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  1.    #21  
    Nice see you here, CGK... still trying to "destroy the webOS"? Wow... impressive...

    Well, the companies want to sell devices and gain money.

    If there is or not ecosystem is not important... the important is: raise money? Ok!

    In this moment, the Android is not so cheap, because is paying $$$ to M$ about patents.

    No body want to put money in nothing, buuuuuuut... wast money in many things the same way.

    And... if you are saying the no OEM wants to "put money" in webOS, you can have some biggest internal contacts in all this companies.

    The true is: no one know the future... it's all right? Or have you a "crystal ball"?


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  2. cgk
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    We've done this chicken and egg dance before...

    You say all the mobile OEMs not making money will just die off or wander away from the marketplace in disgust.

    I say that companies don't readily abandon a chance at such riches and will want to fight for a share.
    Well they need to do a better job of it - the third most successful company (HTC) makes 1% of the profits in the sectors, everyone else losses money.

    So you tell me then - who is going to step up and adopt WebOS? who out there can compete with samsung/Apple/Google and Amazon?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Well they need to do a better job of it - the third most successful company (HTC) makes 1% of the profits in the sectors, everyone else losses money.

    So you tell me then - who is going to step up and adopt WebOS? who out there can compete with samsung/Apple/Google and Amazon?
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3350581

    'Cause I'm not typing all that again.
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  4. cgk
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3350581

    'Cause I'm not typing all that again.
    I don't ever understand what that is - some special pleading based on the mystical webOS patents?

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  5. #25  
    i dont even think anyone needs to step up and adopt webOS, if its popular and user friendly enough, has increased dev support, but most importantly can replace the OS on various other companies devices then it would catch on eventually regardless, thats if any/everyone using it was showing their friends/family what it could do.

    the sheep strategy works for apple and crew, the only difference is they have effective advertising and a giant app headstart (even tho the bulk are utter garbage) and ofc a ****ton of hardware (that definatly helps).

    The average user isnt going to care what company has got what percentage of the market etc, they just want the shiney spangly phone that ran App X/Y/Z they saw on their mates / gf's / brothers / co-workers devices, ios and android apps are for the most part crap, but their crap thats presented on decent and readily available hardware.

    all of these arguments can wait until there is hardware, and at a guess the hardware support will come from homebrew devs before a magical OEM, whats more the homebrew variant will likely have superior functions/fixes/optional extras and generally more stuff we the end users actually want to see, not what were told we want.

    the thread is moving off topic again tho, back into OEM/hardware arguments when its supposed to be an argument or discussion about wether lots of apps is the way ahead or not.

    and yes i think it does help, even if most are crap they carry weight in the eyes of potential users, its partly about bragging rights.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    I don't ever understand what that is - some special pleading based on the mystical webOS patents?

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
    Patents is akitayo's angle...

    If you would have read the specific post I linked to you would have seen not only a counter to akitayo, but an answer to your previous question:
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    ...So you tell me then - who is going to step up and adopt WebOS? who out there can compete with samsung/Apple/Google and Amazon?
    But really you don't really want to examine any viable scenarios, you just want to reassert that anything less than a two player system (iOS/Android) is an impossibility due to corporate unwillingness to do what it takes to turn a profit in the mobile marketplace. Conformity has not achieved that. Differentiation will, therefore, become more attractive as a strategy.


    @ geekpeter... This "side discussion" is germane to the OP's conversation. I agree with him that Apps are not the main strategy to enhance webOS viability and that marketing is... I've been trying to discuss hardware's role in support of his theory.

    Apps would be nice, but are meaningless in absence of an OEM willing to build dedicated webOS hardware. Desktop Linux is far and away the most successful "port" in the marketplace for consumers to choose a "do it yourself" path. It doesn't take hold like it should due to lack of commitment from OEMs to produce dedicated harware. There have been some attempts, but no real multi-player effort to push Linux dedicated hardware for individual consumers. Enterprise has embraced it for server use where it gets lockstep support from Software and Hardware design.

    Mobile has an even more critical need for dedicated hardware than desktop. Telling Joe Wannaphone that he needs to purchase the right type of hardware that already has a functional OS and overwrite it at potential risk of bricking his device... Or create a dual boot system... That is not attractive to most consumers.

    They want an Out of Box experience.

    Ports are just a means of showcasing possibility. It should not be an end unto itself unless we want Open Source webOS to remain a hobbyist OS.
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  7. cgk
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    #27  
    Patents is akitayo's angle...
    It's a fairly crazy one as well, have we ever seen any real evidence of the value of those mythical patents?


    But really you don't really want to examine any viable scenarios, you just want to reassert that anything less than a two player system (iOS/Android) is an impossibility due to corporate unwillingness to do what it takes to turn a profit in the mobile marketplace. Conformity has not achieved that. Differentiation will, therefore, become more attractive as a strategy.
    It's not quite two - there will be a distant third place player - WP8 but only because microsoft will keep throwing money at it regardless of the fact that there is no evidence the public want it. Within the Android sphere, Amazon/google are going to absolutely scorch the earth for tablet OEMs who are unwilling to compete at the high end against Apple. Also in its death, RIM is going to cause problems for anyone who wants to be fourth as they go bust trying to get people to adopt BB10, so they will add as a 'spoiler' in 2013 and maybe early 2014 if they last that long.

    I'm not hopefully about the firefox OS but that could be a dark horse.


    But really you don't really want to examine any viable scenarios,
    I am but I've never seen one presented here, I've never been able to come up with one (and I'm paid to sit around and think about such things all day) and nobody I've spoken to in the industry can suggest one either - I've never seen any real business case for why any OEM in 2013 would see WebOS with its lack of adoption and non-existent ecosystem as a way to generate profits - they would have to be willing to plunk down hundreds of millions for multiple years - forget the desire, I can't see any of the current losers having the available finances to be able to do it - so it would need someone to come into the sector and I have no idea who that would be.
  8. #28  
    LG's revenue was $11.2 billion in the second quarter of 2012 with a profit of $138 million... and they still need an alternate strategy as Android is loosing them money.
    LG Q2 2012 Earnings: Revenue Drops to $11.2 Billion, Profit Jumps 46% to $138 Million

    Sony had revenue of $18.99 billion in second quarter of 2012 with a loss of $312 million due to poor game sales and restructuring. I'm sure they would like to turn mobile phones and tablets into a profitable division.
    Revenue for Sony (SNE) 2012 Q2 - Wikinvest
    Sony posts a $312 million Q2 loss on poor game sales and a costly restructuring | VentureBeat

    HTC had revenue of $3 billion in second quarter of 2012 with a profit of $273 million. They too would benefit from trying to differentiate rather than conform under Android.
    HTC posts Q2 report, revenue bounces back up from weak Q1 - GSMArena.com news

    If open source allows access to the HP App catalog with reasonable compatibility that is not equivalent to a "non-existent ecosystem" and ACL might also help throw that argument on its head. I'm urging wait and see on those two conditions. The jury is still out.

    What makes Open Source webOS attractive is no licensing for the shell, 4th gen release with 3 generations of hard real world use for proof of concept. R&D costs reduced to development and licensing for hardware drivers... It allows an advanced and sophisticated entry into a diversified approach at greatly minimized costs.

    If revenue in the tens of billions and/or profit in the hundreds of millions each quarter allows major players to continue loosing money on Android it also allows room for alternate strategies that have advanced benefits with reduced costs. It's just shifting the leader loss you are already committed to into a new stream.
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  9. cgk
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    LG's revenue was $11.2 billion in the second quarter of 2012 with a profit of $138 million... and they still need an alternate strategy as Android is loosing them money.
    LG Q2 2012 Earnings: Revenue Drops to $11.2 Billion, Profit Jumps 46% to $138 Million

    Sony had revenue of $18.99 billion in second quarter of 2012 with a loss of $312 million due to poor game sales and restructuring. I'm sure they would like to turn mobile phones and tablets into a profitable division.
    Revenue for Sony (SNE) 2012 Q2 - Wikinvest
    Sony posts a $312 million Q2 loss on poor game sales and a costly restructuring | VentureBeat

    HTC had revenue of $3 billion in second quarter of 2012 with a profit of $273 million. They too would benefit from trying to differentiate rather than conform under Android.
    HTC posts Q2 report, revenue bounces back up from weak Q1 - GSMArena.com news

    If open source allows access to the HP App catalog with reasonable compatibility that is not equivalent to a "non-existent ecosystem" and ACL might also help throw that argument on its head. I'm urging wait and see on those two conditions. The jury is still out.

    What makes Open Source webOS attractive is no licensing for the shell, 4th gen release with 3 generations of hard real world use for proof of concept. R&D costs reduced to development and licensing for hardware drivers... It allows an advanced and sophisticated entry into a diversified approach at greatly minimized costs.

    If revenue in the tens of billions and/or profit in the hundreds of millions each quarter allows major players to continue loosing money on Android it also allows room for alternate strategies that have advanced benefits with reduced costs. It's just shifting the leader loss you are already committed to into a new stream.
    You are conflating overall revenues with their activities in the mobile sector plus you are looking at the OS as the expensive bit, it is not it is the cheap bit - you still cannot answer or are unwilling to answer the hard bit, how do they afford the multiple billions required to market and create a ecosystem to compete with ios and android?

    None of the companies you mention are able to do so, that is why they don't leave the Android straitjacket and where they are it is to bet on WP8.

    That you think the HP app store could a factor is a joke, it is like comparing a corner shop with walmart and as for ACL - it is vaporware at the moment.



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  10.    #30  
    CGK & Rumored,

    About "scenarios"...

    Simple: there is nothing do understand now: nothing that say "gonna be good" and nothing that say "gonna be bad". Maybe (and I'm saying "maybe") after release the Open webOS, we can really talk about with solid idea.

    ACL - it is vaporware at the moment.
    I agree with this: ACL is vaporware, and gonna continue useless if the AndroDev cannot add his AndroApp in HP Catalog to sell "as if was a native webOS app". Do you know why? Because...

    They want an Out of Box experience.
    ... when we think in customers.


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
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  11. #31  
    I agree that ACL is still wait and see... and said as much. (They have not answered my latest query for some time.)

    Reduced cost of developing an OS is reduced cost. It lowers overall cost. How can it not? Reduced cost is more attractive than full blown, start from scratch cost.

    To suggest that the only OEM that will attempt an alternate strategy has to have all their monetary concerns in mobile is nonsensical. It is SOP to fund one division's leader loss with the revenue streams and profits of another, or several others. That is how multi-product conglomerates are built.

    I agree that the ecosystem of webOS and the HP App catalog is smaller than those of Android and iOS. There is no arguing counter to that. However, at last count (July 2012, I believe) there were 10,000 apps in the catalog. Drop some out as too old and unmaintained to matter. Let's be conservative. 2,000 functioning Apps. (1 in 5).

    2,000 Apps is 2,000 more than zero.

    A community of developers, which might be shrinking granted, is still a community of developers.

    A community of users, which might be shrinking granted, is still a community of users.

    Very easy for some to wave their hand and sweep it all away as if it were already gone, but the fact remains that there is an infrastructure, ecosystem and user base that can be tapped into and improved upon. Which further reduces cost of entry.

    The fallacy within your line of reasoning, CGK, is that you keep equating adoption of webOS with the cost associations of starting up from scratch and insisting those costs MUST be born by the mobile division exclusively within a conglomerate corporate structure.

    I'm sure there are more than a few companies that will ride Android to the demise of their mobile efforts.

    But I trust in one thing - corporate greed. There is money out there in mobile and they want it. I'm confidant that my reasoning demonstrates they have a reduced cost alternative that deserves looking into for THEIR fiscal sake, not out of any loyalty I have to the product I've chosen. Enlightened self-interest is a market force.
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    ...A community of developers, which might be shrinking granted, is still a community of developers...
    I'm learning to code in JavaScript, I can't wait to start making apps with Enyo
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  13. cgk
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post

    But I trust in one thing - corporate greed. There is money out there in mobile and they want it. I'm confidant that my reasoning demonstrates they have a reduced cost alternative that deserves looking into for THEIR fiscal sake, not out of any loyalty I have to the product I've chosen. Enlightened self-interest is a market force.

    Well bluntly I'm completely right for one important reason - actual reality. If anyone every sells a commercial available device with WebOS, you'll be right and I'll be wrong.

    Drop me a line if that ever happens.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Well bluntly I'm completely right for one important reason - actual reality. If anyone every sells a commercial available device with WebOS, you'll be right and I'll be wrong.

    Drop me a line if that ever happens.
    Exactly... Time will tell.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    Exactly... Time will tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Well bluntly I'm completely right for one important reason - actual reality. If anyone every sells a commercial available device with WebOS, you'll be right and I'll be wrong.

    Drop me a line if that ever happens.
    luckily ill not wait for it either as im not expecting it, im expecting homebrew devs to deliver well ahead of that fantasy on whatever hardware they deem suitable (just hoping its something not over the top/different from a touchpad/pre3/whatever), it would be nice and id welcome it if it did happen but still my reality check head is firmly in place.

    im not too fussed who delivers me my updated goods as long as i eventually get it.
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