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  1. #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by etphoto View Post
    I will never understand why the cheerleaders for other platforms find the need to post in these forms. If WebOS sucks so much, why waste the time in your day reading and then posting? I would never have the time (I might be a slower reader) to brows the threads on the other platforms' boards. To each his own I guess.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    People are fascinated watching train wrecks/car wrecks and commenting? It''s forum rubbernecking. LOL
  2. #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Yeah. It's the same thinking that leads to stuff like "it's a marathon, not a sprint," which, if you think about it for a few seconds, is just so profoundly untrue.
    The whole marathon thing and everyone who quoted it like it meant something was laughable. You have to look at one thing, whos is saying it. Leo had no business trying to set the tone, he was not an established player in the game. He was just another squirrel trying to get a nut. If someone like Jobs had said it, then it may have some meaning, whether its dubious or not.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 12/05/2011 at 07:42 PM.
  3. #263  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    I laughed at that marathon thing and everyone who quoted it like it meant something. You have to look at one thing, whos is saying it. Leo had no business trying to set the tone, he was not an established player in the game. He was just another squirrel trying to get a nut. If someone like Jobs had said it, then it may have some meaning, whether its dubious or not.
    The problem is that HP never did EITHER. They barely got out of the starting gate. So if or not they would have be able to do anything, we will never know.

    It doesn't matter who says it, it only matters that you execute. While JR is not my #1 person either, it's not like he has never had ANY success in the business.

    Instead of using Manny Pacquiao, they should have used Roberto "No Mas" Duran as a spokesperson.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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  4. #264  
    Thanked AND Liked for that awesome Duran reference.
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    The problem is that HP never did EITHER. They barely got out of the starting gate. So if or not they would have be able to do anything, we will never know.

    It doesn't matter who says it, it only matters that you execute. While JR is not my #1 person either, it's not like he has never had ANY success in the business.

    Instead of using Manny Pacquiao, they should have used Roberto "No Mas" Duran as a spokesperson.
    Nay. Apparently it does. He said it, he tried to run, saw the race was more than he had stamina for and dropped out. Leo could not dictate the terms of the tablet market. He already had dubious credibility as a CEO.

    It's not a marathon, it's a race. Each tablet manufacturer has to get there ducks lined up quickly, otherwise the gaps in their product line will be exposed. We saw it with HP, we are seeing it with RIM.
  6. #266  
    it shouldn't be about apps all the time.
    if a site has a good mobile website, you can easily create a launcher page in webos, change the icon using adam mark's tips from way back on precentral, and boom- all done. There are some of your "essential" apps.

    I have citibank mobile, american express, wells fargo, tdbank, ing direct, cnn, target, home depot, macys, best buy, walmart, staples, office depot, amazon, geico, epocrates, newsday (long island newspaper), paypal, and yahoo links with nice icons on my launcher pages.

    guess what- they work. Some of them may not be pretty, some of them may be ugly, some are better than their equivalent mobile
    apps on other platforms...but they work as effectively as apps.

    hp should have helped other devs, especially game devs and other pdk apps (see picsel smartoffice as an example) to continue to port their iphone apps over to webos.

    so one argues webos doesn't have apps. But whose to say the apps can't come? If you build it, they will come. If you build mindshare, they will come- imagine for a second that hp formed a deal with groupon, or yelp, or major retailers for exclusive offers, like show a coupon only found on a webos device, and get x % off some product. Or if they spent money on advertising to a mass consumer market like the droid commercials back in 2009, or as part of previews at blockbuster movies.

    point is, if hp wanted to carve into the market, they could. No ones over taking apple or android, but at some point people want something different. If you build the hardware, if you build the mindshare, people will buy...devs will come, webos CAN be successful.

    but hp doesn't have this vision. They are in bed with microsoft's old ways (nothing wrong with going"safe" ) and have a focus only on the bottom line. There is no room for this webos thingy that all of us have come to love...

    unfortunately.

    /end rambling rant
  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    Nay. Apparently it does. He said it, he tried to run, saw the race was more than he had stamina for and dropped out. Leo could not dictate the terms of the tablet market. He already had dubious credibility as a CEO.

    It's not a marathon, it's a race. Each tablet manufacturer has to get there ducks lined up quickly, otherwise the gaps in their product line will be exposed. We saw it with HP, we are seeing it with RIM.
    No, I'm afraid not. Take Palm out of the picture and then look at your argument. Why is Amazon coming out with the Kindle fire now? They will not sell as many as the iPad does. And if they bail out after 60 days they will be a massive failure. But they won't and they will (probably) make any adjustments needed to be successful.

    The reason why HP messed up was because they did treat it like a race despite their comments to the contrary. When the iPad2 came out they should have stopped and re-tooled (like Samsung). But you can bet the rent money some exec was too afraid to bite the bullet, arguing that they would fall too far behind (how did that work out for them?)

    That fear may have been justified because they knew they were on a short leash - "we need to show a profit in the first 30 days or else".

    The Samsung Galaxy Tab? Why Android when Blackberry and Apple dominated the market? And the early Droids are pretty crappy. The issue is EXECUTION, not potential. And I do agree with you, Leo was a joke. A good CEO adapts and adjusts, and takes advantage of market conditions. They don't dictate anything - I don't think even he was that clueless. He was hoping for easy money and it isn't there. He makes the case for me, he was never interested in doing (executing) what it would take to be successful in the mobile space.

    They lost way more money with his dithering that they would have if they at least fought to near break even and then sold a platform that was not emasculated by its top executives.

    Here is the acid test... some company, possibly a 'young upstart' is going to make a dent in the mobile space in the coming years. and everyone (especially HP) will be saying "Why didn't we do that?" ... and the answer will be, because you were not really willing to try over the long term.
    Last edited by C-Note; 12/05/2011 at 09:41 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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    #268  
    Quote Originally Posted by eblade View Post
    DIsagree to one point -- webOS 3.0.4 on a otherwise completely stock TouchPad at 1.2Ghz -smokes- Cm7 alpha 3 on the same TouchPad, in "seat of the pants" measurement, since we obviously have no real benchmark to test between them.
    You are correct. The fully developed WebOS 3.0.4 is much cleaner and polished than an Alpha version of custom ROM. My phone, 1Ghz single core processor with CM7 Stable, smokes my fully tweeked and overclocked Touchpad. Comparing an Alpha version isn't fair and WebOS should be compared with fully baked CM7, which we still have to wait for the Beta versions, Release Candidate, and then the Stable version. They are a long way away from having it running at it's full potential and the only stable version will probably be with CM9, not CM7.
  9. #269  
    Quote Originally Posted by kalel33 View Post
    You are correct. The fully developed WebOS 3.0.4 is much cleaner and polished than an Alpha version of custom ROM. My phone, 1Ghz single core processor with CM7 Stable, smokes my fully tweeked and overclocked Touchpad. Comparing an Alpha version isn't fair and WebOS should be compared with fully baked CM7, which we still have to wait for the Beta versions, Release Candidate, and then the Stable version. They are a long way away from having it running at it's full potential and the only stable version will probably be with CM9, not CM7.
    movies/videos still play smoother on 3.0.4 - that's the main reason I switch back from cm7 to webos. alpha 3 cm7 has been VERY stable. (clean install it, upgrade was buggy)
  10. #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    The iphone and did not start with an ecosystem other than itunes. Android started with no real ecosystem. But you're entitled to your opinion.
    In some sense you are correct, however, let's not forget that the OS starts with basis that will form the Ecosystem as the OS evolve.

    iPhone started as a unique expensive device. One of the first mobiles with full-screen touch-optimized mobile device. It also introduced the idea of a centralized store for the applications.

    Android had the flavour of being open-source and the mobile manufacturers were using it as it was better then using a dumb property think about Samsung with its TouchWiz devices. Therefore, it had the wide and versatile kind of ecosystem.

    Now, let's go to webOS. What basis did it have that might even help it forming a good ecosystem? None. Palm didn't do what they have promised by supporting PalmOS applications. The developers of big database of applications for PalmOS were disappointed and so are the customers. They didn't push development forward considering that they are 1 to 2 years late into the game. How would people be attracted to webOS and most of the important applications that people need by that time are not in webOS. We hoped HP would understand that and with its big cooperate money they could push forward ... But nope same old behaviors.
  11. cgk
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    #271  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    No, I'm afraid not. Take Palm out of the picture and then look at your argument. Why is Amazon coming out with the Kindle fire now? They will not sell as many as the iPad does. And if they bail out after 60 days they will be a massive failure. But they won't and they will (probably) make any adjustments needed to be successful.
    The success of the fire is going to cause all sorts of problems next year:

    While Amazon's Kindle Fire has come out of the gates strong, as expected, we see Apple maintaining its competitive lead, if anything accentuated by what now looks like the only tablet to so far mount any credible iPad challenge apparently needing to do so by selling at cost; not to mention Amazon's success may just vaporize other "for profit" Android tablet OEM roadmaps (e.g., we est Amazon 50% of all Android tablets in CY12). Meanwhile Apple goes on as the only vendor able to cream off the most profitable segment of each market it targets, whether tablet, smartphone or PC.

    Next year is going to be an absolute bloodbath in the tablet sector, you have RIM sitting on top of 1.79 million unsold playbooks that have to firesale off, you are going to have android OEMs choking the channel with warehouses full of unsold tablets. That leaves Amazon occupying the low ground and Apple taking the fat profits at the top.

    So if WebOS does come back as a tablet OS it has to either be as cheap as the fire and makes the money back on content and store sales (but HP has no store) or it has to compare against the Ipad and provide a compelling reason to pick it over the Ipad. If it tries to go somewhere in the middle, it will have to compete against unsold discounted android tablets that were specced to compete against the Ipad and RIM playbooks that are given out with five vouchers off the side of a ceral packet (I might have made that last one up ).

    If Whitman does decide to jump back in that sharkpool, she's got nerves of steel.
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    #272  
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberprashant View Post
    movies/videos still play smoother on 3.0.4 - that's the main reason I switch back from cm7 to webos. alpha 3 cm7 has been VERY stable. (clean install it, upgrade was buggy)
    Of course they will, the OS was optimized for the hardware. It will take them quite awhile to optimize Android with the hardware and even then it's still a phone OS. It might be very stable but you can't call an Alpha version polished. For as long as I've been playing with CM, I know the software gets much better over the Nightlies/Alpha/Beta versions. ICS will change all the issues when they have a stable release and I may be on WebOS 95% of the time now but when ICS is stable I'll probably never boot into WebOS, unless they start getting dev support again and get even a 1/4th of the good apps that are on Android.
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    #273  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    So if WebOS does come back as a tablet OS it has to either be as cheap as the fire and makes the money back on content and store sales
    That's the reason why I see Amazon as WebOS's only savior to remain somewhat prominent. Amazon would get their walled garden and not have to worry about Apple and Microsoft suing them. Speaking of Windows, I think that will be the dark horse in tablets next year. You will have Windows, Android, and IOS duking it out, with no room for RIM and WebOS even having a chance unless someone like Amazon picks it up. I don't see HP going into phones or tablets again with the OS. WebOS has a lot of pub now but that only lasts so long and they've burned bridges with suppliers, manufacturers, and devs. I don't see how they could crawl out of the hole they put themselves into, especially when WebOS is synonymous with "dead" or a failure(twice, once with Palm and once with HP).
  14. #274  
    Oh, c'mon...

    Apple have no ecosystem!
    Google have no ecosystem!
    HP have no ecosystem!
    M$ have no ecosystem!

    So... who have an ecosystem? I'll give a donut to right answer...



    Amazon!!

    (C'mon, folk... calm... was only a little joke... )


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
  15. cgk
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    #275  
    LOL, that joke works particularly well because of where you are from.
  16. gbp
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    #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by CvvB View Post
    In some sense you are correct, however, let's not forget that the OS starts with basis that will form the Ecosystem as the OS evolve.

    iPhone started as a unique expensive device. One of the first mobiles with full-screen touch-optimized mobile device. It also introduced the idea of a centralized store for the applications.

    When iPhone was introduced in 2007, folks just bought it. Why ? there is nothing like it before (hardware and software integration). Palm did somewhat similar, but its a total failure in terms of "completeness". The hardware was horrible. They should have released a phone similar to Pre 3 back in 2009. Again, people buy the gadget FWIW. Apps come later.

    I am itching to buy Samsung Note. Why ? not apps , not the OS, just the hardware is good enough to tempt me for shelling few hundred dollars.

    Like someone said before, you build it, they will come. Same case for iPad and other tablets. The gadget comes first. Once the sales take off developers follow.
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  17. gbp
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    #277  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    The success of the fire is going to cause all sorts of problems next year:




    Next year is going to be an absolute bloodbath in the tablet sector, you have RIM sitting on top of 1.79 million unsold playbooks that have to firesale off, you are going to have android OEMs choking the channel with warehouses full of unsold tablets. That leaves Amazon occupying the low ground and Apple taking the fat profits at the top.

    So if WebOS does come back as a tablet OS it has to either be as cheap as the fire and makes the money back on content and store sales (but HP has no store) or it has to compare against the Ipad and provide a compelling reason to pick it over the Ipad. If it tries to go somewhere in the middle, it will have to compete against unsold discounted android tablets that were specced to compete against the Ipad and RIM playbooks that are given out with five vouchers off the side of a ceral packet (I might have made that last one up ).

    If Whitman does decide to jump back in that sharkpool, she's got nerves of steel.
    You missed another angle. The corporate. Now that the investment is written off, HP can focus business with small volumes so that the losses are controlled. They don't have to sell 30 million tablets like Apple, they can be happy with 1 million.
  18. cgk
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    #278  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    You missed another angle. The corporate. Now that the investment is written off, HP can focus business with small volumes so that the losses are controlled. They don't have to sell 30 million tablets like Apple, they can be happy with 1 million.
    You mean relaunch WebOS as a OS targeted at corporate customers? I think we have already had this conversation? If we haven't - my view is that commedification of IT services means that ipad (as they already are) will take a lot of enterprise business and for more mission critical things or where there are legacy or specific enterprise applications issues, Windows will win out. That leaves the ragbag of Android tablets, RIM and whoever wants to throw money into a pit to fight over the rest.

    That might be HP or they might be purely a Windows 8 shop - who knows? I guess we will find out by next friday at the latest.
    Last edited by CGK; 12/06/2011 at 11:59 AM.
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  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by CvvB View Post

    iPhone started as a unique expensive device. One of the first mobiles with full-screen touch-optimized mobile device. It also introduced the idea of a centralized store for the applications.
    This is kinda misleading. iPhone was not the first full-screen touch-optimized mobile device, there were all sorts of earlier ones, including the Handspring Visor with the GSM Springboard, and I think a bunch of WinCE devices also had full-screen. These predated the iPhone by 5 or more years.

    And they had centralized app stores: PalmGear, etc. offered 20,000 apps or more for PalmOS, and I think even more for WinCE.

    The iPhone didn't even open their app store for the first year of the iPhone's life. Up until then, it was just a beautiful ipod with a phone and some builtin apps that duplicated some of what other feature phones already had.

    I do agree very strongly with the market/media/store idea. Honestly, if Apple hadn't bought iTunes and then got agreement from the labels, it would have just been another mp3 player, and not even the best.

    Apple has the music labels, and much of the publishing/magazine industry, and now an app ecosystem. Amazon has books/magazines, a huge online store, and an app store with a fairly large ecosystem. RIM owns corporate, but is quickly losing that market to Apple. Microsoft has Windows and XBox?

    I guess HP's unique advantages were its printers, the fact that it is the #1 PC vendor (until sometime next year...), and a big corporate presence. I think putting webos on pc's could have helped. The corporate presence could have helped if HP had actually made a business device - doc editing, rdp, citrix, security, video out, etc. Some of those solutions are now trickling in, about 6 months after they should have. Sigh.
    KA1
    Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism/Digital Link->Treo 650->Treo 700p->Pre->GSM Unlocked Pre 2 (wifi only)->FrankenPre + Touchpad 32 ->+ Touchpad 4G ATT + ATT Pre3 + 64 White Touchpad... bliss.
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  20. cgk
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    #280  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post

    No, the Palm OS system of app distribution and sales was nothing like the App Store. The fact that the dominant Palm OS ecosystem only survived a year or two after the App Store is a testimonial to this fact. I remember reading how an unbelievable percentage of Palm OS users never downloaded or installed a 3rd party app. I think it was something like 30%.
    I have a really vague recollection of articles about centro users who either a) never realised that you could get apps or b) were too cheap to buy apps.

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