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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by passlogix View Post
    Customer already decided not to buy webOS device. They failed on Veer and TouchPad. Windows product, they know it will sell.
    I couldn't disagree more. Windows mobile products have not been selling any better. In fact, WebOS tablets sold much better than anything MS has put out tablet-wise to date. However, Windows 8, which is allegedly optimized for tablet use, might change all that. Then again, that is what was said about WebOS.
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  2. gbp
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by passlogix View Post
    This is not an old habits! HP's main product is MS windows PC! This is their main product. So eventually they will make windows 8 tablet. What is wrong with that? Do you really think HP can survive without selling any MS windows product? If they decide to drop MS, I'll bet their stock will drop more than 50% this time around.
    You have a point.
    However they do not need to drop MS. Look at Dell and Lenovo, Acer and Asus. They all make Microsoft products and hold significant market share. Yet they partner with Android. The point is HP is timid to take up on the task of making webOS products. I love webOS, I want HP to continue, however HP sticking with Microsoft can be dangerous.If anything they should think about making Android tablets too if Win 8 fails.
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  3. gbp
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    yes android was 2 mil in 2010, a drop in the bucket.
    Yup,
    in 2011 they sold something like 20 plus million.

    I see problem with folks who want HP to sell like Apple. I have no issues with that, but can they do it quick ? , nope nada, na. Apple always had early mover advantage with iPod, iPhone and iPad.

    OTOH, 2 million is not a small number. If HP can come out with an improvised TP2 and sell it for $350.00, they can make 30 dollars profit per piece. At least they make some money or break even.
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  4. gbp
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by rexalbel View Post
    honestly why make this so hard. Be the first to introduce a mutli-boot tablet... Include it with webos, android and windows 8.. It gives the ultimate flexibility and doesnt sound hard. We already have gotten android on a toucpad.. Dont see why windows 8 couldn't join. Hell we have a psp with a 2.0 GHz quad processor, so im pretty sure tablets will shortly become very powerful and having choice gives them a 1 up against other competitors.
    Sounds good, but few small issues like no of buttons, screen resolutions, sd card slots can be tricky to configure on a All-in-One tablet :-)
  5. cgk
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    #45  
    E
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Yup,
    in 2011 they sold something like 20 plus million.

    I see problem with folks who want HP to sell like Apple. I have no issues with that, but can they do it quick ? , nope nada, na. Apple always had early mover advantage with iPod, iPhone and iPad.

    OTOH, 2 million is not a small number. If HP can come out with an improvised TP2 and sell it for $350.00, they can make 30 dollars profit per piece. At least they make some money or break even.
    To put that in context, since it's first release, the highest number of global webOS users was estimated to be three million - in a similar period HTC sold four million android phones in the uk alone and samsung sold ten million galaxy S phones.

    I think this generation of OSes has solidified and the next big battle is now a few years off when the next generation arrives.


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  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post

    google it, I believe I saw the teaser for the full report and it was on gartners website but can't be sure. Gartner published after the second run so their numbers might be accurate. It could be hp upped the run when they saw the demand to either get larger installed base to sell webos and also make suppliers happy or to have bestbuy goose up hp pc sales thru the bundle. The latter stinks to me--its like saying you're ugly and I wouldn't date you but please lend me some money.
    link or it didn't happen. I'm not googling it. i didn't make the claim you did. You should be googling to support your own claim. I'm not doing your work. link or it didn't happen.

    regardless you've got a problem when even a precentral there's nobody want's to buy your device for full price. People say it's such a great device. But it's offered now for full price at Best Buy and people won't buy it. Not even the webos enthusiasts here on Precentral. They'll all only get it if it's at a discount. That tells you a ton. They can only sell touchpads if they take a bath on them. And that's not a viable business plan. It's not an Xbox. Nobody is buying 2 $60 games and a $50 xbox live account and second $30 controller to offset the loss your taking.
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 11/03/2011 at 01:52 PM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    link or it didn't happen. I'm not googling it. i didn't make the claim you did. You should be googling to support your own claim. I'm not doing your work. link or it didn't happen.

    regardless you've got a problem when even a precentral there's nobody want's to buy your device for full price. People say it's such a great device. But it's offered now for full price at Best Buy and people won't buy it. Not even the webos enthusiasts here on Precentral. They'll all only get it if it's at a discount. That tells you a ton. They can only sell touchpads if they take a bath on them. And that's not a viable business plan. It's not an Xbox. Nobody is buying 2 $60 games and a $50 xbox live account and second $30 controller to offset the loss your taking.
    Just read the thread for your answer.
    "Full price"--it was priced incorrectly. Amazon and others understood the market much better than HP.
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  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by passlogix View Post
    Customer already decided not to buy webOS device. They failed on Veer and TouchPad. Windows product, they know it will sell.
    Customers decided a long time ago not to buy Windows Tablets. It's funny how HP killed the Slate, bought Palm, made a webOS tablet that people who use it actually love (became the #1 best rated tablet on Amazon and became the #2 best selling tablet with the help of the firesale), complained about making low margin Windows PCs the lost their marbles and decided to ditch their hardware folks (PC and tablet), lost more money with that stupid decision then they would have spent to build a user and development base, brought back the low margin PC business, and now want to make low margin Windows tablets when they have a better customer base with their webOS tablets then they will have with their Windows ones. They are completely bonkers! Who is going to pay $700 for a Windows tablet when an iPad2 cost $100 less? They aren't worth that much because they have Windows on them. HP should've just stuck to webOS if this is the route they chose. Talk about stupid!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    l

    regardless you've got a problem when even a precentral there's nobody want's to buy your device for full price. People say it's such a great device. But it's offered now for full price at Best Buy and people won't buy it. Not even the webos enthusiasts here on Precentral. They'll all only get it if it's at a discount. That tells you a ton. They can only sell touchpads if they take a bath on them. And that's not a viable business plan. It's not an Xbox. Nobody is buying 2 $60 games and a $50 xbox live account and second $30 controller to offset the loss your taking.
    I don't have a dog in this fight... however, a few things to keep in mind:

    1) Take a poll here, most of us would rather have had a new phone. Tablets are cool but I don't NEED one and wouldn't buy a top of the line iPad even if it were offered for $400.00. I know the same is true for many Android fans. It is why they were so eager to get a Touchpad (originally said by many of them to be 'crappy' hardware) with the hope of ultimately getting a $99 Android tab.

    2) Does anybody buy something at full price once there is a known discount path? The one constant in all of mobile tech is "Can I get an app that does that for free?" Do you really think just because one is a fan of a product they should overpay? There is a name for those types of people, (and it ends with boy) but we are not allowed to use it here . Perhaps there are not as many here as some would claim.

    This is why the criticism of the pricing was unfounded. Price it high and drop it, and people perceive value. Price it low from the start and they do not. The price drop should have been part of the plan. Seems like HP believed their own hype and thought their device was an iPad equal. Or they were just hoping for easy money. (Stupid either way)

    3) Google has been taking a bath on the Android OS for years. It's only a matter of where in the disto chain one chooses to take a bath. And if HP didn't panic, it clear they cold have sold them for more than $99 dollars (see E-bay and Amazon). If HP didn't think they would have to suck it up in the short term, they were crazy (and 60 days of a product is VERY short, if you want to be a player)

    4) If a company that aspires to be a leader in the cloud and service industries can't come up with a way to monetize a device like the Touchpad, which would be heavily cloud dependent, well...
    I guess that explains why HP is in the mess they are in. No vision, no leadership, no passion. Those are very commonly held opinions about HP by many analysts and other industry insiders, so there is basis for the opinion.

    C
    Last edited by C-Note; 11/03/2011 at 06:38 PM. Reason: typos
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    Just read the thread for your answer.
    "Full price"--it was priced incorrectly. Amazon and others understood the market much better than HP.
    bah. you made a claim and can't back it up. You say they sold 2 mill. But you can't prove it and you want me to do your googling. Nope. You could be right but when you can't support your claim it looks like you're doing what tons of people on Precentral have always done, make up facts and figures.

    Here's my googling. Here is how you support a claim. You give quotes and provide links to it.

    "According to analyst Shaw Wu of Sterne Agee in San Francisco, HP’s initial order from its Taiwanese contract manufacturer, Compal, was for between 500,000 and one million units."
    How Much Did HP Lose on the TouchPad? Here's a Good Guess. - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD

    " HP’s plan is for the second wave of Touchpads to land in late October (and you thought it was outdated when it launched in July), with somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 units" http://www.precentral.net/digitimes-...er-inventories

    Thus total sales somewhere between 600,000 and 1.2 million units

    2 million units? Maybe but you've offered no proof. And even so 2 mill isn't substantial. Especially when a huge amount only bought it because it was ridiculously cheap and others to put Android on it. in the real world there has to be a way to make a profit off a product if you're going to mass produce it. And at $99 and $149 touchpads aren't a viable product because they are not profitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    "Full price"--it was priced incorrectly. Amazon and others understood the market much better than HP.
    If you're comparing the kindle fire to touchpad come on. Kindle has way cheaper components like smaller screen and less memory and less storage. And Kindle's purpose is not to beat out every tablet but to keep Amazon from being obselete as book purchasing goes from physical to digital. It keeps them in the game. They are selling a color ebook reader. if touchpad wanted to gut it's device and cut out the expensive components like storage and memory and and the touch screen they can sell it for less. Not only that Amazon fire is a device meant to deliver amazon content, music, etc. Hp has no such eco system. Hell HP is selling Amazon mp3 and kindle books. What Amazon knows is how to sell amazon products. HP doesn't have any products to sell. To equate the two only shows a lack of understanding of the two products or the markets the two companies are competing in.

    "priced incorrectly." That only proves that people were 100% correct to not buy it. It was not worth it. but it's nothing but fantasy to think any company that's already having declining profits is gonna sell devices at a loss when they have no way to recoupe those costs. What's the correct price? $200? $99? Fantasy. Nobody in HP's spot is gonna take a loss on these. HP is not gonna recoup that. The only way to sell the device is for a profit or you don't sell it.

    If it was a good idea to just sell these at a loss you'd have companies kicking down HP's door trying to buy webos. They aren't because they know that's stupid from a business perspective.
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 11/03/2011 at 04:02 PM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
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  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    bah. you made a claim and can't back it up. You say they sold 2 mill. But you can't prove it and you want me to do your googling. Nope. You could be right but when you can't support your claim it looks like you're doing what tons of people on Precentral have always done, make up facts and figures.

    Here's my googling. Here is how you support a claim. You give quotes and provide links to it.

    "According to analyst Shaw Wu of Sterne Agee in San Francisco, HPs initial order from its Taiwanese contract manufacturer, Compal, was for between 500,000 and one million units."
    I'll say it again: Read the thread.
  12. #52  
    link or it didn't happen. I'm not googling it. i didn't make the claim you did. You should be googling to support your own claim. I'm not doing your work. link or it didn't happen.

    regardless you've got a problem when even a precentral there's nobody want's to buy your device for full price. People say it's such a great device. But it's offered now for full price at Best Buy and people won't buy it. Not even the webos enthusiasts here on Precentral. They'll all only get it if it's at a discount. That tells you a ton. They can only sell touchpads if they take a bath on them. And that's not a viable business plan. It's not an Xbox. Nobody is buying 2 $60 games and a $50 xbox live account and second $30 controller to offset the loss your taking.
    I bought my TouchPad at full price and was saving up to buy another one. The firesale discount helped me get another one faster. People complain about the price of everything. How many folks in this very forum complain about the lack of apps on webOS yet refuse to pay for them when we do get them? Rationality is thrown out the window when you start talking money in the tech world. Your Xbox analogy doesn't hold water because when Nintendo and Sony started offering their consoles at a discounted price a long time ago people just like you said that business plan wouldn't work either. HP controls the entire hardware and software distribution channel for the TouchPad. They make money on everything. You honestly don't think it actually cost $50-70 to produce the TouchStone or $30 to produce the case. How many of us have at least one of those items? Oh, and by the way I have well over $100 in apps and $30 in music that I bought just on my TouchPad alone.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
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  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I bought my TouchPad at full price and was saving up to buy another one... Oh, and by the way I have well over $100 in apps and $30 in music that I bought just on my TouchPad alone.
    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    Nice post. And I think they would have done better (and would still) if they had lined up some content providers--similar to the deals Apple, Amazon and others are moving to do. It is hard but they are the largest pc maker in the world.
  14. #54  
    Nice post. And I think they would have done better (and would still) if they had lined up some content providers--similar to the deals Apple, Amazon and others are moving to do. It is hard but they are the largest pc maker in the world.
    I couldn't agree with you more! The money in the mobile business is definitely not in the hardware, which I thought HP understood. It is in software and services. If HP continued to make the TouchPad it stood to make more money in the long run for HP than the Galaxy Tab does for Samsung because Samsung can only make money off the hardware, Google makes make off the software. The same will happen with the Slate 2 (if it sales at all, which isn't looking good at the price they are asking). HP will only make money if the hardware sale (and a service pack if it is sold to businesses). Microsoft will make money off of the software (if they leave the app store in place) and some of the content.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  15. #55  
    @SnotBoogie

    Either you aren't making any sense or I'm not understanding your post. So Amazon can sell their tablets at a lost (which they still do even with the low specs) and still make money off the content and services yet HP can't do the same thing? Even with the much larger screen we are talking about less than $100 between the cost of the two. Why can't HP sale the TouchPad at a $50-70 loss per unit and recoup the cost the same way Amazon is doing? The TouchPad already has a Kindle books app, movie store, music store, magazine store (Zinio, yeah!), and app store. The only thing HP lacks that Amazon has is a store front for other hardware purchases, which BTW Amazon doesn't need to make their own tablet for. Their website works just fine on the TouchPad, iPad, and Android Tablets so they are actually losing money making a tablet just for those sales. Amazon also loses $75 per tablet by offering a free 1 year Amazon Prime account with each tablet.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  16. cgk
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    @SnotBoogie

    Either you aren't making any sense or I'm not understanding your post. So Amazon can sell their tablets at a lost (which they still do even with the low specs) and still make money off the content and services yet HP can't do the same thing? Even with the much larger screen we are talking about less than $100 between the cost of the two. Why can't HP sale the TouchPad at a $50-70 loss per unit and recoup the cost the same way Amazon is doing? The TouchPad already has a Kindle books app, movie store, music store, magazine store (Zinio, yeah!), and app store. The only thing HP lacks that Amazon has is a store front for other hardware purchases, which BTW Amazon doesn't need to make their own tablet for. Their website works just fine on the TouchPad, iPad, and Android Tablets so they are actually losing money making a tablet just for those sales. Amazon also loses $75 per tablet by offering a free 1 year Amazon Prime account with each tablet.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    You analysis is so wrong headed it is hard to know to where to start - let's start with an easy one - how much revenue do you think HP makes from every book sold via the kindle application?

    Sent from my Blade using Tapatalk
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Either you aren't making any sense or I'm not understanding your post. So Amazon can sell their tablets at a lost (which they still do even with the low specs) and still make money off the content and services yet HP can't do the same thing?
    Theoretically HP could of course do the same thing. And HP Play no doubt was supposed to get them into that direction.

    *But* it's still a totally different situation.
    Amazon is a big virtual mall. It's not hard for me to find a month where I spent more on buying stuff from Amazon than all the apps combined I bought in over 2 years for my smartphones. There's just a lot more money coming in from an average Amazon customer compared to a smartphone/tablet user buying apps.


    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Even with the much larger screen we are talking about less than $100 between the cost of the two. Why can't HP sale the TouchPad at a $50-70 loss per unit and recoup the cost the same way Amazon is doing?
    HP gets 30% of the price of an app. To recoup a $50 loss they must sell roughly $150 worth of apps. How much did you pay for apps last year?
    And that's just to recover the loss. They want to make a profit too.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The TouchPad already has a Kindle books app, movie store, music store, magazine store (Zinio, yeah!), and app store. The only thing HP lacks that Amazon has is a store front for other hardware purchases, which BTW Amazon doesn't need to make their own tablet for.
    Amazon doesn't need to sell their own tablets. But it helps their business. And as their main business is selling other stuff they don't need to make money from the tablets. To Amazon the tablets are just a store front, a media consumption device - *and* a defensive/preventative move.
    HP has to make money from selling the tablet itself. Apps would be a nice addition - but at often just 99 cents and usually $5 or less and HP getting 30% of that the apps would not have been a great source of income.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Their website works just fine on the TouchPad, iPad, and Android Tablets so they are actually losing money making a tablet just for those sales. Amazon also loses $75 per tablet by offering a free 1 year Amazon Prime account with each tablet.
    Amazon doesn't "lose" $75. It costs them less than what you pay. Plus this a classic marketing move. There'll be a lot more Prime customer after the first year.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
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  18. #58  
    I have a sinking feeling someone is going to ask "well, why doesn't HP just use their size and scale to sell books, movies, and music directly?"
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  19. cgk
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I have a sinking feeling someone is going to ask "well, why doesn't HP just use their size and scale to sell books, movies, and music directly?"
    Don't forget the dog food, toilet rolls and kids toys.

    Sent from my Blade using Tapatalk
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  20. #60  
    @tholap

    HP sold more than just apps with the TouchPad. As I posted before they sold the case, the TouchStone, and the keyboard for a high profit. I don't think either one of them cost more than $10 to manufacture. I have two TouchStone, two cases, and a keyboard. I'm about to order a case for my mom's TouchPad now (on Amazon, btw). My mom wants a TouchStone also. A lot of folks buy these items. If they made a car dock for it (with built in TouchStone charger) I probably would have bought that, too. There is a lot of hidden profit in accessories and apps are the gift that keeps on giving. Plus who says they have to continue selling webOS devices at a discounted price? Make a lighter, thinner TouchPad 2 with a slight spec bump and sell it at cost (which is what they do with Windows PCs anyway).

    Unless someone blocks Amazon's website on their hardware, (which I don't think anyone is crazy enough to do) what strategic move is Amazon making by selling their own tablet? Who on this planet has not heard of Amazon or don't know how to get to Amazon.com in their web browser? If they did this to sell Prime subscriptions, they could have simply made a Prime app for tablets. NetFlix doesn't have their own tablet and they are doing pretty darn well in the tablet space (despite losing close to a million subscribers for stupid pricing moves). Prime is a year long subscription at $75 a pop. They are losing the face value for Prime by offering it for free for the whole year and it doesn't have nearly as much stuff as NetFlix. Other services offer free stuff for a limited time to draw in customers, not a whole year. BTW, are they going to prevent a NetFlix app from being added to the Kindle Fire?

    Now, back to Windows 8. How does Windows 8 make HP any money? They will have to pay for the OS (even if it is at a discounted price). They won't get anything for the apps or content downloaded to the hardware. Microsoft will get all that. Plus they have to compete with everyone else who will be making Windows 8 tablets, driving down any profit they hope to make off the hardware. They can't even get an exclusive on the services because any company can offer services for Windows products. All this makes Windows 8 a lower margin market than with webOS.
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