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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Did anyone really think the TouchPad would stay at the $499 price point?
    Of course not, but certainly not $399 and $299 this soon. I waited a few weeks and bought one for $440 thinking it would be awhile before they are discounted further. I was wrong. In hindsight, the TP is not that much to me. $399 or less would have been better knowing then what I know now of how it works. I would have highly preferred to get from the current sale. I had no reason to expect this type of aggressive discount so soon.
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    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by subversiveasset View Post
    HP's model is different from Apple's...have no doubts about it. It's lower-margin where Apple's is high-margin, and it relies on planned price discrimination/price skimming.

    Put it this way...HP knows that the market is full of people along the demand curve...people who are more or less willing and able to get their products (like the TouchPad). They know further that they have some purchasers who are inelastic (or, put in another way, *inflexible* with respect to price changes), and others who are not.

    So, people like hardcore webOS users on PreCentral, because they *have to have* the TouchPad, will buy it at the higher MSRP. But HP ain't no fools; they capture those other people who don't "have to have it" that moment by skimming the price strategically -- people view the TouchPad as similarly priced to the iPad because of MSRP, and so any discounts are an extreme value proposition, whereas for HP, it's just a matter of cutting the margins down (and since it is very used to low margins, this isn't a big deal for it.)

    Maybe price discrimination upsets you. But then, the issue is that you're an economic actor who can make your own decisions. If you "wait" instead of being an early adopter, you're playing the game more effectively. If not, you're still playing the game.
    Good Synopsis... not sure I agree 100%, but some reasonable points
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by subversiveasset View Post
    HP's model is different from Apple's...have no doubts about it. It's lower-margin where Apple's is high-margin, and it relies on planned price discrimination/price skimming.

    Put it this way...HP knows that the market is full of people along the demand curve...people who are more or less willing and able to get their products (like the TouchPad). They know further that they have some purchasers who are inelastic (or, put in another way, *inflexible* with respect to price changes), and others who are not.

    So, people like hardcore webOS users on PreCentral, because they *have to have* the TouchPad, will buy it at the higher MSRP. But HP ain't no fools; they capture those other people who don't "have to have it" that moment by skimming the price strategically -- people view the TouchPad as similarly priced to the iPad because of MSRP, and so any discounts are an extreme value proposition, whereas for HP, it's just a matter of cutting the margins down (and since it is very used to low margins, this isn't a big deal for it.)

    Maybe price discrimination upsets you. But then, the issue is that you're an economic actor who can make your own decisions. If you "wait" instead of being an early adopter, you're playing the game more effectively. If not, you're still playing the game.
    After reading posts in this thread over the past couple of days, I feel like I'm in an economics class again.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by genearch View Post
    Business 101... Discounting cheapens the brand...
    You found two bloggers who say discounting is bad. One blogger is famous enough to go just by her first name, "Gabriella."

    They contend that sales and discounts anger previous customers, cheapen brands, and set the expectation of future discounts.

    Macy's and Nordstrom's should not discount clothes at the end of the season. DSW is doomed. Car makers must not discount last years model when the new model comes out.

    Apple should not discount previous iPhones or iPads when the new models come out. HP must always charge the same price for a computer no matter how old it is.

    In Gabriella's world, customers are only happy if they pay full price. Black Friday, Amazon, Fry's, and WalMart failed miserably

    In our world merchants have been discounting since before written history. The merchants who find the ways to discount the most and the quickest win. WalMart and Fry's thrive.

    In the real world Staples is selling every TouchPad anyone can find at $299.
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 08/06/2011 at 02:47 PM.
    LCGuy, RoverNole, gbp and 1 others like this.
  5. #85  
    milominderbinder;

    Well stated.

    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

    milominderbinde likes this.
  6. #86  
    I'm both an early adopter *and* a bargain hunter, depending on the circumstances. For most products and services, I tend to be an "opportunistic shopper" - I keep a fairly high awareness of current market value for things I might like to purchase, and then jump on particularly good deals when they appear.

    My "early adopter" side, though, is frequently based more on technology evangelism than simple "bang for the buck." I consider it almost like small-scale venture capital, if you will - putting money behind new things I believe in, in the hope that I can help them succeed - because their long-term success makes them *more* useful and valuable to me.

    I recall getting a "great deal" on Sony's second DVD player they released, because it was "only" $600, compared to their $1000 flagship model. This was at a time when DVD was still an unproven format on shaky ground, and being threatened by (what many of us considered) ugly alternatives like Circuit City's DiVX format (hit Wikipedia for a history lesson, young'uns). I was willing to "bet" on DVD's success because I considered it superior to its competitors, and encouraging its growth would ultimately benefit me if it succeeded - in terms of content availability, lower prices, etc., etc. So no, I don't get ticked off that my $600 DVD player would cost maybe $30 (if that!) today - instead, I look proudly at what my early-adopter "venture capital" helped create.

    I think HP is doing a fine job with TouchPad pricing and discounts at this stage of the game - I think there are plenty of people that are eager to buy in to the webOS experience, but need the extra push of getting a "good deal." I think the couple of "early adopter" rebates and credits that HP has offered were a nice gesture, and I don't begrudge them the need to increase sales volume with heavy discounts. People should note that HP hasn't dropped the *MSRP* on the TouchPad - they're using special limited-time sales, rebates, etc. to *maintain* MSRP parity with the iPad 2, etc., while making the TouchPad seem like a relative "steal" compared to Apple's rigid lack of discount pricing. As I like to say regarding my own bargain-hunting, "I don't like buying cheap stuff, I like buying *nice* stuff, cheap."

    In short, HP's huge size and resources are exactly what we lamented Palm was missing - the only way to create a successful, Apple-like ecosystem around webOS is to obtain millions of users, as quickly as possible. I'm all in favor of HP pricing webOS devices like the TouchPad so aggressively that they're *losing* money on every sale for a while, in order to build a "critical mass" of webOS users ASAP and increase the chances of long-term success and profitability. It appears to me that this is exactly what HP is trying to do, and based on this weekend's discount "feeding frenzy" at Staples, etc., I think it might actually work. This is what HP "throwing their weight around" looks like, folks, and I'm eager to see them doing it.

    --John
    Last edited by jbennett; 08/06/2011 at 07:14 PM.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by observator View Post
    Of course not, but certainly not $399 and $299 this soon. I waited a few weeks and bought one for $440 thinking it would be awhile before they are discounted further. I was wrong. In hindsight, the TP is not that much to me. $399 or less would have been better knowing then what I know now of how it works. I would have highly preferred to get from the current sale. I had no reason to expect this type of aggressive discount so soon.
    And now you get $50 in apps that those that waited didn't get. That brings your net down to $390, $9 less than the "wait and see" folks.

    Happy again?
  8. #88  
    Dat right dere
    \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    In the real world Staples is selling every TouchPad anyone can find at $299.
    /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
  9. #89  
    Oh, and dat right dere too
    \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
    Quote Originally Posted by jbennett View Post
    In short, HP's huge size and resources are exactly what we lamented Palm was missing - the only way to create a successful, Apple-like ecosystem around webOS is to obtain millions of users, as quickly as possible. I'm all in favor of HP pricing webOS devices like the Touchpad so aggressively that they're *losing* money on every sale for a while, in order to build a "critical mass" of webOS users ASAP and increase the chances of long-term success and profitability. It appears to me that this is exactly what HP is trying to do, and based on this weekend's discount "feeding frenzy" at Staples, etc., I think it might actually work. This is what HP "throwing their weight around" looks like, folks, and I'm eager to see them doing it.

    --John
    /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
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    #90  
    I'll state again. It's not like any strategy by US companies has been the be all end all. Look out the window, they are not doing so hot. So discount or not, HP nor can anyone commenting surely say it was the right move.
    Palm III -> Treo 90 -> Treo 650 -> Motorola Q -> Treo 755p -> Pixi -> Sprint FrankenPixi+ -> Blackberry Bold 9930
  11. #91  
    i remember when people called sega stupid for selling there nba 2k game for $20 when going up against nba Live, EA's $60 reigning champion.

    long story short, sega didn't outsell EA that year. But the next year the race was much closer and many people started to see 2k as the superior franchise. Last year, EA scrapped the live franchise all together. we have a new champion nba 2k.

    at the end of the day this IS a marathon. HP is pacing themselves well. the Touchpad launch price was 499/599 just so that they could call it a sale when they lowered it. This round is all about getting the touchpad into as many hands as possible. This is 2K at $20. Now people are talking about the Touchpad. people are talking about webOS. 2 weeks ago, if it wasnt android or apple, it didnt exist.
  12. gbp
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by genearch View Post
    Why would I need an "answer"... they rarely discount and when they dropped the price in an "out of normal" date range, they made good by their base.

    Where's the debate?

    Discounting 20-40% within 35 days of a new product release comes off as desperate to move units.

    It hasn't been good news up to this point, but if they move a few units, it may make things appear better than they really are
    chill out.
    The older iPhone are selling for $ 9.99
    iPod Touch is practically going nowhere.
    The original iPad is now going for $ 329.99.

    Perhaps you need to who a particular website that sells Apple stuff for cheap.
    Laptops, Cell Phones, Video Games, Cameras, Computers - CowBoom.com

    Its neither HP's fault nor Apples. Its business 101.
    Companies get rid of their stock if they have
    a.slow selling product
    b.something new in the pipeline

    In HP's case they are up against Android and Apple. They have to get their products to more customers. This is the only way.
    Last edited by gbp; 08/06/2011 at 10:36 PM.
  13. gbp
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    #93  
    In addition, HP will be pleased with the cash flow. It might be a loss or break-even, but its better than not selling. I can clearly see that more and more people are getting a taste of webOS.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by observator View Post
    Of course not, but certainly not $399 and $299 this soon. I waited a few weeks and bought one for $440 thinking it would be awhile before they are discounted further. I was wrong. In hindsight, the TP is not that much to me. $399 or less would have been better knowing then what I know now of how it works. I would have highly preferred to get from the current sale. I had no reason to expect this type of aggressive discount so soon.
    Why are you still QQing? HP's already said they're providing a $50 app catalog credit for the "early adopters."
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    The problem is this strategy of clearing out TouchPad stock at rock bottom prices is directly at odds with what Leo has been saying about not tolerating unprofitable ventures at HP. It kinda makes you wonder how this affects the second generation webOS tablet.
    So, will this be the new doomsayer anthem, that this is a harbinger for a discontinued line?

    This is HP's standard approach. Folks were told this when they were complaining about the intro price; but some of us aren't surprised.

    Units are selling, buzz is getting louder, and no doubt the iPhans will have more dire predictions as they get more crowded than they're used to.
  16. gbp
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post

    it lacks the features of the current crop at the higher price... it should have came out and competed with the ipad1. it still has bugs to work out and there is a serious lack of apps that they need time to build up.

    heck hp is releasing a 3G tablet this quarter with a bumped up processor so this one is gonna be perceived as even more dated.

    so sell it at a discount, take the loss for one year to get major volume out. for $100 or $200 less you see people that were sitting on the fence jump and take a chance. sell in volume and get the word out.

    next year when gen2 comes out and it has the bumped up processor and a rear camera and gps and hdout, gotten thinner like the competition and the app store has built up and webos word has gotten around because of all the tp sold at discount, they can sell that one at the higher price.
    +1
    Yup, get the word out. Discount is good.
  17. #97  
    Regarding tablets in the enterprise, I hardly think FruitCo has much traction there.

    I work at a company with 12-15K employees, we MIGHT have a half-dozen to a dozen iPads, and almost all are personally-owned.

    The real meat, is the Motion Computing tablets, dozens upon dozens of Toshiba tablets, the Dell tablets, etc... in other words, a real OS - not Android, certainly not iOS, and not WebOS.

    Personally, in my house, there's (2) iPhone 4s, (2) Captivates, and I have the Palm Pre+, as well as a Motorola Backflip (yea - I know), and will probably get a Galaxy S II real soon - the unlocked one with AT&T bands, not an AT&T-mangled one. Pre 3? Maybe - I NEED a SIP client in order to 100% switch.

    On the tablet front, we have an iPad, iPad2, and now my Transformer (and probably a TouchPad before the weekend is out), as well as a few older Motion, Toshiba, and Dell tablets, so I've played with a few devices.

    Would I play at home with a Windows Tablet? Um, no - most are too big, too heavy, too bulky, and just suck as tablets. iPad/iPad2? Sorry - alot of sites I go to use flash, so I'm screwed on iOS. Hate the lack of video codec support, and having to use iTunes, etc... In other words, I hate being locked into that little fruit box. Transformer with Android 3.2 works great, but I also wouldn't use it for much at work, except surfing, and maybe to RDP into a VM/server.

    Everyone keeps whining about the discounting, but it's for a WEEKEND! This.Is.HPs.Business.Model.
    They all do it - Dell, HP, Toshiba, Lenovo - it's SOP for the business.
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  18. gbp
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    #98  
    I would simply say HP knows how to sell. Palm doesn't.
    This discount is not good, great. We all know why this is great when we see market research stats on mobile platforms from Gartner or Comscore for the next time around.
  19. gbp
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkonwheels View Post

    Everyone keeps whining about the discounting, but it's for a WEEKEND! This.Is.HPs.Business.Model.
    They all do it - Dell, HP, Toshiba, Lenovo - it's SOP for the business.
    Yup.
    Folks might not followed HP for long to know how they have been doing this for years. The ENVY series laptop is a good example. The price for these has been fluctuating $100.00 to $200.00 for the last six months. And its one of their most sold laptop model.
  20. #100  
    Same with my XPS laptops - not to mention the sly tricks they play, especially Dell.

    All the crap of "Market Price" and discounts off that.

    It's a game they all play.

    Apple should feel privileged, and be VERY CAREFUL in how they play their games, and treat their customer, as they are fortunate to be able to pawn $350 worth of garbage laptop to their sheep for $999 for the entry-level machines.
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