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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post

    And here is reality check and i'll be blunt so as there is no misunderstanding. I have NO loyalty to any company phone or set of developers. Not HP, Palm, Apple, Microsoft, Google, not the Samsung flip i had before, not the Sanyo i had before that, not to my old jeep or my old honda, or my Playstation 1, or my xbox 360 or whatever. And surely not developers. No offense to them. They do good work and contribute lots but I don't know these people. These developers. We aren't buddies and i don't owe them anything. If they are Palm people they got paid to work. If they are not palm people then they are choosing to do work without pay or to get paid by selling an app and that's their choice. It's not my obligation. If I buy an app i paid for it. I don't owe them squat except to pay if they are charging. They don't put food on my table. They don't pay my medical bills. When i my leg broken in 2 places and my knee destroyed they weren't in rehab with me learning to walk normally. They weren't around when my family members died of cancer or got shot. Loyalty? Get out of here. Loyalty is for your family. It's earned. You want to give them extra cash? You feel a duty to them? That's on you. That's a personal choice. I can respect that. I understand. But i'm on a Pre minus. Have been for a while. I got left behind long ago. I haven't added a new app in almost 20 months. I think the last app i added was facebook or maybe Twee. Those developers haven't updated my phone with anything i was looking for in years. And i've had problems with Webos in general as long as i've had this phone and Palm's internal developers haven't fixed many of those things. Loyalty? you get zero from me. I'm loyal to my friends. I'm loyal to my family. WebOS may be some sort of idealistic crusade for you that you need to keep going. That's your choice. But to me it's just a phone.
    Everyone is different, but I can tell you with that attitude if you ran a business you wouldn't last very long. It is very obvious you don't look long term. Generating customer and parternership loyalty and appreciation is paramount to any successful business. It is a two way street. What is funny is that the examples you give why you are not loyal are because to you believe they were not loyal to you!

    It isn't a crusade for me. My first WebOS device is an HP Tablet. However as a developer in a former career, now I just tinker, I do have that perspective to draw from. I have the experience of working months or even years on a project/environment just to see it killed off from under me and also the experience of having to do so to others for projects under me. I've also seen first hand how hard and long grudges last and how it affects decision many years later. Just a example is a company I worked for dealings with Sun. They screwed our CIO over when he was at another company on a project. When he came to work for our company he did everything he could to get Sun out of our company, and it worked. Sun (now part of Oracle) has lost tens of millions of dollars of business from us.

    These developers partnered with HP trying to make WebOS work, and of course trying to make money. It didn't work out. But if HP ever wants to work with these partners again on any other project it would go a long way to do the "right" thing now even if it does cost them in the short term.

    I truly appreciate many of the great things WebOS has, even though I believe 3.x was half baked, and would hate to see it just die off.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by samab View Post

    Why don't you go to haiku and look at their progress of recreating BeOS 10 years later? They just got wifi encryption a couple of weeks ago.
    I was quite fond of BeOS and looked at it myself to consider developing for. I was actually disappointed at the time that Apple chose NeXT rather than BeOS as the foundation for what became Mac OS X. Although I think Apple now made the right choice

    The problem/fate with BeOS is they took way too long to decide what to do with it and already had lost momentum. It is what I mentioned about earlier that the longer HP waits to open source WebOS the smaller the impact would be.
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by azentropy View Post
    I was quite fond of BeOS and looked at it myself to consider developing for. I was actually disappointed at the time that Apple chose NeXT rather than BeOS as the foundation for what became Mac OS X. Although I think Apple now made the right choice

    The problem/fate with BeOS is they took way too long to decide what to do with it and already had lost momentum. It is what I mentioned about earlier that the longer HP waits to open source WebOS the smaller the impact would be.
    There was never that much momentum to begin with.

    And the most important thing was that BeOS only looked good because it was compared to windows 95 with a kernel dating back to windows 3.1. It was never compared to Windows NT (or in the last 2 years of Be Inc., not compared to windows 2000 and windows xp).

    Webos ranks last in html5 test scores and is twice as slow as other browser.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by azentropy View Post
    Your analogies are way off. It would be more like saying the right thing for Coke to do is give away Coke that it planned on dumping out anyway. Or saying the right thing for a restaurant to do is give away left over food rather than putting it in the trash.

    Again, you are missing the point. If HP can not sell of WebOS, then the "right" thing to do to opensource WebOS rather than just let it die and shut it down completely.
    There was a thread here right after WebOS died and it was official that touchpads hadn't sold well and Best Buy was sending tons back that ask "are webos users just dellusional?" Yeah. You're delusional if you think anyone is going to give away an asset they paid over 1 billion dollar. They may license it for a fee, they may allow someone to build onto it for a fee, but they aren't going to give it way as free open source. That's kind of thinking is just not the real world. And it's not remotely "right." HP owns it.

    Quote Originally Posted by azentropy View Post
    Everyone is different, but I can tell you with that attitude if you ran a business you wouldn't last very long. It is very obvious you don't look long term. Generating customer and parternership loyalty and appreciation is paramount to any successful business. It is a two way street. What is funny is that the examples you give why you are not loyal are because to you believe they were not loyal to you!

    It isn't a crusade for me. My first WebOS device is an HP Tablet. However as a developer in a former career, now I just tinker, I do have that perspective to draw from. I have the experience of working months or even years on a project/environment just to see it killed off from under me and also the experience of having to do so to others for projects under me. I've also seen first hand how hard and long grudges last and how it affects decision many years later. Just a example is a company I worked for dealings with Sun. They screwed our CIO over when he was at another company on a project. When he came to work for our company he did everything he could to get Sun out of our company, and it worked. Sun (now part of Oracle) has lost tens of millions of dollars of business from us.

    These developers partnered with HP trying to make WebOS work, and of course trying to make money. It didn't work out. But if HP ever wants to work with these partners again on any other project it would go a long way to do the "right" thing now even if it does cost them in the short term.

    I truly appreciate many of the great things WebOS has, even though I believe 3.x was half baked, and would hate to see it just die off.
    it's just a phone. if it lives or dies its not a big deal to me. HP makes it's money in place other then small time app developers so i don't think they care that much or should care. And they make tons of servers. I'm sure if Amazon wants to buy tons of servers they aren't gonna care that they made a kindle app on a dead platform as long as the price of the servers is right. HP will be nice to partners it needs. But It doesn't help HP to give away a billion dollar asset.

    As for developers that worked for HP. They got paid. I don't owe them a thing. You're O.S. got dumped? That means the market didn't want it. People need to deal with it. You worked months and had something killed? That's business. It happens in every business i know of; consumer products, pharma, automotive, movies, music, TV. People work months and years on tv and film and a picture never get's funded, or get's funded and killed, or even gets made and never gets a theatrical release for various reasons. People write, rewrite scripts etc. Stuff get's killed. It's not the consumer's job to prop up these people if the market doesn't want what they provide. Products get killed all the time. Someone worked on that Kin. it got killed. Someone worked a long time on HD-DVD and the standard and devices got killed. Someone built buicks and Pontiac motor cars. They aren't getting made anymore. Guess what? someone did all the work on New Coke and it failed. I'm a consumer. I don't care that some guy spent all that time making New Coke. It didn't taste good. I'm not gonna help them survive. I'm not helping the Kin keep going. QNX tablets aren't selling great. You think Blackberry is gonna open source it? no way. It's not their property. They didn't buy it. They have zero right to it. They have no claim to it. If someone wants to open source webos they should take 1.2 billion dollars of their own money, buy webos, then give away as opens source. But the idea that HP should do it, that it's "right" for HP to do that only makes sense in an unrealistic world that ignores the most fundamental reason the business of HP exists: to make a profit.
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 10/27/2011 at 03:07 PM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  5. cgk
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    #125  
    So in our next twist, HP are keeping the PSG but are they keeping WebOS?
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    There was a thread here right after WebOS died and it was official that touchpads hadn't sold well and Best Buy was sending tons back that ask "are webos users just dellusional?" Yeah. You're delusional if you think anyone is going to give away an asset they paid over 1 billion dollar. They may license it for a fee but they aren't going to give it way as free open source. That's kind of thinking is just not the real world. And it's not remotely "right." HP owns it.
    Commercial software projects become open sourced all the time. How do you think Firefox came to be? Redhat has a history of purchasing other products and then releasing them as open source (see 389 directory, DogTag PKI etc also formerly part of Netscape) Google has done similar. Sun open sourced Java (sorta), Openoffice.org and mySQL (parts - btw they purchased mySQL for $1 billion). Even Apple open sourced some of it's quicktime products, contributes to WebKit etc. HP has been a huge sponsor of various open source projects both monetarily and with resources - see OpenLDAP. So to act like it never happens is ignorant.

    HP can do with it what they want, and will. You can make the argument that if they can't license it out that just locking it up and throwing away the key might be the right business move. But it isn't their only option . The $1.2B is gone wether they lock it up or open source it. So maybe open sourcing it and creating some positive PRPRPR $would$ $be$ $better$ $for$ $them$ $in$ $the$ $long$ $run$.
  7. #127  
    Worst thread ever!
    rsanchez1 likes this.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    Worst thread ever!
    Indeed!
  9. samab's Avatar
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    #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by azentropy View Post
    Commercial software projects become open sourced all the time. How do you think Firefox came to be? Redhat has a history of purchasing other products and then releasing them as open source (see 389 directory, DogTag PKI etc also formerly part of Netscape) Google has done similar. Sun open sourced Java (sorta), Openoffice.org and mySQL (parts - btw they purchased mySQL for $1 billion). Even Apple open sourced some of it's quicktime products, contributes to WebKit etc. HP has been a huge sponsor of various open source projects both monetarily and with resources - see OpenLDAP. So to act like it never happens is ignorant.

    HP can do with it what they want, and will. You can make the argument that if they can't license it out that just locking it up and throwing away the key might be the right business move. But it isn't their only option . The $1.2B is gone wether they lock it up or open source it. So maybe open sourcing it and creating some positive PRPRPR $would$ $be$ $better$ $for$ $them$ $in$ $the$ $long$ $run$.
    All those projects you listed --- are massively supported by their corporate parent.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    So in our next twist, HP are keeping the PSG but are they keeping WebOS?
    According to Meg today, we should know in the next couple of months.
  11. #131  
    You may know sooner:

    HP to hold on to PC division – but sources say it will finally kill webOS
    Internal review decides not to spin off world's largest PC maker, but operating system developed for short-lived TouchPad to be closed along with 500 jobs
    Charles Arthur
    guardian.co.uk, Friday 28 October 2011 02.18 EDT

    Relevant passage:

    No such statement has been made about the webOS group - but top-level staff have been leaving it and the Guardian understands from internal HP sources that staff within the group expect imminent closure. "There's a 95% chance we all get laid off between now and November, and I for one am thinking it's for the best," one webOS employee told the Guardian. That would affect more than 500 jobs.

    HP has already suffered losses from the top of the webOS division, with Richard Kerris, who resigned earlier this week as HP's vice-president of webOS worldwide developer relations, moving over to mobile phone company Nokia to do essentially the same job.

    Despite HP's attempts to find a potential buyer or licencee for webOS - which ran on the short-lived TouchPad - there has been no apparent interest outside the company. Sir Howard Stringer, chief executive of Sony, told the Guardian on Thursday that he had no immediate interest in buying or licensing it after completing the acquisition of the rest of the Sony Ericsson business. And early suggestions that HTC might purchase it have also fallen away.

    Some have suggested that Amazon might buy webOS, seeing the presence on the Amazon board of ex-Palm chief executive and HP executive Jon Rubinstein, who previously worked for Apple. But there is no indication that Amazon is interested in acquiring another operating system; it is using its own version of Google's Android software for its new Kindle Fire device.

    ---

    The Guardian's basically corroborated the rumor on webOSRoundup from a week or so ago and dumped a lot of water on the idea that Sony or Amazon are interested. One hopes this isn't true and HP continues on with webOS, but...

    What it realistically sounds like, if this is true, is that HP said it's have a decision on webOS within two months--not that it'd keep it staffed. That lends itself to HP either keeping webOS for its intellectual property and patents, or selling what it doesn't want of webOS without having to transition the workforce behind it at substantial cost to the purchasing company.
    Last edited by vanadium; 10/28/2011 at 02:20 AM.
  12. #132  
    newspapers only report on the past.
    don't under estimate jon's vision. We heard on the call today that meg is looking to him for leadership. My guess is the rest of hp does not know what to do with webos now that bradley has chosen the safe msft with its security features for enterprise.
    jon will have to innovate webos to the next generation or die, that
    is why jaaksi,s team is working deeply on the os. To create something new again. Jon had a vision, ldts see what he comes up with. In the meantime, as whitby says, my touchpad and pre still work as before.

    also: the Guardian doesn't like webOS, look at its past reporting.
    Bloomberg was actually granted an interview with Meg and she is apparently floating the idea that webOS "may" come back.
    "...and Hewlett-Packard may come back to market with a tablet running its own WebOS software, she said."
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ware-push.html
    Last edited by bluenote; 10/28/2011 at 04:55 AM.
  13. cgk
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    #133  
    We heard on the call today that meg is looking to him for leadership.
    Where? I've just transcripted the bit of the call around WebOS and he's mentioned once by Bradley and nobody mentions Leadership - Meg doesn't mention him at all. I'll listen to it again but is this later?
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by vanadium View Post
    The Guardian's basically corroborated the rumor on webOSRoundup from a week or so ago and dumped a lot of water on the idea that Sony or Amazon are interested. One hopes this isn't true and HP continues on with webOS, but...

    What it realistically sounds like, if this is true, is that HP said it's have a decision on webOS within two months--not that it'd keep it staffed. That lends itself to HP either keeping webOS for its intellectual property and patents, or selling what it doesn't want of webOS without having to transition the workforce behind it at substantial cost to the purchasing company.
    This will REALLY suck if it's true. They should really give us some closure instead of leading us on. We'll see hundreds of employees leaving, and they'll still say "we'll make a decision in the coming months".
  15. cgk
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    #135  
    Charles Arthur is a pretty solid journalist rather than one of the fly-by-night types who most of the tech sites hire - also he was the guy who asked the Sony chairman if he'd buy WebOS (leading to the 'never say never' half quote that lots of the tech sites ran with instead of the actual quote 'never say never, but we're not thinking about it at the moment.').
  16. #136  
    And this journalist is obviously well informed about who is who in webOS nightmare, so this article looks legit to me.
  17. #137  
    AllthingsD (WSJ) still reporting webOS fate undecided, in a call they had with Whitman after the conference call.

    My guess is they have given jon a few months to make his case to save it.

    Interview: HP CEO Meg Whitman on Keeping the PC Business - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD
    "Still outstanding, and apparently undecided, is the fate of the webOS business. HP killed the hardware aspect of that business following ridiculously poor sales of its TouchPad tablet. Since then, the message has been on again, off again as HP has variously cut the prices on its existing inventory of TouchPads, then committed to making a few more, as consumers swooped in to buy them at a discount. There were no decisions about that today."
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    AllthingsD (WSJ) still reporting webOS fate undecided, in a call they had with Whitman after the conference call.

    My guess is they have given jon a few months to make his case to save it.

    Interview: HP CEO Meg Whitman on Keeping the PC Business - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD
    "Still outstanding, and apparently undecided, is the fate of the webOS business. HP killed the hardware aspect of that business following ridiculously poor sales of its TouchPad tablet. Since then, the message has been on again, off again as HP has variously cut the prices on its existing inventory of TouchPads, then committed to making a few more, as consumers swooped in to buy them at a discount. There were no decisions about that today."
    If that is the case, then we should try to help him. I want so bad for webOS to make it out of this.
  19.    #139  
    HP May Shut Down WebOS Division

    someone needs to merge the 3 threads on this now.
  20. #140  
    This news is still "unofficial" until Ms. Whitman says so in a few months. HP is not going to make a decision on webOS until on or after their Q3 business call on Nov. 21. Peace, and keep the Faith everyone, please.
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