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  1. #21  
    Hmm, this sounds like a big cluster to me.
  2. NoICon's Avatar
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    #22  
    This hurts my brain. Can anyone nutshell this for me please?
  3. #23  
    I other words, Leo killed what he controls and is trying to move ahead with what he doesn't, so that he can transform HP from looking like Apple to become IBM Jr...

    what a great idea!
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by NoICon View Post
    This hurts my brain. Can anyone nutshell this for me please?
    Acacia owns the foundational patents used by webOS. Palm has a license to use Acacia's patents in the hardware Palm sells.

    HP can't license webOS to other hardware makers without first getting an extended license from Acacia. But many have already gone directly to Acacia.
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 09/03/2011 at 11:22 AM.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I other words, Leo killed what he controls and is trying to move ahead with what he doesn't, so that he can transform HP from looking like Apple to become IBM Jr...

    what a great idea!
    ^^ this
  6. #26  
    whatever Leo wants to do is ok, if he wants to gointo corporation and have nothing to do w PC hardware that is ok. But to go out and publicly say we stop everything before even a deal is established, is like taking a knife and jumping on it.
    If this helped you hit thanks.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by jboucicaut View Post
    I sent this in to P/C as a tip when the article was published. Very interesting stuff indeed.
    I sent it in too but that was just one article. I researched and found it was the tip of the iceberg that I put in the opening post.

    Here is the link to the opening post with all the details:

    Code:
    http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=3101268
    Here is the PreCentral tip us link.
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 08/27/2011 at 08:18 AM.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Acacia owns the foundational patents used by webOS.
    I don't think we know what the actual patents Acacia owns are, but to me this sounds like an exaggeration that Acacia is happy to spread, because they want more licensees / $. Yes, Acacia seems to own some of the PalmSource patents, but they're a patent troll, this is what they do. They buy patents, drum up their importance, and hope for licensing to prevent long drawn-out court battles. webOS was designed by scratch and has little in common with PalmOS / Garnet (much to the chagrin of some users here).

    Moreover, I'd imagine that most of the really important stuff with regards to smartphones is owned by Palm and HP anyway. I mean, if you think about it, all of the major developments happened after the PalmOne/PalmSource split, and most of them happened at Handspring, which PalmOne (which became Palm again, which HP now owns IP for). I mean Handspring invented the VisorPhone and then the Treo (arguably the first smartphones), and HP now owns that. They had to modify the original PalmSource-owned software to accommodate the phone features.

    In other words, I'm sure there are some valid patents that Acacia holds but compared to the IP that HP now holds from Palm, it's nothing.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    I don't think we know what the actual patents Acacia owns are, but to me this sounds like an exaggeration that Acacia is happy to spread, because they want more licensees / $. Yes, Acacia seems to own some of the PalmSource patents, but they're a patent troll, this is what they do. They buy patents, drum up their importance, and hope for licensing to prevent long drawn-out court battles. webOS was designed by scratch and has little in common with PalmOS / Garnet (much to the chagrin of some users here).

    Moreover, I'd imagine that most of the really important stuff with regards to smartphones is owned by Palm and HP anyway. I mean, if you think about it, all of the major developments happened after the PalmOne/PalmSource split, and most of them happened at Handspring, which PalmOne (which became Palm again, which HP now owns IP for). I mean Handspring invented the VisorPhone and then the Treo (arguably the first smartphones), and HP now owns that. They had to modify the original PalmSource-owned software to accommodate the phone features.

    In other words, I'm sure there are some valid patents that Acacia holds but compared to the IP that HP now holds from Palm, it's nothing.
    what are your sources? What are you basing this on?
    If this helped you hit thanks.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by kkhanmd View Post
    what are your sources? What are you basing this on?
    Examples of Acacia's patent trolling? Look through their press releases section.

    The rest? Logic and history. The original article says that they bought PalmSource patents from Access. At the time Palm split into PalmOne and PalmSource, Handspring was still a separate company pumping out the Treo line, so all the smartphone patents belonged to them. PalmOne built the hardware for the Tungstens and standalone PDAs only, so I'd imagine that the hardware patents for the PDAs went to PalmOne.

    PalmSource had full control of the PalmOS operating system (which is why they changed the name of it to Garnet.) Logically, it seems that since Access bought PalmSource, and Acacia owns patents from PalmSource, that patents they hold are only software related dating to PalmOS PDAs.

    Handspring, the maker of the Visor PDA line, and then the VisorPhone smartphone attachment, and the Treo 90 through 600 was a separate company at the time. After the Treo 600 and before the 650, PalmOne did purchase Handspring, but since PalmOne and PalmSource had already split, there's no way Acacia has the rights to any of that. Since PalmOne became Palm again, and Palm was purchased by HP, we know with 100% certainty that none of the smartphone patents belong to Acacia.

    So logically, it seems that we can say that Acacia's patents are related to software (like they say) dating back to the PDAs. The rest is guesswork. Their website doesn't actually say much about their patent portfolio, but it does specifically mention device syncing, so sounds likely they own patents on HotSync. Other than that, it's just guesswork, but considering that no modern smartphone operating system has anything in common with the guts of Garnet, it seems very likely that it is user interface related.
    Last edited by jhoff80; 08/27/2011 at 04:48 PM.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    In other words, I'm sure there are some valid patents that Acacia holds but compared to the IP that HP now holds from Palm, it's nothing.
    Do you remember days of bidding during Palm's buyout, you know... companies A, B, C, D, E signing NDA and browsing Palm's business books, and one company even not signing NDA...? Well, it was strange to me some companies walked out without bidding at all. Now I can assume it was because IP they were after, but apparently Palm wasn't holding rights on needed patents. Also, price of $1.2 billion is small for godfathers of smartphones, or at least smartphones in US.
    Last edited by chalx; 08/27/2011 at 04:50 PM.
  12. #32  
    God ... so many information about Palm history in just one post!!!

    My eyes hurt !!!
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I other words, Leo killed what he controls and is trying to move ahead with what he doesn't, so that he can transform HP from looking like Apple to become IBM Jr...

    what a great idea!
    ^^this sums it up.

    This is why HP can't license webOS.

    This is why the other bidders for Palm dropped out.

    Patents is why Motorola patents were worth 12.5B.
  14. methods's Avatar
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    #34  
    the question i wanna know... who really has control/ownership of webOS?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Examples of Acacia's patent trolling? Look through their press releases section.

    The rest? Logic and history. The original article says that they bought PalmSource patents from Access. At the time Palm split into PalmOne and PalmSource, Handspring was still a separate company pumping out the Treo line, so all the smartphone patents belonged to them. PalmOne built the hardware for the Tungstens and standalone PDAs only, so I'd imagine that the hardware patents for the PDAs went to PalmOne.

    PalmSource had full control of the PalmOS operating system (which is why they changed the name of it to Garnet.) Logically, it seems that since Access bought PalmSource, and Acacia owns patents from PalmSource, that patents they hold are only software related dating to PalmOS PDAs.

    Handspring, the maker of the Visor PDA line, and then the VisorPhone smartphone attachment, and the Treo 90 through 600 was a separate company at the time. After the Treo 600 and before the 650, PalmOne did purchase Handspring, but since PalmOne and PalmSource had already split, there's no way Acacia has the rights to any of that. Since PalmOne became Palm again, and Palm was purchased by HP, we know with 100% certainty that none of the smartphone patents belong to Acacia.

    So logically, it seems that we can say that Acacia's patents are related to software (like they say) dating back to the PDAs. The rest is guesswork. Their website doesn't actually say much about their patent portfolio, but it does specifically mention device syncing, so sounds likely they own patents on HotSync. Other than that, it's just guesswork, but considering that no modern smartphone operating system has anything in common with the guts of Garnet, it seems very likely that it is user interface related.
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Acacia owns the foundational patents used by webOS. Palm has a license to use Acacia's patents in the hardware Palm sells.

    HP can't license webOS to other hardware makers without first getting an extended license from Acacia. But many have already gone directly to Acacia.
    So the summary of all this is, most webOS patents are held by acacia, while most hardware patents are held by Palm. So a lot of webOS belongs to acacia, or atleast a lot of good patents before webOS came along belong to acacia, while pre and TP hardware belong to Palm or H/P. So in short the crappy hardware belongs to webOS while webOS itself belongs to acacia. Thats why when my centro loads, it flashes "access" screen, as the software doesnot belong to it only the hardware
    If this helped you hit thanks.
  16. #36  
    To what extent is webOS built on, or derived from, Palm OS (including Palm's related system components and built-in apps)? The answer to that question determines who really owns webOS.
    - Bubba
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHooska View Post
    To what extent is webOS built on, or derived from, Palm OS (including Palm's related system components and built-in apps)? The answer to that question determines who really owns webOS.
    ALl it means is webOS doesnot have many patents from palm OS. Those patents are gold against Apple and they are held by acacia, without them webOS is probably worth less than half a billion
    If this helped you hit thanks.
    milominderbinde likes this.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    ... At the time Palm split into PalmOne and PalmSource, Handspring was still a separate company pumping out the Treo line, so all the smartphone patents belonged to them. ...
    Maybe it seemed like the spinoff happened before the acquisition, but behind the scenes Palm coordinated both to happen at once. Palm and Handspring entered into a Reorganization Agreement on June 4, 2003. Palm-Handsrping Reorg Agreement. That agreement treated both the Handspring acquisition and the PalmSource spinoff as two parts of one big plan.

    The PalmSource spinoff and the Handspring acquisition were both approved ay shareholders and completed on October 28, 2003. Palm (now HP) Press Release.
    - Bubba
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by kkhanmd View Post
    ... Those patents are gold against Apple and ... without them webOS is probably worth less than half a billion.
    When HP bought Palm, they allocated the purchase price as follows:
    Goodwill - $879 million
    In Progress R&D - $80 million
    Intangible Assets - $344 million

    So they valued webOS, including the portions still in development, at $424 million, or less. And they valued customer goodwill, etc., at almost a $Billion.

    I think they could still get $400 million, give or take, for webOS. Call me a pessimist, but customer goodwill might be a tougher sell this time around.
    - Bubba
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHooska View Post
    When HP bought Palm, they allocated the purchase price as follows:
    Goodwill - $879 million
    In Progress R&D - $80 million
    Intangible Assets - $344 million

    So they valued webOS, including the portions still in development, at $424 million, or less. And they valued customer goodwill, etc., at almost a $Billion.

    I think they could still get $400 million, give or take, for webOS. Call me a pessimist, but customer goodwill might be a tougher sell this time around.
    exactly my point, 400 million is less than a half a billion as mentioned in my earlier post
    If this helped you hit thanks.
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