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  1. cgk
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    #101  
    You are now sliding onto a different argument - "why or how HP has made a hash of this" - I'm specifically addressing the conspiracy theory that Microsoft were behind the death of webOS, nobody has every presented anything beyond wishful thinking and a sense of victimhood to support the idea.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    - I'm specifically addressing the conspiracy theory that Microsoft were behind the death of webOS, nobody has every presented anything beyond wishful thinking and a sense of victimhood to support the idea.
    You asked me why I was speculating and I answered my reasons.

    All of this is speculation until we get the post-mortem. Believe me I thought of writing the book on webOS-the expose--pre and post merger (no pun intended). We still don't know why Sprint did not release Palm's Pre2 and why HP would not give them the Pre3.
  3. cgk
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    #103  
    We still don't know why Sprint did not release Palm's Pre2
    Well... I guess it's the same reason that nobody in the rest of the world wanted it - it didn't sell (as in the product line rather than the pre 2 itself)?
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Well... I guess it's the same reason that nobody in the rest of the world wanted it - it didn't sell (as in the product line rather than the pre 2 itself)?
    This. Sprint put all their eggs in the Android basket (until recently), so why bother with a platform that had less than 2% of the mobile market? There's no conspiracy, webOS just wasn't selling. People wanted Android or iOS on their snazzy new touchscreen phones, especially when they were tied to it for 2 years. You can argue til you're blue in the face over the superiority of webOS (debatable), but it was not a money-maker and was never going to be.
  5. #105  
    The Touchpad debate fits in HP's way to work with it's product line?

    (if someone answers with "yes", please give me examples.

    If not, why?
  6. #106  
    I just don't understand all this noise... If webOS is dead, why my Touchpad continue working???


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
  7. #107  
    I suppose you'll understand when it's time to upgrade
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Ok we are not reading the same reports and getting different numbers about how much HP is losing on the TouchPad, which isn't uncommon for this fiasco. What I read stated that HP lost only $100 million on the 800-900,000 TouchPads they were selling at the firesale price.

    HP's $99 ultra low price the TouchPad, loss of $100 million - NewsO/Trade
    I'm getting my info from HP's own statements.

    What i'm reading and hearing is the Conference call by HP and the statements of HP CFO Cathy Lesjak. Here is the transcript Hewlett-Packard's CEO Discusses Q3 2011 Results - Earnings Call Transcript - Seeking Alpha

    "Corporate Investments, which includes webOS, recorded revenue of $266 million and an operating loss of $332 million in the quarter."

    So HP was losing $332 million per quarter on WebOS.

    "We would expect an even larger loss for webOS in Q4 if we continue to operate the business in its current form."

    Therefore continue would mean the next quarter HP would lose more then $332 million. So what your suggesting, that they do exactly what they were already doing four more times, is asking them to take 4 more quarters of a greater then $332 million loss. That's not my quarterly loss number. That's HP's saying that's what they were losing on webos. the article you site is full of statements without facts or sources. it even says "The sale may make HP loss of $100 million." "may make!" So it's not even absolute. The writer says "may." I'll take the word of HP that is accountable to the SEC and the DOJ for false statements over the writer that's offering no further explanation. The other thing is that article is on August 21. So i think it's after the $100 firesale started so it's possible that that $100 million dollars is a cost due to the lower price which did not exist when they were losing $332 mill. So you'd be talking about an extra $100 mill on top of the $332 they were losing when the touchpads where not at firesale prices. There isn't even a source for that $100 mill loss figure. i got a source: HP's own CFO.

    Lastly, Cathy finishes her discussion with a statement on what webos faced going forward stating "To make this investment a financial success would require significant investments over the next 1 to 2 years, creating risk without clear returns."

    So it's clear that they were facing two years without "clear returns." If you only have $2 bill in cash, and you're losing more then $332 million per quarter. that's over a billion per year. I don't see that as financially smart. you'd be losing a third of your yearly $6 billion in profits on webos as they say "without clear returns."

    I think it's easy to say keep going for people that love webos but have no accountability to the board or to shareholders or employees. But they'd be in really bad shape if they spent that money for two years and did just like Palm and HP were doing. Lost billions.




    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I also read that HP had $12.9 billion in cash reserves prior to the Autonomy deal. According to the reports HP spent over $10 billion of that to buy Autonomy:

    Why HP is betting the farm on Autonomy — Tech News and Analysis

    Both markets that HP are trying to penetrate have risks associated with them.
    i'm not remotely claiming buying Autonomy was smart. I don't know what a smart price was. I do know that though both have risks, Autonomy's market has higher margins. From all i've read though they've grossly over paid thus even if it was the correct decision to put resources into expanding that market they way over paid thus shooting themselves in the foot.

    Regardless my point is Microsoft had cash to float their other businesses and tons of it. HP did not. it had 2. Even before they bought autonomy 12 bill isn't a ton when you're envisioning a 2 billion outlay over two years when the current momentum was not towards profitability. The CFO made it clear they were going to take a bigger loss in the 4th quarter then they did in the 3rd. So they webos as a product was not getting more profitable it was getting less profitable.


    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I'm giving you the first links that are popping up in Google. Most of this stuff was reported on PreCentral. I will admit that anything on this must be taken with a grain of salt, but you should admit that also. I have not seen a number for the losses or a component cost posted by HP. Will you please provide a link for the entire group to digest? That will help me to understand your point. I have provide links to help you understand mine.
    hp is unlikely ever to tell their component costs. but sure i take them with a grain of salt. but i've no idea where you're getting your number. the first entry i get when i google touchpad bom is issuppli's site
    http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/New...Materials.aspx
    maybe there are discounts but nobody has shown any. i trust their site is in the ball park.


    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Yes HP is losing money. Heck, they've lost money everyday Apotheker was CEO. I and others here care about the future of webOS.
    you can't have such tunnel vision as to think that a business is going to behave on an emotional attachment to an operating system like the people on precentral will. That's not gonna happen. Webos is a tiny tiny part of HP's revenue stream. The other areas ofthe company are much much bigger and sorry much more important so it stands to reason that they aren't going to blindly risk the company out of a love for webos like people here would. HP's priorities are not the same as Precentral users who like you are really only concerned with webos. That doesn't make them right though or sound businesswise.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  9. #109  
    That's the same CFO that agreed on disecting PSG and later found it a bad idea? Just curious...

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    Newness Developments apps:

  10. #110  
    Hong Kong sold out of another product in ten minutes.

    HP/Palm never had enough of the pieces in play to be viable. HP is not Amazon and Amazon is not HP. They make a lot of money but they don't keep it.

    The sad truth is the public does not want cards/webos/synergy/touchstones etc. At the end of the day, it's just another OS with some interesting ideas. It was never a revolutionary OS. The proof of that is shown in history.

    The sooner that fact is realized, the less grinding of teeth there will be.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 11/07/2011 at 07:19 PM.
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  11.    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    Yep MSFT lucky to have HP in the mobile space. Sounds like Bradley 100% committed to them. Perhaps part of the deal was to say HP would not make any tablets from any other operating systems or just not make any from webOS and in return, he gets a lower licensing fee or some other goodies from MSFT to help him make up for his razor thin margins.

    But with the increasing consumerization of IT as the buzzphrase goes, will the deal with MSFT prove to be short sighted? Will it be enough?
    I think HP's short sighted move was when they bought Palm and went all in with webOS. They bailed on MSFT right before MSFT started to get mobile right. Basically, HP has made every wrong decision in the mobile space the past 2 years. Getting back with MSFT is their best bet for their enterprise installed base IMO.
  12. #112  
    Remember when Mark Hurd was quoted as saying "making smartphones is easy?" I sort of get the impression HP really bought into their own hype ("size and scale!") and didn't actually consider how much work goes into making a mobile platform that consumers actually want to buy. It almost seems like they just figured "well, webOS is almost as good as iOS, so that means our products will be almost as good as iPhones and iPads and people will buy them."
    cgk likes this.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post

    HP/Palm never had enough of the pieces in play to be viable.
    Best Buy had 250,000 Touchpads they were returning because sales were not there.

    For one chain, that's a big outlay.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Remember when Mark Hurd was quoted as saying "making smartphones is easy?" I sort of get the impression HP really bought into their own hype ("size and scale!") and didn't actually consider how much work goes into making a mobile platform that consumers actually want to buy. It almost seems like they just figured "well, webOS is almost as good as iOS, so that means our products will be almost as good as iPhones and iPads and people will buy them."
    i honestly think they were reading precentral.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
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  15. bxborn31's Avatar
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by passlogix View Post
    Customer already decided not to buy webOS device. They failed on Veer and TouchPad. Windows product, they know it will sell.
    Exactly. They gave people the choice to buy a touchpad and nobody wanted it.

    Sent from my Samsung galaxy S2 using Tapatalk
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Best Buy had 250,000 Touchpads they were returning because sales were not there.

    For one chain, that's a big outlay.
    This is one dimensional thinking. Having product in the chain is one piece of the puzzle.

    What is missing has been covered numerous times on these boards so a rehash is not required. If you're not familiar with the pitfalls of Palm, HP and webos, suggest you get caught up.
    bluenote likes this.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    This is one dimensional thinking. Having product in the chain is one piece of the puzzle.

    What is missing has been covered numerous times on these boards so a rehash is not required. If you're not familiar with the pitfalls of Palm, HP and webos, suggest you get caught up.
    Taking a product to market that doesn't sell is a pretty complete puzzle.

    There are people who loved the Pontiac Aztec.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by bxborn31 View Post
    Exactly. They gave people the choice to buy a touchpad and nobody wanted it.

    Sent from my Samsung galaxy S2 using Tapatalk
    To complete the picture, the market also rejected the opportunity to buy Pre, Pre Plus, Pre 2, Pixi, and Pixi Plus.

    At what point does it finally become apparent that the product is the problem?
    sinsin07 likes this.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Taking a product to market that doesn't sell is a pretty complete puzzle.
    A puzzle has many parts. It's the lack of those parts that led to "No Sale" signs at just about every point of sale with the launch price.

    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    There are people who loved the Pontiac Aztec.
    Yes we know. These are the people who brought a launch day Touchpad at iPad prices.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 11/09/2011 at 03:35 PM.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    To complete the picture, the market also rejected the opportunity to buy Pre, Pre Plus, Pre 2, Pixi, and Pixi Plus.

    At what point does it finally become apparent that the product is the problem?
    Most likely never. There is always a reason why it failed, but it's never the products fault.

    Blame it on the sunshine, blame on the moonlight, but never on the boggie.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 11/08/2011 at 04:15 PM.
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