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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    What this shows me is that there are a bunch of dumb a**** out there giving Apple a market cap of $346B on just around $64B per year of revenue versus giving HP a market cap of $68B with revenues of $126B. Tells me there are some seriously stupid people who WAY over value Apple and WAY undervalue HP, the much larger company raking in twice as much revenue. HP's model is more akin to the Walmart volume of doing it on modest margins versus the Apple screw you over with high gross profits model. The ONLY reason Apple can do this well with that model is because they have a very, very, very loyal following of people who will always buy their latest product, even when what they have still works great. Apple's core buyers also tend to have more pocket money.

    Your whole premise basically wrong. HP has been using this model for decades and is one of the largest companies on the planet.
    Great job here!

    You musta read the same article I did yesterday.....op should read it before putting more foot in his mouth: THE CRASH IN CONTEXT: Stocks Are Still ~30% Overvalued
    @agentmock

    Audiovox SMT5600 (WM) --> Cingular 8125 (WM) --> Sprint Mogul 8525 (WM) --> Palm Pre (webOS)- --> Sprint Franken Pre2 (webOS) + 32gb Touchpad (webOS)
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by 65fastback View Post
    Great job here!

    You musta read the same article I did yesterday.....op should read it before putting more foot in his mouth: THE CRASH IN CONTEXT: Stocks Are Still ~30% Overvalued
    What's even funnier is that he notes all of that cash Apple has on hand, which means Apple is hording their profits and not even sharing it all with stockholders! Talk about a fricken rip-off! People are making money on Apple stock because of it getting so heavily overvalued. When I look at the current price of their stock...I shake my head. Apple is the real darling of the press and that helps their stock tremendously.

    The one thing that HP has going in this tablet market is their branding, which ranks well above almost everyone else as a brand that people would want to buy a tablet from. Them and Dell are number 2, a chunk behind Apple. Most of the core Android players, save Samsung, are way behind, which points to why their tablets aren't selling (Motorola is in this group).
    65fastback and 11B1P like this.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    What's even funnier is that he notes all of that cash Apple has on hand, which means Apple is hording their profits and not even sharing it all with stockholders! Talk about a fricken rip-off! People are making money on Apple stock because of it getting so heavily overvalued. When I look at the current price of their stock...I shake my head. Apple is the real darling of the press and that helps their stock tremendously.

    The one thing that HP has going in this tablet market is their branding, which ranks well above almost everyone else as a brand that people would want to buy a tablet from. Them and Dell are number 2, a chunk behind Apple. Most of the core Android players, save Samsung, are way behind, which points to why their tablets aren't selling (Motorola is in this group).
    I disagree - Apple wins with branding. Because they're cool. For consumer electronics, Apple rulez. Hammer smashing into movie theater IBM stuff.. etc

    What we're seeing is the Tablet moving beyond hipsters with cool devices - tabs can actually be useful in the enterprise. And who owns the enterprise? Not Apple..
  4. #64  
    Let's get back to the TouchPad. After all, this is a TouchPad forum. Enough with the stock prices and pseudo-analysis. Thanks.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by blinktreo View Post
    What we're seeing is the Tablet moving beyond hipsters with cool devices - tabs can actually be useful in the enterprise. And who owns the enterprise? Not Apple..
    Do you think the Touchpad is currently better suited? If so, why? Right now the iPad is selling into businesses quite well. It accounts for 90% of all tablets being purchased, especially strong in medical and (I think) legal.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    ... Hell, one guy is Photoshopping the picture of a ZDNet writer that dared to criticize webOS.

    It's pretty poor form, in my opinion.
    Since you brought up "poor form", let's be a little more transparent about the ZDNet write-up, and what folks were upset about.

    First of all, his article was not really a criticism of webOS, it was more a criticism of HP, and their "use" of the homebrew community.

    What has people up in arms was the writer's assertion that there were "under the table" deals between HP and WebOSInternals - though he later redacted, but never retracted, the term. He left statements that HP was somehow dishonestly "using" the webOS homebrew community as part of their engineering team, with strong implications that there was quid-pro-quo going on between HP and WebOSInternals.

    In that scenario, I don't think a mock-up of the author eating with Bill Gates (I think that was the proposed Photoshop) is any more "poor form" than the author making up (and publishing) falsehoods about "under the table" deals between HP and individuals in the webOS Homebrew community.

    One difference though, the photoshop guy is making it clear it's a mockup, not pretending to report something as fact.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by jtfolden View Post
    Do you think the Touchpad is currently better suited? If so, why? Right now the iPad is selling into businesses quite well. It accounts for 90% of all tablets being purchased, especially strong in medical and (I think) legal.
    Personally, I don't think the TouchPad is more suited than the iPad. Frankly, I don't think either one of them is currently very well suited.

    But, I think HP is more suited to insert a tablet into the enterprise than Apple is. I could give lots of reasons (and historical perspective), but that would really take this off-topic. Open another thread, and I'd be more than happy to expound.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    In that scenario, I don't think a mock-up of the author eating with Bill Gates (I think that was the proposed Photoshop) is any more "poor form" than the author making up (and publishing) falsehoods about "under the table" deals between HP and individuals in the webOS Homebrew community.

    One difference though, the photoshop guy is making it clear it's a mockup, not pretending to report something as fact.
    For those who are aware of it, in the whole of the last century, up until about the 1980's, when people actually depended heavily on their newspapers for news, entertainment and other relevant information local and global, such artisitic expressions were called "caracatures",and they were usually hand drawn and shaded in comic-strip style.

    More often than not, they were politically inspired.

    Wikipedia defines a characature as:

    "A caricature is a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness. In literature, a caricature is a description of a person using exaggeration of some characteristics and oversimplification of others"

    I'd say that based on the above definition, which appears to be very close to the Webster's Dictionary definition, that the photoshopped image is a well thought out example of a modern day caracature based on Perlow and his blog/factless rant.

    I, personally, agree with the caracature's message, as well.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

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  9. cgk
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    #69  
    It's swings and roundabouts with discounting - without users, you don't have an ecology - *however* you can also end up with lots of low-spending low-value users who don't buy apps (This plagued the Centro line, it brought in a lot of new users to Palm OS but they didn't buy apps and Android has similar problems).

    Time will tell if this will be different - however, without users actually having tablets in their hands that people see and talk about, then how do you create any sort of buzz?

    In the UK, I've never seen a Palm Pre, I've never heard anyone talk about the Palm Pre (and I work in and research mobility!) - it has no buzz. Without shifting units, the Touchpad will be the same.
    Last edited by CGK; 08/06/2011 at 07:54 AM.
  10. #70  
    The topic here is whether discounting the TouchPad is a good idea. Let's stick to please. Thanks.

    <<thread cleaned>>
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    It's swings and roundabouts with discounting - without users, you don't have an ecology - *however* you can also end up with lots of low-spending low-value users who don't buy apps (This plagued the Centro line, it brought in a lot of new users to Palm OS but they didn't buy apps and Android has similar problems).

    Time will tell if this will be different.
    WebOS's main problem is lack of exposure, as most of the poplulation of the US and the rest of the world never even heard of it. however, the argument can be reasonably made that a large % of those who try it really appreciate it, and prefer it, as it was a run away, 3 title winner at 2009 CES.

    I believe HP sees this, just like Palm did. Palm, unfortunately, wasnt able to deal with this, and, instead, was acquired by HP.

    HP's way of selling their hardware has been policy for many years now. It works for them, in markets they know.

    The "pad" market isnt the same as the "iPad" market; there's demand for an iteration of an "i"-anything, and then there's demand for a pad device that is desired because it works a certain way or another that differs from the "i"-anything devices.

    HP, I sincerely believe, knows that they will not be able to compete with a company that has a blind following like Apple does, however, I do believe that they feel that they have the history and experience to enter and compete in that other "tablet" market and do very well, using their proven, long standing and successful business model: introduce a product, market it, offer enticing discounts periodically (and offer incentives for retailers to do the same thing), so that the product gets the exposure and distrubution, and that's when they "got you".

    My opinion is that, based on my first paragraph above, once many try a WebOS device (as Im sure many HP execs did prior to buying Palm last year), the WebOS club will grow larger and become a significant part of the whole mobile device market.

    Therefore, I completely disagree with the OP's statement, in light of this logic.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  12. cgk
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    #72  
    Based on the numbers, I honestly don't believe there is a tablet market at the moment, there is an ipad market and a murky "other" market of largely also-ran devices. Devices like the touchpad (which it is way too soon to call an also-ran) might turn it into a Tablet market but we'll have to wait and see.

    I'd also agree with Hparsons that at the moment, I don't think that any of those devices are particularly enterprise ready (as in - deployed by an enterprise, rather then bought and used by individual users in an enterprise, which is a different thing).
    Last edited by CGK; 08/06/2011 at 08:12 AM.
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  13. #73  
    discount is a horrible idea

    price should actually be raised to $599 and $699
    @agentmock

    Audiovox SMT5600 (WM) --> Cingular 8125 (WM) --> Sprint Mogul 8525 (WM) --> Palm Pre (webOS)- --> Sprint Franken Pre2 (webOS) + 32gb Touchpad (webOS)
  14. #74  
    i would say discounting it is good right now... I tried to get my buddy to buy showing him the $100-$200 discount and he comes back saying

    "You like that webos eh. I would get the Samsung 10.1 if I was getting anything. With that HP you are just getting an IPad2 without the apps, gps, camera, or HD out."

    this blew my mind cause he's shopping a tablet for his wife which will do light duty on it while he has an ipad2 he got from work and i know and he knows he's not gonna use gps or hd out.

    it lacks the features of the current crop at the higher price... it should have came out and competed with the ipad1. it still has bugs to work out and there is a serious lack of apps that they need time to build up.

    heck hp is releasing a 3G tablet this quarter with a bumped up processor so this one is gonna be perceived as even more dated.

    so sell it at a discount, take the loss for one year to get major volume out. for $100 or $200 less you see people that were sitting on the fence jump and take a chance. sell in volume and get the word out.

    next year when gen2 comes out and it has the bumped up processor and a rear camera and gps and hdout, gotten thinner like the competition and the app store has built up and webos word has gotten around because of all the tp sold at discount, they can sell that one at the higher price.

    Quote Originally Posted by bevcraw View Post
    The topic here is whether discounting the TouchPad is a good idea. Let's stick to please. Thanks.

    <<thread cleaned>>
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by 65fastback View Post
    discount is a horrible idea

    price should actually be raised to $599 and $699
    Yes indeed, that would definitely shock buyers and establish a "super premium" image as some editorial argued.

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  16. #76  
    As a market watcher,and tech-head, I have never faulted Apple for its strategy. Build esthetically pleasing powerful high-end products. I bought the 27" iMac, but did jot buy the iPad or the iphone. I appreciated innovation in Palm's community, and have used Treos and Pres and now the TouchPad for that reason. I think HP is using an altogether different model to market the TP this last week, volume. As an early adopter I don't regret paying a little more for my TP. For me it was part of the cost of getting a device that had the homebrew community attached to it, that I had so come to appreciate with my Pre. I believe the more TPs are sold, the faster the developer will community respond with
    new and useful apps.
    dj ozone likes this.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Based on the numbers, I honestly don't believe there is a tablet market at the moment, there is an ipad market and a murky "other" market of largely also-ran devices. Devices like the touchpad (which it is way too soon to call an also-ran) might turn it into a Tablet market but we'll have to wait and see.

    I'd also agree with Hparsons that at the moment, I don't think that any of those devices are particularly enterprise ready (as in - deployed by an enterprise, rather then bought and used by individual users in an enterprise, which is a different thing).
    Tablet devices are being brought and deployed by the enterprise (not user owned). I will not speculate on how many enterprises or what the numbers are, but a search on the web will show that it is being done.
    Whether they are "enterprise ready" I will leave alone as various people have different opinions on what makes a tablet enterprise ready.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by genearch View Post
    Business 101... Discounting cheapens the brand




    Why discounting is bad for business

    Discount discounting (or why slashing prices can be bad for your business) | Collarways Blog

    #1 You **** off your base (price it right from day 1)
    #2 You cheapen the brand perception (Who will buy TP2 on launch day?)
    #3 You build expectation of future discounts and put buyers in a holding pattern.

    Not a good move. The early adopter discount was acceptable, but selling on sites like Woot after a month? Desperation. What's next? Home Shopping Channel?
    HP needs to get people to notice and buy TP which will help build our own ecosystem down the road. When u are a late comer, you don't have a choice. Amazon makes 2 cents on every dollar of sale. It wants to build its own ecosystem. Once it is in place, all the investment will pay off as profits will ramp up exponentially.

    I agree there is no free lunch. Some people will hold back. I won't rush out to by newer version of TP on the first day knowing how the prices went down of the current TP. (Luckily, I managed to get all the discounts as I kept going back and adjusting the purchase price without actually returning the device.) But if the product and service is good, people will come eventually. So not worried about this as much.
    Sent via HP TouchPad using Forums
  19. #79  
    same bad taste i had as an early adopter for the pre-, its a chance you take. i waited for my laptop to drop in price it was originally 1800 can.. i got it for 800 canadian..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  20. #80  
    HP's model is different from Apple's...have no doubts about it. It's lower-margin where Apple's is high-margin, and it relies on planned price discrimination/price skimming.

    Put it this way...HP knows that the market is full of people along the demand curve...people who are more or less willing and able to get their products (like the TouchPad). They know further that they have some purchasers who are inelastic (or, put in another way, *inflexible* with respect to price changes), and others who are not.

    So, people like hardcore webOS users on PreCentral, because they *have to have* the TouchPad, will buy it at the higher MSRP. But HP ain't no fools; they capture those other people who don't "have to have it" that moment by skimming the price strategically -- people view the TouchPad as similarly priced to the iPad because of MSRP, and so any discounts are an extreme value proposition, whereas for HP, it's just a matter of cutting the margins down (and since it is very used to low margins, this isn't a big deal for it.)

    Maybe price discrimination upsets you. But then, the issue is that you're an economic actor who can make your own decisions. If you "wait" instead of being an early adopter, you're playing the game more effectively. If not, you're still playing the game.
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