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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    Ok guys let me lay this to rest: Google does not make money from Android or any fees to the manufacturer. Android is completely open source. I do believe Google's specific apps -- calendar, Gmail and Market Place -- are closed source, but could be open because HTC can change the look of the default apps. However, Google makes money from you using Gmail, the Market Place and other features where ads can be placed.
    So that takes care of the rumored $15 fee for Google's apps, but what about the fees that are being charged by Microsoft for patent infringement?
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    It is not just Microsoft, Android has so many other patent infringement issues that it is pretty scary. Until they bought Motorola, Googles patent library was negligible in the mobile space, namely, they pretty much had none. Aside from that, they did nothin to defend these lawsuits for their hardware partners. I believe that this Oracle/JAVA issue is, unfortunately, pretty damning for Google here. It appears to show blatant willful infringement. This is somewhat dubious for the platform going forward, especially considering Oracle is attempting to "double dip" ie, they are most likely going to get licensing fees from Google AND their hardware manufacturers for each device sold...
    Yes, Google refusal or inability to shield the hardware makers from Microsoft's extortion speaks volumes about Android's so called "freedom".
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    It's simple. webOS and Android use the same underlying OS, Linux. Add the open source Davlik libraries to webOS and you can run Android apps on it. webOS has rock solid patent protection from Palm. Android does not, which is why Microsoft can get away with charging fees for it. How many handsets and tablets does HTC or Samsung sell now and plan to sell in the future? We are talking about hundreds of millions. Multiply that by $10-15 per device AND having to build WP7/8 devices. You get into the billions quick. For what? An OS (Android) that you don't even see revenue from the millions of apps and content that are sold on the devices that you make every month? Not only that but you have to compete with hardware from the company that makes the OS that you are using and thought was free.

    Microsoft did this to Linux desktop distributions and effectively killed their adoption. They are pulling the same trick and succeeding with Android. If they tried to do that with webOS Palm has enough patents to shut down WP7/8/9/X or any other smartphone OS and hardware they try to produce. No one wants to open that can of worms.
    The Davlik VM is the epicenter of the Oracle patent dispute.
    I think Android could be in trouble with these patent issues, the acquisition of Motorola will undoubtedly help somewhat, but nothing can help this Oracle one. It appears to be a slam dunk...
  4. #104  
    from wsj article, sounds like they are reversing psg split off, see thread below--
    So what does that mean for webos if they are still in consumer biz? I wonder if they saw they could sell webos but no buyers for psg


    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-webo...c-spinoff.html
  5. #105  
    The Davlik VM is the epicenter of the Oracle patent dispute.
    I think Android could be in trouble with these patent issues, the acquisition of Motorola will undoubtedly help somewhat, but nothing can help this Oracle one. It appears to be a slam dunk...
    I did not know about that. That's rough. Attacked by Microsoft for OS infringements and by Oracle for window's manager infringements. Makes webOS with Luna look better and better everyday.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    So that takes care of the rumored $15 fee for Google's apps, but what about the fees that are being charged by Microsoft for patent infringement?
    That is being charged but isn't going to Google and in part is why everyone wants patents -- if they can get one Microsoft is infringing on then they can make a deal with Microsoft.
  7. #107  
    As much as I'd like to see WebOS devices back on HP's table, I have to be a little realistic. If we look at HP's current situation. They recently laid off 500+ from the Palm Business Unit? These were mostly in hardware development. Even with Meg stepping up to the plate, it would be quite an uphill battle to convince everyone to bring them back. How would that look?

    Now I'm not saying its impossible for Meg to do the convincing. But this would mean for HP (board members and cabinet members who were involved in the decision to cut) to really bite down on their pride and admit their mistake, given the recent "Accidental User Base". If they can do this, then big kudos to them.

    Now as I'm writing this, news just got out that Meg Whitman May NOT Spin Off HP's Hardware Business.
    http://read.bi/pb19iF

    So this is strong indication she has very different vision for HP than Leo did. But will she see the value of keeping WebOS? She would have to convince HP that there's potential to make ****-loads of money on the mobile apps market. (Mobile App Downloads to Reach 98Billion by 2015. http://tcrn.ch/r31MKf )

    So if you look at the mobile app ecosystem and business, it is almost all profit margin (asides for some overhead). One could argue then that making hardware devices, even at a small loss, could be subsidized by that mobile app market for a few years while the marketshare becomes large enough to reap in the huge profits. This argument alone supports not breaking up WebOS and hardware division due to having one subsidizing the other.

    So then what about the Google-to-Open-Hardware model. It might be good at first to gain the quick marketshare, but even Google is smart enough to gobble up Motorola Wireless as a backup someday. Android now has the Windows problem with compatibility issues due to too many different hardware. It's not easy to maintain so many Device Drivers for so many phones, tablets, multiple resolutions, and multiple graphics chip. That's why there's not as many good 3D games on Android. It's hard to get consistency across the board.

    So the smart strategy for HP is if they are keeping WebOS, then they need to start up the Hardware division again, not matter how bitter the medicine.

    One more factor is I believe HP still has some WebOS champions among their ranks. (Ruby?) If anything, he/she/they will argue to keep WebOS, but at the very least to ensure that WebOS lives on for the sake of its current user base. After all, they owe quite a bit to the community ...and of course vice versa.

    My overdrawn 2-cents,

    Greg H.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    - Greg

    My Palm Pre Evo Tree
    Pilot 5000 -> 1MB Upg -> Zire -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> 4-yr abstinance -> Palm Pre!
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  8. #108  
    What value is there in continuing with webOS? What has changed since their August forecast about having to sink more money into webOS for the next few years without any promise of returns? Especially now when they're in the hole even further because of the fire sale.
  9. #109  
    The value in continuing with WebOS?

    It's because of the Firesale that generated this accidental user base. Oh my gosh. This will forever go down in business history as the biggest 2nd chance success story or the biggest 2nd chance flop because or stupid corporate pride. To have opportunity pass you by twice and not act on it is quite ignoramus.

    Mark my word. Someone please archive these predictions. Ten years from now, we'll see.

    But you have to NOT turn away the Developers and Users. Now cultivate that ecosystem. It's all profits and it's going to be huge. HUGE!

    Greg H.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    - Greg

    My Palm Pre Evo Tree
    Pilot 5000 -> 1MB Upg -> Zire -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> 4-yr abstinance -> Palm Pre!
  10. #110  
    Selling apps to support the existing user base (as expanded as it may be) isn't all profits though. HP has to pay for bandwidth, infrastructure, overhead (like Pivot, if they keep continuing with it), and payment processing. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say Apple sells more iOS apps in a week than HP/Palm has sold in the entire lifespan of webOS...and their 30% cut is just a drop in the bucket compared to where the real money is at (hardware sales).
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    That is being charged but isn't going to Google and in part is why everyone wants patents -- if they can get one Microsoft is infringing on then they can make a deal with Microsoft.
    We have no idea how much Google is charging for their app suite, we do know that there are finite term licensing agreements with each hardware manufacturer individually. All this information came out in a lawsuit regarding Skyhook v Google...
  12. #112  
    What value is there in continuing with webOS? What has changed since their August forecast about having to sink more money into webOS for the next few years without any promise of returns? Especially now when they're in the hole even further because of the fire sale.
    A lot of ****ed off investors, ****ed off customers, and a new CEO. They lost more money with that idiotic announcement then they spent on webOS. They knew how much of an investment they needed to make when they first bought webOS. Nothing changed after that. They were just looking for an excuse to dump the hardware.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
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    #113  
    Just ran across this from tech crunch. 500 layoffs of HP software folks in San Diego. TC indicates that these are webOS related layoffs. No idea as to the inner workings of HP to know if this is possible or not.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs View Post
    Just ran across this from tech crunch. 500 layoffs of HP software folks in San Diego. TC indicates that these are webOS related layoffs. No idea as to the inner workings of HP to know if this is possible or not.
    That was old .. I think like 3 weeks or so

    -- Sent from my Palm Veer using Forums
  15. #115  
    Just ran across this from tech crunch. 500 layoffs of HP software folks in San Diego. TC indicates that these are webOS related layoffs. No idea as to the inner workings of HP to know if this is possible or not.
    Someone confirmed this on Twitter. Why would the webOS software folks be in San Diego? It's 7 hours from Sunnyvale. I hope the plan wasn't to shut down the whole division. What a colossal waste of money and everyone's time. I'm not shocked by HP's stupidity anymore. Waiting on the officially word but it's not looking good.


    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
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    #116  
    Here's a link to that: HP’s Layoffs Taking Effect, ~500 Gone From San Diego Group | TechCrunch

    There's a big difference between keeping the PSG and reviving WebOS hardware development/sales. The PSG and computer sales in general are profitable. The issue was just that they are relatively low margin and thus boring to investors, and there is fear that margins will continue to drop until there is no room for a US company to compete. Not sure that's true, but there you go. But that said, there are obvious synergies between the PSG and other products that HP was always going to keep - for example, between computers (PSG) and servers (staying in HP either way). And even printers were staying in HP, and it really makes no sense to keep one class of consumer products and ditch the other.

    WebOS on the other hand is not an operational matter, it is a strategic matter. The success of WebOS requires a long-term investment, including quite possibly some short-term losses. Investors might accept that if it was tied to the strategic focus of the company. But unless HP is giving up the idea of focusing on (high margin) services, this is a distraction for them. It would be really hard to justify the significant cost of restarting it (and the delays that will occur because of all this nonsense), in order to spend a huge amount of money on it, to support something that will never be more than a sideline for HP.

    Don't get me wrong, I think HP should have kept WebOS as part of their strategic core and stuck with it in the first place. I just think it is too late for them to go back.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by jdale View Post
    Here's a link to that:
    TC isn't the most reliable of sources.. Heck look at their article update... Lol...

    I'll wait for wsj, bi or even PC or WOR to confirm
  18. jmleese's Avatar
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    A lot of ****ed off investors, ****ed off customers, and a new CEO. They lost more money with that idiotic announcement then they spent on webOS. They knew how much of an investment they needed to make when they first bought webOS. Nothing changed after that. They were just looking for an excuse to dump the hardware.



    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
    To follow that up- remember Leo came in & had a very different vision for HP than Hurd did. His bogus dismissal prob is the greatest factor in webOS & HP's current state. Oracle's CEO / founder (cant remember exactly) said HP's decision to fire him was on the level of Jobs being canned by Apple the 1st time. By many accounts Hurd is a wonderboy & had been doing great things in his time at HP / were putting the wheels in motion to take them to the next level before the bogus sexual harassment / personal expenses scandel that the NYT, I believe, investigated a few months after he left, and found there really was nothing to the accusations & certainly did not rise to the level of justifying his sacking in their opinion.

    Leo came in & decided he wanted to divest HP of its hardware business bc of his background, which is a 180 of previous plans. He didnt see the value of incorp. enterprise w/ it & the fact there are already stiff & well established competitors there with a huge headstart & HP would lose a selling point by dropping HW support & have little to leverage in gaining true market share. Not to mention the talk of Leo appointing a couple cronies of his to the HP board.

    If HP wants to succeed it needed to maintain its HW dominance, and in this day & age that meant expanding to support tablets & mobile bc the laptop, pc era is dwindling just like the desktop has before. Changing HP & dropping HW would mean they would become just an also ran if they became a software / solutions company primarily.

    If they dont want to watch the company dwindle quickly they better eat their losses / pride now in the short term & fix this & take advantage of the unplanned jump in the webOS userbase to strike while that window is open. Otherwise, they will simply be choosing to die a slow death & watch the company dwindle from Fortune 500 monster to one of little consequence. The in-roads to pulling an IBM & having to compete with Oracle & the rest are just too steep to think they plausibly can do it & maintain their level of success or influence within the industry.
  19. #119  
    With the reports of not spinning things off hopefully and Meg wanting to make the announcement in October... I'm wondering if she won't try and capitalize on the larger WebOS userbase post-firesale and make a push for getting devices out to market for the holiday season.

    Pre3 are pretty much ready to go, and people have paid upwards of $700 for the ATT & Verizon versions in rare cases. If she gets their act together, they could have a 16/32GB 10" Touchpad, 7" Touchpad Go, ATT & Verizon Pre3 back on the market all together.
    White Z10, Touchpad 16GB [Retired: Pre 3, Pre 2, Pixi Plus, Pre Plus]
    Back on a BlackBerry after 2 1/2 years with WebOS.

    One-step Picasa batch image upload: http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-tou...ecl-webos.html
  20. #120  
    I have not posted here much in the last year or so, just happily going along with my ORIGINAL PalmPre and STILL LOVING IT!

    Its just soo sad, that, a truly better OS , that was not properly funded or marketed from its inception, will just go away, while IOS and Android continue to thrive.

    I have played extensively with both, and can NOT for the life of me (other than the money and marketing blunder) understand how they both thrive, while WEBOS, clearly the superior OS, just flounders away.

    I will keep my Pre till the very end of when I can.. and cry the day I have to leave it behind for some Android device (I simply refuse to to the iphone route)

    **sigh** just sad..
    I have always been a "Phone" person. My love of "Phones" started at an early age. Avatar to the left, is circa 1952, see the sparkle in my lil toddler eyes
    Cell History: Bag Phone, Brick Phone, Various Micro Tacs, Treo's, Centro, the PRE!


    I Pre

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