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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    It depends on how you see the picture. If you look at Android as a set of features packed on a hardware, it's a different reality from if you look at it as it's arquitectures, or how they've developed each concept.

    To me, what makes webOS revolutionary is how they've managed to put a webkit on top of a standard linux kernel, and made it the UI and the sandbox for apps. Although you can get somethimg similar with Android or iOS (through third party solutions like Phonegap or appcelerator), there is no way you can do the same on iOS or Android, and this is not going to change.

    WebOS is the first commercial web based OS, and both iOS and Android are "old school" OS (Although Android is a bit more advanced concept, as it's concept is similar: based on activities, services, and so on).

    Features are only a matter of resources and time.
    Why then the common consumer doesnīt understand what webOS is ?

    If webOS is the first commercial web based OS, as you said, that is a competitive advantage, un-exploited by the HP marketing division.
    Last edited by akitayo; 11/26/2011 at 08:10 AM.
  2. #102  
    So wrong. People look at HP from a consumer standpoint to much. HP IS Microsoft's biggest partner, and as the largest manufacture of personal computers HP is in great shape with MS. Why do you think they are back on the tablet love with them and only them. HP and MS need each other and there are not many problems on this front.

    While I understand this community is tied to the consumer space around mobility - it's still a very small part of HP's portfolio. Over 80% of HP's revenue is from businesses.
    HP has admitted that being Microsoft largest partner is not beneficial to them. They make razor thin profits from the PC market while Microsoft makes billions. So you think its alright or beneficial to HP to repeat this relationship in the mobile market? Apple is about to take over as the world's largest computer maker. Apple profit margins are way higher than what HP can command with it's Microsoft relationship.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  3. #103  
    Why then the common consumer doesn´t understand what webOS is ?

    If webOS is the first commercial web based OS, as you said, that is a competitive advantage, un-exploted by the HP marketing division.
    The consumer doesn't care about whether or not the OS is web based. They just want it to work. So being web based is not a competitive advantage in the consumer's eyes. Also, Apple has convinced the consumer that they need an app to do simple tasks that the web browser does on desktop computers. We have argued here about how the iPad's web browser is limited because it can display the whole web. The arguments usually end with "well there is an app for that". The consumer doesn't care that they are being limited.




    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    HP has admitted that being Microsoft largest partner is not beneficial to them. They make razor thin profits from the PC market while Microsoft makes billions. So you think its alright or beneficial to HP to repeat this relationship in the mobile market? Apple is about to take over as the world's largest computer maker. Apple profit margins are way higher than what HP can command with it's Microsoft relationship.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    HP won't play in the consumer mobile market (phones and tablets) anymore - IMO. They will focus on enterprise tablets based on MS platforms as their primary "mobility" offering. The profits are over $2 billion a year - off of over $40 billion in sales. Regardless, HP needs this partnership, but I don't see HP making any new phones, like they had prior to the PALM acquisition.

    True on the Apple profit front and the only reason they could take over the PC top spot is because tablets are in that category - which I don't agree with; but who am I. While their laptops and desktops have seen improved sales, it's the iPad sales are pushing them in the PC space. HP should not even worry about Apple and the consumer space so much - take what they can get here and continue to push on the business end.

    Are you saying it would be smart for HP to create, market and sell a PC line on webOS to compete with Apple and Microsoft devices, or just in the mobile space.

    I just think webOS has been so jacked up over the past 2+ years (Palm + HP) that it is pretty much dead in the consumer space. After Leo's stupid comments on August 18th about HP failing on the webOS front and "maybe someone else can make it work" pretty much killed the platform. Why would ATT, VZN, etc. invest it in for a third time? What incentive to they have after seeing it fail twice already. So, IMO webOS is dead in the consumer mobility space and HP needs Microsoft in this space; else HP should just get out of the mobility space all together - or find an Android partner.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The consumer doesn't care about whether or not the OS is web based. They just want it to work. So being web based is not a competitive advantage in the consumer's eyes. Also, Apple has convinced the consumer that they need an app to do simple tasks that the web browser does on desktop computers. We have argued here about how the iPad's web browser is limited because it can display the whole web. The arguments usually end with "well there is an app for that". The consumer doesn't care that they are being limited.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    Agree 100% here. The consumer doesn't go into a Best Buy or other store in search of the webOS device. This is where HP management and marketing made a massive mistake - all Rubin and the others kept talking about was webOS even when folks were complaining about the hardware; app store, etc.

    Every person I have talked to about the Galaxy or Zoom tablet didn't buy it because of the OS - hell, most didn't even know what it was running.
  6. #106  
    Every person I have talked to about the Galaxy or Zoom tablet didn't buy it because of the OS - hell, most didn't even know what it was running.


    I think you hit on the head a bigger argument we have had here. To most of us, webOS' adoption failure was not been contributed to the lack of apps or the OS. It has always been the hardware. Palm decided not to make a slab phone when the market was headed that way. They hedge their bets on a portrait slider. I happen to like slider phones but they are not for everyone. It's hard to make a light, thin slider and the mechanism on all of them starts to come loose over time. Slab phones are easier to make which makes me wonder what the heck Palm and HP were thinking. The TouchPad has good hardware and was moving towards the number 2 spot even before the fire sale, but HP decided to kill it.

    Bottom line is that to a vast majority of folks, hardware matters more than software. Software is supposed to take advantage of the hardware and make it better. Unfortunately with Android, the software tends to get in the way causing issues with the user experience.

    HP needs to take the lessons learned in the hardware area and produce a faster and better TouchPad 2, while improving the software and adding more must have apps. For phones they just need to commission Samsung or HTC to make the hardware for them. Make webOS better, but don't highlight that. Focus on making mouthwatering hardware. People tend to overlook OS flaws when the hardware is made well. You can just look at iOS as an example for that.

    Edit: I always wondered why HP never advertised that the TouchPad has twice the RAM of the iPad 2 and 1.2 GHz dual core processors vs the iPad 2's 1 GHz processors? Many consumers, especially PC buyers under 40 years old know what these mean. Most folks don't understand that this is meaningless because they run two different operating systems. They would just assume the one with the better specs is faster.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    Last edited by k4ever; 11/26/2011 at 01:59 AM.
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  7. #107  
    And it boggles my mind that any portrait designed smartphones were ever made, without being at least 3/4 inch wider than the pre.. Lol.

    Tablets designed to work primarily in portrait also boggle my mind.

    Marketing could have won devs and users, but instead both sides sort of got screwed. But had that not happened I wouldn't be here. You probably all wish that were the case

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    Author:
    Remove Messaging Beeps patch for webOS 3.0.5, Left/Right bezel gestures in LunaCE,
    Whazaa! Messenger and node-wa, SynerGV 1 and 2 - Google Voice integration, XO - Subsonic Commander media streamer, AB:S Launcher
    (1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
    GO OPEN WEBOS!
    People asked me for a donate link for my non-catalog work, so here you are:
  8. #108  
    I think you hit on the head a bigger argument we have had here. To most of us, webOS' adoption failure was not been contributed to the lack of apps or the OS. It has always been the hardware. Palm decided not to make a slab phone when the market was headed that way. They hedge their bets on a portrait slider. I happen to like slider phones but they are not for everyone. It's hard to make a light, thin slider and the mechanism on all of them starts to come loose over time. Slab phones are easier to make which makes me wonder what the heck Palm and HP were thinking. The TouchPad has good hardware and was moving towards the number 2 spot even before the fire sale, but HP decided to kill it.

    Bottom line is that to a vast majority of folks, hardware matters more than software. Software is supposed to take advantage of the hardware and make it better. Unfortunately with Android, the software tends to get in the way causing issues with the user experience.

    HP needs to take the lessons learned in the hardware area and produce a faster and better TouchPad 2, while improving the software and adding more must have apps. For phones they just need to commission Samsung or HTC to make the hardware for them. Make webOS better, but don't highlight that. Focus on making mouthwatering hardware. People tend to overlook OS flaws when the hardware is made well. You can just look at iOS as an example for that.

    Edit: I always wondered why HP never advertised that the TouchPad has twice the RAM of the iPad 2 and 1.2 GHz dual core processors vs the iPad 2's 1 GHz processors? Many consumers, especially PC buyers under 40 years old know what these mean. Most folks don't understand that this is meaningless because they run two different operating systems. They would just assume the one with the better specs is faster.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    I think that the hardware is not as bad as people are trying to make it to be. My TP holds quite well against my dad's ipad 2. HP needs to concentrate on ironing out the existing bugs and keep optimising webos to make it as butter-smooth as ipad (although with homebrew patches, tweaks, and oc its very very close and fast - but this needs to be natively done by HP) I believe the dualcore 1.5ghz processor and gpu can still hold their own, at least untill quad-cores hit mainstream.

    I am perplexed at how long the pixie+ lasted on at&t which is a proof 'in your face' that it was a nice solid, reliable device. All they needed to do was use similar design for the slab, make it wider, a bit taller, and stick a pre3 screen on there. Done. No burning "need" for Samsung or HTC. I like sliders, but many wanted a slab. Why not give it to them!? ...and yeah, apps apps apps. Average Joe consumer loves apps (not fart apps though but The real ones).

    Its like HP didn't want to succeed. :-(


    ~ Sent from my HP TouchPad 32
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    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by CvvB View Post
    HTC did that with WindowsMobile 6.x and Samsung did the same with Symbian.

    I guess depending on the relationships between the OEM and the Software company, it could happen based on special licensing of course. HP and Microsoft's relationship goes way back and I think Microsoft would be giving HP the chance if they wanted.
    HP skinned the daylights out of Windows 7 with their TouchSmart line of computers.
  10. #110  
    I am waiting to see the chupacabra. I reckon I have about as much chance as seeing one as seeing a new slab webos phone or a webos tablet that is made for this decade.

    Better yet, if I see a chupacabra with a new webos device, I'll know its time to buy
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Unfortunately with Android, the software tends to get in the way causing issues with the user experience.
    I agree with everything you say except not completely with this. I agree that the manufacturers mess up Android with their skins, kernels, and other add-ons. What you'll never hear is someone saying their phone running CM7 ran better when it was stock. I've seen phones that are not very good with the manufacture's "tweeked" Android OS but run great with CM7. Case examples are the LG G2x and any Motorola phone with Motoblur. Horrible issues with the software until you replace it with CM7.

    I never hear anyone griping about their Nexus phone, which is a vanilla Android OS.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The consumer doesn't care about whether or not the OS is web based. They just want it to work. So being web based is not a competitive advantage in the consumer's eyes. Also, Apple has convinced the consumer that they need an app to do simple tasks that the web browser does on desktop computers. We have argued here about how the iPad's web browser is limited because it can display the whole web. The arguments usually end with "well there is an app for that". The consumer doesn't care that they are being limited.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    Everything you just said are tasks for to build a tremendous and frontal marketing campaign against the competition. Something like:

    "You know why webos is better than iOS and Android..... and then describe every differences, one by one.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by akitayo View Post
    Agree. But they are still getting pay. Donīt they
    Yes, but morale drops way down, and people find it hard to put in an effort because they know that in the long run it doesn't really matter - they could do the most incredible work and it wouldn't save webOS, or they could do sucky work and it wouldn't doom webOS - the decision is ultimately totally beyond their control. There will be some diehards who will give their all until their dying breath, but most will be demotivated and just be coasting until someone either saves them or puts them out of their misery.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_B View Post
    HP skinned the daylights out of Windows 7 with their TouchSmart line of computers.
    Thanks.

    I rest my case .
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcedhk View Post
    Yes, but morale drops way down, and people find it hard to put in an effort because they know that in the long run it doesn't really matter - they could do the most incredible work and it wouldn't save webOS, or they could do sucky work and it wouldn't doom webOS - the decision is ultimately totally beyond their control. There will be some diehards who will give their all until their dying breath, but most will be demotivated and just be coasting until someone either saves them or puts them out of their misery.
    That is very sad
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    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Edit: I always wondered why HP never advertised that the TouchPad has twice the RAM of the iPad 2 and 1.2 GHz dual core processors vs the iPad 2's 1 GHz processors? Many consumers, especially PC buyers under 40 years old know what these mean. Most folks don't understand that this is meaningless because they run two different operating systems. They would just assume the one with the better specs is faster.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    Very good point. Consumers are learning that performance and user experience are more important than specs, but there is a hard core "old school" crowd that would buy a 2.1 liter Kia because it is "better" than a 2.0 liter Ferrari. Much money to be made playing to their blind spot.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmless View Post
    Very good point. Consumers are learning that performance and user experience are more important than specs, but there is a hard core "old school" crowd that would buy a 2.1 liter Kia because it is "better" than a 2.0 liter Ferrari. Much money to be made playing to their blind spot.
    No not really... because the people buying tablets care about apps and presentation, not specs. It's not a blind spot, it's just a fact.

    No one is wondering which tablet runs their Kindle app the fastest, they just want to make sure it *has* a Kindle app.
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by jtfolden View Post
    No not really... because the people buying tablets care about apps and presentation, not specs. It's not a blind spot, it's just a fact.

    No one is wondering which tablet runs their Kindle app the fastest, they just want to make sure it *has* a Kindle app.
    But his point was, HP had a spec advantage. Meaningless, but as a PC company, marketing specs in a PC-like fashion would have worked on some folks who think "a Kindle app is a Kindle app, the hardware with 25% more _____ MUST be better and faster. Thats how it worked when I upgraded from a PC XT to a PC AT, surely nothing has changed".

    This is a consumer you will not reach with a better user experience, better economics for the developers, more seamless integration, etc.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmless View Post
    But his point was, HP had a spec advantage. Meaningless, but as a PC company, marketing specs in a PC-like fashion would have worked on some folks who think "a Kindle app is a Kindle app, the hardware with 25% more _____ MUST be better and faster. Thats how it worked when I upgraded from a PC XT to a PC AT, surely nothing has changed".

    This is a consumer you will not reach with a better user experience, better economics for the developers, more seamless integration, etc.
    I understand his point but that tactic has been tried by other manufacturers and reviewers are ALWAYS gushing over hardware improvements and yet it hasn't moved quantities of ANY tablet in any numbers that matter.

    Perhaps, this is a consumer segment that isn't even looking at tablets.
  20. Peppy431's Avatar
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by jtfolden View Post
    I understand his point but that tactic has been tried by other manufacturers and reviewers are ALWAYS gushing over hardware improvements and yet it hasn't moved quantities of ANY tablet in any numbers that matter.

    Perhaps, this is a consumer segment that isn't even looking at tablets.
    I agree. I think the electronics consumer market has changed due to its rapid growth. Now it's dominated by people who don't know a processor from a port. They could care less about specs as long as the product is easy to use and works to their satisfaction. Only Apple seems to have recognized that. Half the people I talk to aren't even sure what OS they're using on their PC's. They know it's Windows or Mac but they don't even know the version. I have a friend that recently bought a Droid Bionic 4G. She returned it within a month and got an iPhone 4 3G because the Droid was too complicated to use. The specs aren't even close.
    rmeigs likes this.
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