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  1.    #1  
    Hi all,

    Let's file this under "this could get ugly"....according to the following article...HP will have report on it's quarterly results on Nov Nov. 21...

    October 17, 2011
    How Chips, PCs, Services Companies Are FaringBy THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    A look at how selected companies providing computers, components, services and related software are faring:

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011...gewanted=print
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  2. #2  
    HP PC market share grew amid spinoff talk - Dallas Business Journal
    Despite talk that it might spin off its personal computer business, Hewlett-Packard Co .'s share of the market for the devices grew slightly in the third quarter.

    Market researchers at Gartner show the Palo Alto company's (NYSE:HPQ) share of the PC market in the recent quarter from grew from 17.4 percent to 17.7 percent. It showed No. 2 Lenovo also growing its share from 11.1 percent to 13.5 percent, while No. 3 Dell Inc. dropped from from 12.2 to 11.6 percent.

    Researchers at IDC , meanwhile, show HP grew to 18.1 percent from 17.8 percent, while No. 2 Lenovo grew to 13.7 percent and Dell dropped to 12 percent...
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    HP PC market share grew amid spinoff talk - Dallas Business Journal
    Despite talk that it might spin off its personal computer business, Hewlett-Packard Co .'s share of the market for the devices grew slightly in the third quarter.

    Market researchers at Gartner show the Palo Alto company's (NYSE:HPQ) share of the PC market in the recent quarter from grew from 17.4 percent to 17.7 percent. It showed No. 2 Lenovo also growing its share from 11.1 percent to 13.5 percent, while No. 3 Dell Inc. dropped from from 12.2 to 11.6 percent.

    Researchers at IDC , meanwhile, show HP grew to 18.1 percent from 17.8 percent, while No. 2 Lenovo grew to 13.7 percent and Dell dropped to 12 percent...
    Hi...I for one would think twice over buying anything HP, (I doubt I'm the only one here at this site or just the customer at large for the huge and expensive blunder in buying webOS just to kill it right away & for hiring a person that none of the BOD could even bother interviewing before they hired him)... b/c they paid a fortune to the village *****...they can't make a choice and stick with ...they couldn't wait a few weeks more and wait for webOS 3.1.1 then to send out a product that they had to know would have problems passing the muster with the reviewers...

    Take care,

    jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert View Post
    (I doubt I'm the only one here at this site or just the customer at large for the huge and expensive blunder in buying webOS just to kill it right away & for hiring a person that none of the BOD could even bother interviewing before they hired him)
    If you read about HP enough one thing you don't see is tons of investors mad that they canceled a massive money loser webos. The remorse is with tech people not investors. Investors think they were dumb to buy it in the first place.

    There's nobody outside of techblogs saying they should bring back a product they were losing 300 billion a quarter on.

    And nobody is gonna write that if only they had kept webos they would have done great. It was said in the call last quarter had they kept webos it was another 300 million loss. So even if they take a loss, continuing with webos would have made the PSG losses $300+ million worse.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    If you read about HP enough one thing you don't see is tons of investors mad that they canceled a massive money loser webos. The remorse is with tech people not investors. Investors think they were dumb to buy it in the first place.

    There's nobody outside of techblogs saying they should bring back a product they were losing 300 billion a quarter on.

    And nobody is gonna write that if only they had kept webos they would have done great. It was said in the call last quarter had they kept webos it was another 300 million loss. So even if they take a loss, continuing with webos would have made the PSG losses $300+ million worse.
    HI, I think some investors will look at what Mark Hurd wanted to so and say that HP has a very Mature product line and that the PC division's profits shrink year to year....they had the chance to turn HP into something similar to Apple and screwed it up....

    Trust me, most firms that follow what HP does are well aware of what Hurd wanted to do and outright say....HP is still a company with a very large problem b/c the still are selling a great deal of product with a very low markup....at this point Apple is sucking money in not just on phones...but on apps, music, ebooks, etc....

    Apple gets 30% of newspapers, I think they get more than that on ebooks and songs...

    After all, the columns that faulted HP for the proposed and now likely killed off spin off but they also stressed the PC division's profits were getting slimmer year to year...investors aren't as stupid as Leo and the board seem to think so....they see Apple and now Amazon bring in huge profits from tablet devices and HP screwed it all up...

    Even if the Win 8 tablets are a success...the prices of them will narrow in a few years and then HP is back in the same mess it's in now...plus HP HAS NO PIPELINE AND NO PROFITS TO BE MADE ON APPS, MUSIC & VIDEOS....

    They blew a chance to have a very secure profit line and blew it....while HP is profitable now...the future of PC's is that the profit is getting slimmer and slimmer.....a number of coulmns and analysts have mentioned that HP should become more like Apple....and that ship, the SS Leo has sailed and SUNK!

    Keep in mind that of all of HP's lines the Printer Div is the most profitable....not because they make large margins on printers but b/c they sell ink, photo paper etc....

    That what Hurd was going to try to do with webOS.....

    Now Meg has to undo the spin off and they are still screwed, because they still haven't found away to greatly increase the profit margin of the PC div....

    Take care,

    Jay

    Oh BTW my broker tells me his firm is telling people to stay away from HP and see how Meg does for awhile....he has no idea about webOS and has never used it...although even he felt the should have cut a deal with Amazon or someone else so they could have made a great deal of money on content....
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
    SmartFah likes this.
  6. #6  
    Hhmm.. 'Apple' // 'HP'..
    The mind boggles..
    What if Apotheker had consumed similar amounts of halucinogenic substances in his youth, as Jobs had readily 'admitted' to?

    On second thoughts, maybe he DID.. and OD'd.. and that explains it ALL!

    Ugly alright!

    Sorry to sound so facetious!
    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/17/2011 at 09:19 PM.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    If you read about HP enough one thing you don't see is tons of investors mad that they canceled a massive money loser webos. The remorse is with tech people not investors. Investors think they were dumb to buy it in the first place.
    I agree completley. Tech public always had soft spot for Palm, investors never understood why HP bought it in first place.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert View Post
    HI, I think some investors will look at what Mark Hurd wanted to so and say that HP has a very Mature product line and that the PC division's profits shrink year to year....they had the chance to turn HP into something similar to Apple and screwed it up....

    Trust me, most firms that follow what HP does are well aware of what Hurd wanted to do and outright say....HP is still a company with a very large problem b/c the still are selling a great deal of product with a very low markup....at this point Apple is sucking money in not just on phones...but on apps, music, ebooks, etc....

    Apple gets 30% of newspapers, I think they get more than that on ebooks and songs...

    After all, the columns that faulted HP for the proposed and now likely killed off spin off but they also stressed the PC division's profits were getting slimmer year to year...investors aren't as stupid as Leo and the board seem to think so....they see Apple and now Amazon bring in huge profits from tablet devices and HP screwed it all up...

    Even if the Win 8 tablets are a success...the prices of them will narrow in a few years and then HP is back in the same mess it's in now...plus HP HAS NO PIPELINE AND NO PROFITS TO BE MADE ON APPS, MUSIC & VIDEOS....

    They blew a chance to have a very secure profit line and blew it....while HP is profitable now...the future of PC's is that the profit is getting slimmer and slimmer.....a number of coulmns and analysts have mentioned that HP should become more like Apple....and that ship, the SS Leo has sailed and SUNK!

    Keep in mind that of all of HP's lines the Printer Div is the most profitable....not because they make large margins on printers but b/c they sell ink, photo paper etc....

    That what Hurd was going to try to do with webOS.....

    Now Meg has to undo the spin off and they are still screwed, because they still haven't found away to greatly increase the profit margin of the PC div....

    Take care,

    Jay

    Oh BTW my broker tells me his firm is telling people to stay away from HP and see how Meg does for awhile....he has no idea about webOS and has never used it...although even he felt the should have cut a deal with Amazon or someone else so they could have made a great deal of money on content....
    You're all over the place. The fact that apple makes money in a myriad of was is an argument for investing in apple not HP. HP does not have the same music, movie, tv, or app revenue streams. And they are different companies. HP is largely a computer company and enterprise company that sell ink. Apple is a consumer electronics company.

    Nothing you've said rebuts the point that it's tech people NOT investors upset about ending webos. The spin off is an idea, dumb or not, That's not about webos it's about seperating a consumer market that's a drag on earning from an enterprise market of services and storage that is growing. IBM did it. HP wants to do it. IBM got out of computers. HP wants to do it. Or at least separate it so it doesn't drag down HP's share price.


    "Trust you?" Ha. Not a chance. I was a long time tech sector investor. I researched all these companies and many more for quite a time and I trust my own analysis and those of professional investors much more then some guys on gizmodo, or precentral, of this is my next spewing "leo sucks" as an investment plan.

    Everyone knows why they bought Palm and what role they'd hoped it would fill. But it didn't. They tried to sell devices. Nobody bought them and rather then add to PSG profits webos was costing them more and more each quarter. $332 last quarter. It was estimated it would be higher this quarter. The plan didn't work. People were not going to all of a sudden start buying $400 touchpads and make them profitable. And that's the part where people are in denial. The fact is what they offered people didn't want to buy unless it was sold at a loss and investors don't want anything sold at a loss. Tech guys on blogs don't care. They are like sell it for a buck, open source it, do some other random idea that make no money. Because none of the money is there's. They have the luxury of making suggestions w/o consequences. They don't have to fire people when it goes wrong or answer to a boss. They don't have to account to shareholders why it's a smart decision to lose $330+ and growing million every quarter for then next year. The put the veer in stores. It didn't sell. They put the touchpad in stores. It didn't sell. If they put the pre 3 in stores now with it's 5 megapixel camera and dated design againsts the power house android and apple and windows phones it wasn't going to sell either. Why do i say that? Cause nothing on webos has sold well at full price. Even the original pre sales went off a cliff after the first three weeks. And slow HP was looking at probably another year until it could get a replacement tablet and flagship phone to market. And the other thing is nothings preventing HP from releasing tablets with android Window 8, or phones with android or Windows phone 7 in the future so that's still an alternative. Though personally i'm not a fan of current android tablets. but my feelings are beside the point. Point is they can still have tablets. Point is HP still has ways to offer tablets if it wants to.

    You can poke around on the investor blogs, on cnbc, the street.com, yahoo finance hpq page and read the news and stuff about HP. What you may see investors asking has it fallen enough to get in, that they should not spin off PSG, that management at HP doesn't have a plan, That Autonomy purchase was way to expensive at 10.3 billion dollars. I hear all of that debated. What you don't see is a majority of investors, financial writers, or people in speaking about HP in the investment community arguing that single thing that will turn HP around that the one genius thing they need to do is start reselling touchpads and pre 3s. They may argue that the fact that they shut it down was that they were wrong to buy it in the first place and poorly analyzed the mobile computing market place, failed to understand the amount of money require (money they didn't have mind you). But i don't see those people saying yeah bring back webos and you'll make boat loads of money. That's just not a buzz i see outside of tech websites.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    You're all over the place. The fact that apple makes money in a myriad of was is an argument for investing in apple not HP. HP does not have the same music, movie, tv, or app revenue streams. And they are different companies. HP is largely a computer company and enterprise company that sell ink. Apple is a consumer electronics company.

    Nothing you've said rebuts the point that it's tech people NOT investors upset about ending webos. The spin off is an idea, dumb or not, That's not about webos it's about seperating a consumer market that's a drag on earning from an enterprise market of services and storage that is growing. IBM did it. HP wants to do it. IBM got out of computers. HP wants to do it. Or at least separate it so it doesn't drag down HP's share price.


    "Trust you?" Ha. Not a chance. I was a long time tech sector investor. I researched all these companies and many more for quite a time and I trust my own analysis and those of professional investors much more then some guys on gizmodo, or precentral, of this is my next spewing "leo sucks" as an investment plan.

    Everyone knows why they bought Palm and what role they'd hoped it would fill. But it didn't. They tried to sell devices. Nobody bought them and rather then add to PSG profits webos was costing them more and more each quarter. $332 last quarter. It was estimated it would be higher this quarter. The plan didn't work. People were not going to all of a sudden start buying $400 touchpads and make them profitable. And that's the part where people are in denial. The fact is what they offered people didn't want to buy unless it was sold at a loss and investors don't want anything sold at a loss. Tech guys on blogs don't care. They are like sell it for a buck, open source it, do some other random idea that make no money. Because none of the money is there's. They have the luxury of making suggestions w/o consequences. They don't have to fire people when it goes wrong or answer to a boss. They don't have to account to shareholders why it's a smart decision to lose $330+ and growing million every quarter for then next year. The put the veer in stores. It didn't sell. They put the touchpad in stores. It didn't sell. If they put the pre 3 in stores now with it's 5 megapixel camera and dated design againsts the power house android and apple and windows phones it wasn't going to sell either. Why do i say that? Cause nothing on webos has sold well at full price. Even the original pre sales went off a cliff after the first three weeks. And slow HP was looking at probably another year until it could get a replacement tablet and flagship phone to market. And the other thing is nothings preventing HP from releasing tablets with android Window 8, or phones with android or Windows phone 7 in the future so that's still an alternative. Though personally i'm not a fan of current android tablets. but my feelings are beside the point. Point is they can still have tablets. Point is HP still has ways to offer tablets if it wants to.

    You can poke around on the investor blogs, on cnbc, the street.com, yahoo finance hpq page and read the news and stuff about HP. What you may see investors asking has it fallen enough to get in, that they should not spin off PSG, that management at HP doesn't have a plan, That Autonomy purchase was way to expensive at 10.3 billion dollars. I hear all of that debated. What you don't see is a majority of investors, financial writers, or people in speaking about HP in the investment community arguing that single thing that will turn HP around that the one genius thing they need to do is start reselling touchpads and pre 3s. They may argue that the fact that they shut it down was that they were wrong to buy it in the first place and poorly analyzed the mobile computing market place, failed to understand the amount of money require (money they didn't have mind you). But i don't see those people saying yeah bring back webos and you'll make boat loads of money. That's just not a buzz i see outside of tech websites.
    Big deal, you don't get profitable from 7 weeks of sales. Most of that money lost had nothing to do with sales, it had to do with development. Nobody is dumb enough to think that something will be immediately profitable. Everyone expects to have to dump money into beginning a new endeavor. The PSG was still profitable, the amount of money they were bleeding, although seems like a lot, was not going to put them out of business. HP makes like 10B a year over 30B revenue, a 1B loss written off is like 600M. They could easily have sustained it, RIM is, they are looking towards their next product already.

    And you are looking towards investors to define long term strategy for a business? That is ********, investors only care about profits now, they could care less about building something for the future. Which is exactly what companies need to do.

    HP didn't try. Big deal, their stuff didn't sell right away. You just dumped 1.2B to buy something, you think you would try a little bit harder to make it work had you actually wanted it to. Boo Hoo, it didn't take down Apple after 6 weeks...

    The magnitude of the stupidity on their behalf for cutting so early is why this is all over the news by the way. It is because everyone in the world saw that they acted extremely irrationally when and how they did it.
    LCGuy and gbp like this.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    Big deal, you don't get profitable from 7 weeks of sales. Most of that money lost had nothing to do with sales, it had to do with development. Nobody is dumb enough to think that something will be immediately profitable. Everyone expects to have to dump money into beginning a new endeavor. The PSG was still profitable, the amount of money they were bleeding, although seems like a lot, was not going to put them out of business. HP makes like 10B a year over 30B revenue, a 1B loss written off is like 600M. They could easily have sustained it, RIM is, they are looking towards their next product already.

    And you are looking towards investors to define long term strategy for a business? That is ********, investors only care about profits now, they could care less about building something for the future. Which is exactly what companies need to do.

    HP didn't try. Big deal, their stuff didn't sell right away. You just dumped 1.2B to buy something, you think you would try a little bit harder to make it work had you actually wanted it to. Boo Hoo, it didn't take down Apple after 6 weeks...

    The magnitude of the stupidity on their behalf for cutting so early is why this is all over the news by the way. It is because everyone in the world saw that they acted extremely irrationally when and how they did it.
    Im with you on this; I feel that the bottom line is that top management (not Bradley, but those above him, ie LA and the NEW BOD he slid into position) weren't smart enough to know what they had, and evaluate it accordingly, so, they figured it was failing even before it did, and just looked for the quickest evidence to put thier plan, already in place, into effect.

    It's funny, many years ago, I threw out some excess cardboard, and later on, found out that my daughter had been looking for cardboard just like it, had taken it out of the garbage and used it for a school project that she recieved a very high grade for.

    "value" is very, VERY subjective, and the more open-minded and innovative (read: the ability to think outside the box) the evaluator is, the more likely anything he/she owns will be put to great use.

    Just sayin...

    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  11. gbp
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    You're all over the place. The fact that apple makes money in a myriad of was is an argument for investing in apple not HP. HP does not have the same music, movie, tv, or app revenue streams. And they are different companies. HP is largely a computer company and enterprise company that sell ink. Apple is a consumer electronics company.

    Nothing you've said rebuts the point that it's tech people NOT investors upset about ending webos. The spin off is an idea, dumb or not, That's not about webos it's about seperating a consumer market that's a drag on earning from an enterprise market of services and storage that is growing. IBM did it. HP wants to do it. IBM got out of computers. HP wants to do it. Or at least separate it so it doesn't drag down HP's share price.


    "Trust you?" Ha. Not a chance. I was a long time tech sector investor. I researched all these companies and many more for quite a time and I trust my own analysis and those of professional investors much more then some guys on gizmodo, or precentral, of this is my next spewing "leo sucks" as an investment plan.

    Everyone knows why they bought Palm and what role they'd hoped it would fill. But it didn't. They tried to sell devices. Nobody bought them and rather then add to PSG profits webos was costing them more and more each quarter. $332 last quarter. It was estimated it would be higher this quarter. The plan didn't work. People were not going to all of a sudden start buying $400 touchpads and make them profitable. And that's the part where people are in denial. The fact is what they offered people didn't want to buy unless it was sold at a loss and investors don't want anything sold at a loss. Tech guys on blogs don't care. They are like sell it for a buck, open source it, do some other random idea that make no money. Because none of the money is there's. They have the luxury of making suggestions w/o consequences. They don't have to fire people when it goes wrong or answer to a boss. They don't have to account to shareholders why it's a smart decision to lose $330+ and growing million every quarter for then next year. The put the veer in stores. It didn't sell. They put the touchpad in stores. It didn't sell. If they put the pre 3 in stores now with it's 5 megapixel camera and dated design againsts the power house android and apple and windows phones it wasn't going to sell either. Why do i say that? Cause nothing on webos has sold well at full price. Even the original pre sales went off a cliff after the first three weeks. And slow HP was looking at probably another year until it could get a replacement tablet and flagship phone to market. And the other thing is nothings preventing HP from releasing tablets with android Window 8, or phones with android or Windows phone 7 in the future so that's still an alternative. Though personally i'm not a fan of current android tablets. but my feelings are beside the point. Point is they can still have tablets. Point is HP still has ways to offer tablets if it wants to.

    You can poke around on the investor blogs, on cnbc, the street.com, yahoo finance hpq page and read the news and stuff about HP. What you may see investors asking has it fallen enough to get in, that they should not spin off PSG, that management at HP doesn't have a plan, That Autonomy purchase was way to expensive at 10.3 billion dollars. I hear all of that debated. What you don't see is a majority of investors, financial writers, or people in speaking about HP in the investment community arguing that single thing that will turn HP around that the one genius thing they need to do is start reselling touchpads and pre 3s. They may argue that the fact that they shut it down was that they were wrong to buy it in the first place and poorly analyzed the mobile computing market place, failed to understand the amount of money require (money they didn't have mind you). But i don't see those people saying yeah bring back webos and you'll make boat loads of money. That's just not a buzz i see outside of tech websites.
    I guess you post is all over the place. The only thing correct in your argument is webOS is bleeding and HP stock tanked.

    Now think about future.How can HP make money ?

    Autonomy ? Which was passed by ORACLE for 3 Billion. HP paid 7 billion more, ITS 7 B I L L I O N S MORE. Good luck hoping to add bottom line revenue on this no so great company with a CEO who is a liar.

    Services ? I can tell you that their EDS division is a second tier service company when it comes to consulting. Good luck fighting with the likes of IBM/Accenture/Cap Gemini and even Dell's-Perot.

    Network gear ? HP has a long way to go before matching the likes of Cisco

    The only divisions that are making money and will continue to make money are printing and PC (though smaller percentage).

    So what should HP do to make money ?

    I will not argue about the current webOS, because its a failed product/system. However if I were HP I would first say bye bye to Autonomy. Then keep PC division. Finally I would risk taking losses for a year on webOS. I would fire the non essential folks in the webOS team before giving the product chief (Dewitt) one year to release few products in a smaller scale so that the losses are limited while building a customer base for webOS. ( BTW, do you know that it takes long time to build a mobile eco system ? Microsoft is still cooking since 2007, that's 5 years, YES 5 years).

    The whole HP fiasco is a pipe dream of Ray Lane, who is still having nightmares from his ORACLE time. Ray just used Leo to kill webOS. Now he wants to become another Sam Palmisano and fight Ellison. Not a chance. He be better of going back to the venture capital world.

    Investors ( including you and me too) are just there for the money. They have no idea how HP works and they don't care about it. All we (yes you and I) care is for the stock. Did the stock went up or not ? . We as investors should not ask why did HP buy Palm in the first place . Its too late. If we as investors were smart, most of us would have bought Apple circa 1998/99. There were practically no takers for Apple stock during that time that Michael Dell said he would shut Apple and give money to the investors.

    Take it easy. webOS is dead, as an enthusiast I miss the gadgets for a day or may be for a month, but the days are numbered for HP ( Disclaimer , I lost some money , but I am glad that I dumped all of my HP stock).
  12. #12  
    We always seem to have the same arguments in here. I don't have much more to add to the convo than what has already been stated. With that said, I agree that they didn't give it enough time to see how things would play out. Imagine if Microsoft did the same thing when they came to the market with the Xbox. They lost a lot of money for a while, but now they're a main player in the console arena. Not saying that would have been the outcome for WebOS, but it definitely didn't have to go this route.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    Big deal, you don't get profitable from 7 weeks of sales. Most of that money lost had nothing to do with sales, it had to do with development. Nobody is dumb enough to think that something will be immediately profitable. Everyone expects to have to dump money into beginning a new endeavor. The PSG was still profitable, the amount of money they were bleeding, although seems like a lot, was not going to put them out of business. HP makes like 10B a year over 30B revenue, a 1B loss written off is like 600M. They could easily have sustained it, RIM is, they are looking towards their next product already.

    And you are looking towards investors to define long term strategy for a business? That is ********, investors only care about profits now, they could care less about building something for the future. Which is exactly what companies need to do.

    HP didn't try. Big deal, their stuff didn't sell right away. You just dumped 1.2B to buy something, you think you would try a little bit harder to make it work had you actually wanted it to. Boo Hoo, it didn't take down Apple after 6 weeks...

    The magnitude of the stupidity on their behalf for cutting so early is why this is all over the news by the way. It is because everyone in the world saw that they acted extremely irrationally when and how they did it.
    the deal is the device has a product life of one year. and at the rate they were going they were not going to be profitable for the life of the device. So yeah it's a big deal. You had retailers like BEst Buy sending 90% of your devices back unsold. HP TouchPad a dud at Best Buy, sell-through rate falls below 10% When you can't sell 90% your product has a problem. You don't have a good business. And there's nothing to write off. It's just a 1 billion loss and even if it only stayed the same it was closer to 1.2 billion loss in one year: the entire price of Palm. There's no tax deduction or anything.

    HP and RIM are not in the same boat. RIMM still sells a **** load of phones. HP does not. And one profitable division wasn't going to have to carry an unprofitable one for multiple years.

    31 billion? That's revenue not profit. HP's Q3 non GAAP earnings were $1.9 billion total. They were not making $10 billion anymore that's the problem. Their earnings plummeted last quarter. And you suggest they , being conservative, take a $1.2 billion loss on webos alone every year? HP also estimated the quarterly loss that was $332 billion and would increase had they continued so it likely would be more then $1.2 billion per year. “We would expect a larger loss in Q4 if we continued to operating webOS in its current form,” Lesjak said. “Continuing investing in webOS would take one to two years and increase risk without a clear return.”So two years of losses likely and you'd suggest they lose almost 1/4 of their yearly earnings? Seriously. They make $1.9 Bill a quarter. You want them to lose that much in one year?

    I'm not looking at investors to "define the strategy" that's HP's job. but profits do matter. They show the strength or weakness of a companies at a current state. And bottom line profits are what runs a company. It pays it's bills. It pays salaries. It's the purpose of the company. Profits are the most important thing. It's not a nonprofit. Its not a charity. But i'm sure as hell not looking to phone geeks to do it either cause if you left it to them HP would surely go bankrupt because they'd spend money at a loss chasing causes that are not profitable and relying on declining ink sales to carry them. A recipe for big losses.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    I guess you post is all over the place. The only thing correct in your argument is webOS is bleeding and HP stock tanked.
    really. the only thing. So autonomy wasn't 10.3 billion? That's wrong? People didn't think it was overprice? That's wrong too? They were not losing $332 billion on webos a quarter? What did they commit a Securities fraud by making a knowingly material misrepresentation in the earnings call? Come on. Your statement is a bit of exaggeration. What i said was true. Tons of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Now think about future.How can HP make money ?

    Autonomy ? Which was passed by ORACLE for 3 Billion. HP paid 7 billion more, ITS 7 B I L L I O N S MORE. Good luck hoping to add bottom line revenue on this no so great company with a CEO who is a liar.

    Services ? I can tell you that their EDS division is a second tier service company when it comes to consulting. Good luck fighting with the likes of IBM/Accenture/Cap Gemini and even Dell's-Perot.

    Network gear ? HP has a long way to go before matching the likes of Cisco
    i was never arguing that buying automony was smart. Honestly i think HP is a pretty **** company with a bleek outlook unless it makes huge changes and i don't know that buying Autonomy is the answer or that it's not already to late to focus on services like they want to. None of that means continuing another year trying to sell webos phones nobody wanted was a good idea. MY point was really that stories about not spinning off psg and stuff should not be equated to outrage over webos.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    The only divisions that are making money and will continue to make money are printing and PC (though smaller percentage).
    but that is not true. Services grew 4%, Enterprise grew 7%, Software grew 20%, Financial services grew 22%. I'm not looking up all the profit but their profits are here http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1

    All while Imaging fell 1% and PSG fell 3% with consumer PCs falling 17%

    Point is none of HP is doing great but the part that's growing isn't PSG or Imaging. They have been stagnant. PSG has been in decline for three straight quarters.



    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Investors ( including you and me too) are just there for the money. They have no idea how HP works and they don't care about it.
    no offense but if you don't know how a company works you shouldn't be investing in a company. That's just how people lost money on Enron. To Quote Buffett, "There are all kinds of businesses that Charlie and I don’t understand, but that doesn’t cause us to stay up at night. It just means we go on to the next one, and that’s what the individual investor should do."




    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    but the days are numbered for HP ( Disclaimer , I lost some money , but I am glad that I dumped all of my HP stock).
    disclaimer. I made money on Palm and dump it at like 16. dumped largely because i believed the reports of declining sell through after one month showed a sketchy future (along with Palm's unwillingness to give sales numbers). I was right. But HP? I on numerous occasions (years ago) have traded in and out of HP but in the last three years have always declined. Why? A history of horrible management, and there two biggest revenue divisions Imaging and PSG are in declining markets are going the wrong direction with little outlook of change coupled with a very strong belief that buying Palm was a mistake. Unless you've got multiple billions to burn each year, like Microsoft or Apple i think anyone trying to sell webos is in trouble. But then again i wasn't gonna invest in any PC makers so that market as a whole was garbage for me. But i'm glad everyday i did not buy HP. And i still have zero faith in their management. So in that respect i'm with you, i think it's "days are numbered" unless they something drastic changes. But i don't see it happening. They'll die slowly.
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 10/18/2011 at 11:05 PM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    the deal is the device has a product life of one year. and at the rate they were going they were not going to be profitable for the life of the device. So yeah it's a big deal. You had retailers like BEst Buy sending 90% of your devices back unsold. HP TouchPad a dud at Best Buy, sell-through rate falls below 10% When you can't sell 90% your product has a problem. You don't have a good business. And there's nothing to write off. It's just a 1 billion loss and even if it only stayed the same it was closer to 1.2 billion loss in one year: the entire price of Palm. There's no tax deduction or anything.

    HP and RIM are not in the same boat. RIMM still sells a **** load of phones. HP does not. And one profitable division wasn't going to have to carry an unprofitable one for multiple years.

    31 billion? That's revenue not profit. HP's Q3 non GAAP earnings were $1.9 billion total. They were not making $10 billion anymore that's the problem. Their earnings plummeted last quarter. And you suggest they , being conservative, take a $1.2 billion loss on webos alone every year? HP also estimated the quarterly loss that was $332 billion and would increase had they continued so it likely would be more then $1.2 billion per year. “We would expect a larger loss in Q4 if we continued to operating webOS in its current form,” Lesjak said. “Continuing investing in webOS would take one to two years and increase risk without a clear return.”So two years of losses likely and you'd suggest they lose almost 1/4 of their yearly earnings? Seriously. They make $1.9 Bill a quarter. You want them to lose that much in one year?

    I'm not looking at investors to "define the strategy" that's HP's job. but profits do matter. They show the strength or weakness of a companies at a current state. And bottom line profits are what runs a company. It pays it's bills. It pays salaries. It's the purpose of the company. Profits are the most important thing. It's not a nonprofit. Its not a charity. But i'm sure as hell not looking to phone geeks to do it either cause if you left it to them HP would surely go bankrupt because they'd spend money at a loss chasing causes that are not profitable and relying on declining ink sales to carry them. A recipe for big losses.
    Nope.

    Inventory is valued for the year which determines your COGS, which directly lowers your gross profit for the year, which is essentially the same as a tax deduction.

    As for the ludicrous notion of entering an entirely new line of business and abandoning it after 6 weeks, it is absolutely absurd. If you have made the capital investment to acquire a new line of business then you better damn well you make sure that you give it at least a realistic try. If you think you are going to enter into the mobile space and suddenly take down the market leader after 6 weeks then I got some directions for you, try to rotate your head 180 degrees and pull out until you can 1) see daylight and 2) it no longer smells like ****.

    We have all seen what the fire sale did to TP interest. So, fire sale your inventory, create interest, come out with something better, and try again. Who cares, in the end you decreased your profit less than your revenues anyway (essentially a deduction). They couldn't be dumb enough to think that they were going to be a key player in the mobile space after the first 6 weeks, but, enough buzz, a growing user base, and making it through to a good product certainly could have paid dividends in the long run. It is pretty obvious that they weren't at all interested in getting there...

    If you invest the money, you might as well try. If you can't make it after putting a decent attempt in then call it a loss and move on... At least then your investors will be happy that you got rid of the ailing assets rather than losing confidence in you altogether for doing something so insanely stupid that it becomes an instant historic event.
    Last edited by LizardWiz; 10/18/2011 at 11:50 PM.
  16. gbp
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post

    but that is not true. Services grew 4%, Enterprise grew 7%, Software grew 20%, Financial services grew 22%. I'm not looking up all the profit but their profits are here http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1

    All while Imaging fell 1% and PSG fell 3% with consumer PCs falling 17%

    Point is none of HP is doing great but the part that's growing isn't PSG or Imaging. They have been stagnant. PSG has been in decline for three straight quarters.
    Okay, the PSG and Printers fell. Big deal. They make up 51% of HP business and bring 15 Billions every quarter with some profit.The rest of the divisions grew, but thats just this quarter. So the sage men want to kill 50% of business as opposed to fix it ? This is the new management theory I believe. Don't fix it, sell it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    no offense but if you don't know how a company works you shouldn't be investing in a company. That's just how people lost money on Enron. To Quote Buffett, "There are all kinds of businesses that Charlie and I don’t understand, but that doesn’t cause us to stay up at night. It just means we go on to the next one, and that’s what the individual investor should do."
    Correct, the investor knew how apple works in Apple in 98. Most of the investors had no clue about how great Apple is going to be.

    As an investor , I would buy back HP stock in a year if they keep webOS and release vastly improved products in a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    disclaimer. I made money on Palm and dump it at like 16. dumped largely because i believed the reports of declining sell through after one month showed a sketchy future (along with Palm's unwillingness to give sales numbers). I was right. But HP? I on numerous occasions (years ago) have traded in and out of HP but in the last three years have always declined.
    So you predicted well ,I got burned by Palm and HP. But I was more happy when I sold HP stock. And without clear business plan I am not sure how they survive.
  17. #17  
    Investors do not get high tech as they are too focused on short term financial gain.

    Remember when Apple released the iPod in the early 2000s among a sea of MP3 players, how the investors criticized them for doing so while they were making losses as a company?? Especially since it needed iTunes on a Mac to work. Well it looks like it worked out for Apple.

    Point is investors look at QtoQ and YtoY numbers vs long term strategies to position a company. There is a market for webOS in the future, but it will take the will and time to execute.

    Apple is going in a direction that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, as they are controlling and dictating way too much to consumers. Android is just not slick as an overall OS, and MS is still trying to figure out devices (after being one of the first in that space).
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog-yota View Post
    Apple is going in a direction that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, as they are controlling and dictating way too much to consumers. Android is just not slick as an overall OS, and MS is still trying to figure out devices (after being one of the first in that space).
    Hi all,

    I'm one of those persons....years ago Jobs had a cow and carried on about MS suing him and wanting to control the world....now the shoe is on the other foot.....

    Apple is being sued by a number of states and individual....mostly b/c they get to determine whose products can download from iTunes and who can't...ironic considering Jobs' own words...

    Am I sorry he was ill and passed away....YES....but Jobs saw the world one way and I see it another...he talked people into believing the didn't need choice and then sold them a product in the image of what he wanted but not necessarily what the consumer wanted....

    I want to pick and choose which options and items I want...Jobs went back to Henry Ford's philosophy, "You can have it in any color as long as it's black"....

    As to your point about Android not being as slick...I agree with you there...however all in all Apple didn't and doesn't have features I've come to enjoy and rely on....keyboard, removable batteries, ability to download from who I want to... not having Big Brother telling me which apps will be sold on iTunes and which won't....and frankly it appalls me that Apple groupies can't stand anyone who speaks their piece against Apple and the iGOD phone....

    ...let alone the studies that iFan-boys and girls actually use the same part of the brain for religion on EEG and MRI's...that really creeps me out...this in particular bothers me...I spent my life embracing the difference in myself from others....

    ...I was raised by extraordinary parents*** who stressed individuality above all and the idea of going with a crowd doesn't sit well with me at all...not having an opinion other than the masses truly doesn't sit well with me....and the trolling of sites that don't bow down to the temple of Apple upset me...

    ***(many of my friends were closer with my own parents then with their own....when my fantastic and brilliant father was diagnosed with end stage cancer...most of my friends from NY flew down here to Florida to see him...the same is true when my Mom had her stroke...I truly can say I have had the privilege of being raised by amazing people)...
    Take care,

    Jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert View Post
    Apple is being sued by a number of states and individual....mostly b/c they get to determine whose products can download from iTunes and who can't...ironic considering Jobs' own words...
    Which states and individuals?
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Which states and individuals?

    Hi all,

    I'll have to do some homework for that info... Massachusetts sued Apple an done claiming that Apple's products and the iTunes store discriminated against the disabled, (specificity the blond)...in the settlement. Apple added voice prompts to gen 5 Ipod nano...they also are supposed to be adding voice prompts to all iPods and iPhones....

    They also had to modify the website to be more user friendly to the blind and other disabled persons.

    I do know gen 5 Nano has voice prompts, as I bought one for my then G/F who is now my fiancee, we don't live together so I've only used the iPod when I loaded a bunch of music on for her before I gave it to her...

    Apple did tell me that they don't have the voice prompts switched on for all functions and it needed apps to do so..such as telling you how many minutes you've fast forwarded...since she is out of town I can't ask her which functions that Apple was waiting for apps to make even more user friendly to the disabled....(I do know that Massachusetts wanted the iPod to function much like the digital book player from the Library of Congress' National Library for the Blind and handicapped.....of which we have two in the house, mine and my mother's, I use it every day so I can tell you the voice prompts and audio time indexing is a life saver for this disabled person)!

    When Apple made the settlement, it was mentioned in a number of articles that Apple was being sued by a number of states and individuals mostly for how the iTunes store decided what products can and cannot download from iTunes...

    If I'm not mistaken the State of California already sued or was about to on the subject in the area of constraint of trade....they are also being sued by at least one but I think it's a number of musical trade groups contenting that Apple is price fixing with it's pricing structure in the iTunes store....

    Those of us who have been long time readers of this site will remember the ongoing feud between Apple and Palm over the ability of the original Palm Pre to be able to use iTunes...Apple did win the right to do so with the board that over sees how USB ports are utilized, but they were never cleared of the issue of competitiveness.

    If one of you has time please look it up for me...or it will go onto my never ending pile of things I will get to soon...

    I'm positive that the lawsuits that were then mentioned dealt with the iTunes store....not it's products....which is interesting since Amazon doesn't limit what players you can download to, (the stipulation being that the device has to of course technically be able to download apps, music or books to)....and Amazon makes a great deal of money on it's downloads...after all they are no selling more books as ebooks than print books....so Apple can't use that as a legal fall back position.

    Take care,

    Jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
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