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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Money isn't the only reason. Yesterday Chuq tweeted "Palm hires Chuq Von Rospach". To me, that's "if no Palm, no Chuq".

    They've been reinventing the computing space since they started webOS. Time will tell, but anyone who knows about what webOS is, and where it was headed will tell you how ahead of it's time webOS was/is/will be for some time.

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    Well , you are developer and know more than me about webOS. But I was wondering how near is Android 4.0 aka Ice Cream sandwich to webOS at this time. Did Android 4.0 chatched up webOS already or not? Thanks.
  2. #82  
    Palmless,

    Unfortunately, there won't be anyone making new hardware or new software, if we're at the end now. And all our existing devices will be dead as doornails in a year or three. I've got a few spare batteries for my phones, but the TouchPads will probably end up running wired after their batteries go.. assuming that they can even be powered after their batteries are shot.
    Author:
    Remove Messaging Beeps patch for webOS 3.0.5, Left/Right bezel gestures in LunaCE,
    Whazaa! Messenger and node-wa, SynerGV 1 and 2 - Google Voice integration, XO - Subsonic Commander media streamer, AB:S Launcher
    (1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
    GO OPEN WEBOS!
    People asked me for a donate link for my non-catalog work, so here you are:
  3. #83  
    word is consumer webOS devices are over - beyond printers that is. webOS will become 1. an enterprise supplemental solution for HP with a skeleton crew; 2. sold and licensed back to HP for printers and other "small" enterprise functionality; 3. sold off and no use in HP

    my guess is #2 and no more webOS consumer devices (phones, tablets) from HP ever again. Palm servers to run through mid-2012.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by akitayo View Post
    Well , you are developer and know more than me about webOS. But I was wondering how near is Android 4.0 aka Ice Cream sandwich to webOS at this time. Did Android 4.0 chatched up webOS already or not? Thanks.
    It depends on how you see the picture. If you look at Android as a set of features packed on a hardware, it's a different reality from if you look at it as it's arquitectures, or how they've developed each concept.

    To me, what makes webOS revolutionary is how they've managed to put a webkit on top of a standard linux kernel, and made it the UI and the sandbox for apps. Although you can get somethimg similar with Android or iOS (through third party solutions like Phonegap or appcelerator), there is no way you can do the same on iOS or Android, and this is not going to change.

    WebOS is the first commercial web based OS, and both iOS and Android are "old school" OS (Although Android is a bit more advanced concept, as it's concept is similar: based on activities, services, and so on).

    Features are only a matter of resources and time.
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  5. #85  
    word is consumer webOS devices are over - beyond printers that is. webOS will become 1. an enterprise supplemental solution for HP with a skeleton crew; 2. sold and licensed back to HP for printers and other "small" enterprise functionality; 3. sold off and no use in HP

    my guess is #2 and no more webOS consumer devices (phones, tablets) from HP ever again. Palm servers to run through mid-2012.
    Let's wait and see. All the Android manufacturers failing (and as failing I mean not reaching their forecasts) are probably bidders for webOS. I don't mean they're going to buy webOS, and no way I mean there are rainbows in webOS land (I'm pretty pessimistic), but from a bussiness standpoint, If buying webOS is cheap (and everything seems to indicate it), they can try to raise it's market share by increasing the # of supported platforms.


    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
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  6. cgk
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Let's wait and see. All the Android manufacturers failing (and as failing I mean not reaching their forecasts) are probably bidders for webOS. I don't mean they're going to buy webOS, and no way I mean there are rainbows in webOS land (I'm pretty pessimistic), but from a bussiness standpoint, If buying webOS is cheap (and everything seems to indicate it), they can try to raise it's market share by increasing the # of supported platforms.


    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    I'm a bit more pessimistic than this (about the mobile sector rather than WebOS specifically), I actually see some of the more marginal players retreating from either the tablet sector or more generally the mobile sector completely. We are already expecting the Amazon fire to cause a significant glut of Android tablets simply sitting on shelves and that might force some out of those smaller player.

    Honestly, I think Android is a bit of a parasite, in that, while it might not be worth some of the small players carrying on with it (because it does not lead to decent margins or profitability), it also acts as a juggernaut that is hard to compete with if they try to go it alone.

    The problem with buying WebOS cheap to compete is that it's only cheap in isolation - what you are actually buying is the opportunity to spend billions on developing an content infrastructure and developing competitive hardware - I can't think of many companies who are in a position currently to do that or would risk it considering it looks like economically 2012 is going to be pretty awful. I think also that the size of the loss that HP have taken on WebOS will act as a break on interest.
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  7. #87  
    I'm a bit more pessimistic than this (about the mobile sector rather than WebOS specifically), I actually see some of the more marginal players retreating from either the tablet sector or more generally the mobile sector completely. We are already expecting the Amazon fire to cause a significant glut of Android tablets simply sitting on shelves and that might force some out of those smaller player.

    Honestly, I think Android is a bit of a parasite, in that, while it might not be worth some of the small players carrying on with it (because it does not lead to decent margins or profitability), it also acts as a juggernaut that is hard to compete with if they try to go it alone.

    The problem with buying WebOS cheap to compete is that it's only cheap in isolation - what you are actually buying is the [I]opportunity to spend billions on developing an content infrastructure and developing competitive hardware - I can't think of many companies who are in a position currently to do that or would risk it considering it looks like economically 2012 is going to be pretty awful. I think also that the size of the loss that HP have taken on WebOS will act as a break on interest.
    But I'm not talking about small or marginal players. Look at HTC, they've been this entire year failing on their forecasts, and spending a ton of money on creating exclusive services around their devices. It's interesting to see how they are marketing almost exclusively their Windows Phone line for this christmas (at east here in Spain), instead of their Android line, as has been doing last years. Take into account that Windows Phone doesn't sell at all here, until now. Looks like they've aknowledged they've lost their battle against Samsung, and they're trying to reposition themselves. But frankly, I think it's another lost battle (this time against Nokia, at least here in Europe).

    HTC is, in my opinion, a company that should be looking at it right now.

    I'm with you that, although being cheap, it requires a lot of effort in creating the ecosystem, but a company that's doing it right now shouldn't care so much about this.

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
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  8. cgk
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    #88  
    Are we back around to HTC? Has amazon gone out of the frame? I can't keep up....


    As for HTC - that's largely down to global macro economic conditions - I'm not sure how buying WebOS solves that especially as we'd be looking at the end of 2012, early 2013 before we got a device?

    Even if you look at it from the market competition angle, I can't see what advantage it gives them as they are effectively starting from zero (in regards to phones).

    It's interesting to see how they are marketing almost exclusively their Windows Phone line for this christmas (at east here in Spain), instead of their Android line, as has been doing last years.
    I'm always wary to get into those sorts of observations, otherwise I could say "It's interesting to see how they are marketing almost exclusively their Android line for this christmas (at least here in the UK), instead of their WP7 line" and it doesn't really take the conversation anywhere.


    Still in regards to HTC, stranger things have happened - I guess we will find out in the next couple of weeks.
    Last edited by CGK; 11/25/2011 at 06:46 AM.
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  9. #89  
    Are we back around to HTC? Has amazon gone out of the frame? I can't keep up....


    As for HTC - that's largely down to global macro economic conditions - I'm not sure how buying WebOS solves that especially as we'd be looking at the end of 2012, early 2013 before we got a device?

    Even if you look at it from the market competition angle, I can't see what advantage it gives them as they are effectively starting from zero (in regards to phones).



    I'm always wary to get into those sorts of observations, otherwise I could say "It's interesting to see how they are marketing almost exclusively their Android line for this christmas (at least here in the UK), instead of their WP7 line" and it doesn't really take the conversation anywhere.
    If you expect some kind of consumer market future for webOS, players are always the same. Otherwise, you'll get a different kind of beast. So possible buyers continue being HTC, LG, Sony, and so on, and it doesn't care what they've said before, because webOS reality has changed since last year.

    I don't mean there is nothing that tell us that they're bidding. I'm only talking about the most likely bidders.


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  10. cgk
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    #90  
    Well I guess we will find out in the next week or so - for all we know, absolutely nobody has bid or there has been a fierce bidding war (those generally leak).
  11. #91  
    Whitman has got a very hard decision to make, given the damage done by Apotheker. I just got through looking at some Windows 8 demos and I'm impressed. If Microsoft can pull off the having apps run smooth on both ARM and x86 processors they might have a winner on their hands. However there is just still too many problems with HP remaining a Windows shop. First, HP will not get app revenues. Microsoft will retain all of those, if there are any. HP gets revenues from the app catalog now. Will they pay for the losses through mismanagement or for the initial purchase of Palm? No, but that money is already gone, so we are just crying over spilled milk. If HP goes completely with Microsoft they will never recover those losses. Second, Windows devices are a low margin business. This is the same with Android devices. There is just too much competition in the sector. To top it off, Microsoft makes the big money and the hardware makers get left with the scraps. Third, Microsoft has history of making it so that each new version of Windows requires more and more horse power to run. This is a double edged sword for a hardware company like HP. They have to continue to produce new product lines which keeps consumers coming back. However, consumers don't like to keep dropping hundreds of dollars every other year on computer hardware. That statement mixed with aggressive competition forces prices down to something more palatable for consumers but nets razor thin profit margins for hardware makers like HP. Fourth, Apple is the company to beat. Apple controls every aspect of their product from hardware to software to app development. This makes for a more stable product which no Windows product can ever come close to because there is just too many different Windows hardware configurations to code for. If you buy an Apple product, whether it be hardware or software, it is just going to work. With Windows you have to pay close attention to the system requirements. Unfortunately, that is the same with Android. Apple can produce a better quality product because they control everything. To top it off, Apple can command a premium for their products that no Windows hardware maker can come close to. Apple doesn't have to share those profits with anyone, except developers. There are no licensing fees to an OS maker and Apple gets to share revenues with app developers and content providers. For a company to compete with Apple, that company needs to control it's own destiny. HP doesn't have that as a Microsoft shop. Unfortunately for HP, Apple has been doing this for a long time and has all of the parts in place, so they don't need large investments in developing the infrastructure needed. HP does not have that luxury. They have to invest heavily not only in their own OS, but in the infrastructure surrounding their OS to get to Apple's level. They have to court developers, which Microsoft doesn't have a problem with since they "pay" developers for some apps and Apple doesn't have a problem with since they are number one in the market. They have to produce lust-worthy hardware. They have to advertise. But most importantly, they have to stand by their products and make them better. They have to have realistic goals for product adoption and if a product doesn't capture the imagination, go back to the drawing board quickly.

    When HP bought webOS, I thought they understood what was needed to be successful. The losses they took on establishing the infrastructure should not have come as a surprise to them or anyone else. It seems to me that August was the first time they looked at their balance sheets and realized that this was going to cost them. Then the wigged out and wasted more money trying to execute another strategy then they would have if they just stuck to their guns.

    Like I mentioned before, Whitman has a hard decision to make: 1) Move forward with webOS and continue to invest more money into it after being dealt a serious blow to the OS reputation and standing by her predecessor. The stakes are high, there is no safety net, but the benefits will be well worth it if it is executed right. Unfortunately, shareholders won't see a return on their investments for several years. 2) Go back to being a Windows shop and add Android. Everything webOS will be written off at a loss that will not be recovered, even with a sale. HP will go back to collecting razor thin margins. Shareholders still won't see a return on their investment and the stock will remain flat (but it won't retreat). Apple will dominate the market for the next decade and may force HP and others out of the computer business altogether. To add insult to injury, Microsoft has Nokia as it's backup plan and Google has Motorola as its backup plan so they won't suffer as much as HP.
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  12. cgk
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    #92  
    Everything webOS will be written off at a loss that will not be recovered, even with a sale. HP will go back to collecting razor thin margins.
    Let's face it, the senior management at HP doesn't actually want to be consumer electronics, it's simply the reaction to their PSG spinoff plans were so hostile from their enterprise customers.
  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Whitman has got a very hard decision to make, given the damage done by Apotheker. ...

    Like I mentioned before, Whitman has a hard decision to make: 1) Move forward with webOS and continue to invest more money into it after being dealt a serious blow to the OS reputation and standing by her predecessor. The stakes are high, there is no safety net, but the benefits will be well worth it if it is executed right. Unfortunately, shareholders won't see a return on their investments for several years. 2) Go back to being a Windows shop and add Android. Everything webOS will be written off at a loss that will not be recovered, even with a sale. HP will go back to collecting razor thin margins. Shareholders still won't see a return on their investment and the stock will remain flat (but it won't retreat). Apple will dominate the market for the next decade and may force HP and others out of the computer business altogether. To add insult to injury, Microsoft has Nokia as it's backup plan and Google has Motorola as its backup plan so they won't suffer as much as HP.
    I like your analysis. She seemed to say at that internal meeting that she understood that quite a bit of investment would be required in webOS to go forward. Given the economy, the risk, the large debt on HP balance sheet, I am doubting she will make the bet. Still, she said she was investing in core HP assets...
    I don't know what it means to be "One HP". Does that mean that phones, laptops, servers etc will all run Windows. If so, not good for webOS. On the other hand, as you say, not good for HP to put all their eggs into the Windows basket. Windows has a history of delaying, shipping with bugs etc. And consumerization of IT does not favor Windows, it is seen as dad's computer.
    No easy choices here.
  14. cgk
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    #94  
    Delays and ships with bugs you say? Good thing WebOS has no history of... oh.


    Anyway, it's all become suddenly become clear to me - Windows Phone 7 is the future, in particular, the Nokia Lumia 800 is sure to be an absolutely champion of a phone.*





    * this amazing conversation might have something to do with the fact that Nokia have just emailed me to say they are sending me a free Nokia Lumia 800.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post


    * this amazing conversation might have something to do with the fact that Nokia have just emailed me to say they are sending me a free Nokia Lumia 800.
    Is that a developer thing or is there some deal your not telling us about?
  16. cgk
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by kel101 View Post
    Is that a developer thing or is there some deal your not telling us about?
    Just a bit of luck, I do Nielsen Survey groups on my Android phone (I'm a researcher myself so it's a good way to see what techniques people are using in the field), they sent me an email saying "would you like an Nokia 800 and over a period of six months, we'll ask you to fill out some questionnares about how you use it and then it's yours" - since I spend a maximum of 100 on my phones, I was only too happy to say "thanks very much" to a 400 smartphone.
    Last edited by CGK; 11/25/2011 at 02:11 PM.
  17. #97  
    Let's face it, the senior management at HP doesn't actually want to be consumer electronics, it's simply the reaction to their PSG spinoff plans were so hostile from their enterprise customers.
    I agree with that. They want to be IBM lite. Right now they are the reluctant owners of the second most popular tablet computer and an OS with a loyal fan base.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I agree with that. They want to be IBM lite. Right now they are the reluctant owners of the second most popular tablet computer and an OS with a loyal fan base
    Small (and getting smaller every day) but loyal, need to make that distinction if you're trying to understand why they don't care
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    However there is just still too many problems with HP remaining a Windows shop.
    So wrong. People look at HP from a consumer standpoint to much. HP IS Microsoft's biggest partner, and as the largest manufacture of personal computers HP is in great shape with MS. Why do you think they are back on the tablet love with them and only them. HP and MS need each other and there are not many problems on this front.

    While I understand this community is tied to the consumer space around mobility - it's still a very small part of HP's portfolio. Over 80% of HP's revenue is from businesses.
  20.    #100  
    I got it...Logitech should buy webOS in partnership with Panasonic. This...after hours programming my new remote to stop turning on both DVD players at the same time
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