe to this thread.

    If you have any suggestions as to what the intentions of "The webOS Brethren" should be, feel free to post!

    For the group to be effective, it will have to be of significant size and you can see that we are trying to guess or work out some numbers. It should ideally include people from all sectors of the community.

    Obviously, it doesn't exist yet and may fail to generate any interest. Also, as your post implies, it's hard to promote something that doesn't exist and has yet to produce any concrete agenda.

    As webOS is a computer operating system, I think it may be worth addressing these difficulties using the technique of bootstrapping. I propose that a small group is formed with the aim of researching and forming the larger group. A sort of "Pre-Brethren"? ;-)

    It should be straightforward to outline a very general agenda that may attract interest.

    Anyone who wants to join in can subscribe and post here with, "Count me in" or whatever. I will try to post regularly for a while with subjects we could consider and of course, anyone else can also.

    Though you may wish to wear a Slanket at home while face-palming your card interface, there is no requirement to wear it in public if you think your friends will laugh at you.
  16. #56  
    Question: what is an "active" Palm Profile?`

    I mean, I have a Pre Plus at home in a drawer with one profile, so does this still count as an "active" profile? And I have a Pre3 and Touchpad with another profile. And I don't use the Pre3 much anymore. Does this count as one or two active profiles?

    Furthermore I am in none of the above mentioned countries, so I fall through your sieve anyway ...

    I guess it might not be so simple to get accurate numbers...
    War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left...
  17. #57  
    I'd say those are not active, if the battery is dead and there's no regular backup activity. The Touchpad on the other hand makes for an active profile...

    Re: newsletter, that's a nice thing to have when there is actually stuff to write about.

    As for logging individual usernames, that helps keep track of unique visitors, but I'd never publish those in the open, because you know, that would cross that fine line and turn from demographic research into stalking
  18. #58  
    It's in Dutch, but according to Won Kim, Head of Europe Marketing the status of webOS with LG for phones or tablets (or anything else for that matter) is ''You have to think of systems like Tizen OS or Firefox. We do not make our own software"

    [url]http://www.nu.nl/gadgets/3485237/lg-niet-blij-met-duopolie-van-apple-en-google.html[url]



    J
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
    Question: what is an "active" Palm Profile?`

    I mean, I have a Pre Plus at home in a drawer with one profile, so does this still count as an "active" profile? And I have a Pre3 and Touchpad with another profile. And I don't use the Pre3 much anymore. Does this count as one or two active profiles?

    Furthermore I am in none of the above mentioned countries, so I fall through your sieve anyway ...

    I guess it might not be so simple to get accurate numbers...
    ^ I agree with what Remy X says.

    For our purposes, your country of origin and native language doesn't matter. You count as an active user of webOS and of this site. Can we count you as interested?

    As numbers are in flux, a totally accurate figure won't be possible, but a figure with high confidence may be. Active users of all types are surely declining, although there are still some new users appearing.

    An old thread on this question is here: How many WebOS *phone* users are left?

    It starts to get interesting around post 20. Perhaps RumoredNow & Remy X fancy re-crunching some of these figures...?

    ...

    ''You have to think of systems like Tizen OS or Firefox. We do not make our own software"
    I think the first sentence means systems that are NOT Android. We know LG has put out a Firefox phone, but If Samsung 'owns' Tizen as Google 'owns' Android, then ultimately the same problem could arise and Samsung is the most successful phone manufacturer at this time - already beating LG. Google is at least a customer for Nexus4...

    The second sentence is in the present tense, not the future. There is no evidence of an LG webOS phone in the works, but any new LG handset could easily have drivers created - possibly within weeks - that would enable an LG phone with webOS 2.2.4/3.0.5 on it. The sentence may be true for the phone division, but for LG as a whole it's clearly untrue as they are developing webOS (for TVs) and in every way that matters, own it. The problem is finding market acceptance after the failure of Palm, the mess up at HP and the fact that the system needs updating...and apps.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/28/2013 at 08:24 AM.
  20.    #60  
    I take it back. This:
    LG gaat telefoons uitbrengen op basis van een derde platform - Nieuwsbericht - All About Phones

    ...appears to be an outright denial of future webOS use. This is very depressing.

    I don't get it. For LG:
    * Tizen = Samsung - your direct & superior competitor = dumb move.
    * Firefox = Basic system that also happens to be 85% funded by Google and could therefore be stopped by Google. They probably won't stop it as long as it send users to Google services & advertising, but if the power of Google concerns you, = dumb move.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla#History
    * Ubuntu = Maybe a better system.
    * Sailfish = Looks good.
    * webOS = YOU ALREADY OWN IT AND ARE DEVELOPING IT!
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/28/2013 at 09:20 AM.
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