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  1. #21  
    you should stop by a Fry's and try a touchsmart pc. Tell me that you don't continuously try to toss cards off the top, back-swipe in the browser, etc.

    the webOS experience is what webOS users like. I can tel you won't buy it. Until apple copies it.

    but there are others that will buy it, even if you tell them its not a big deal.
  2. nyallj's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I guess this is as good a test as any to see if we can discuss and disagree without debate.

    TTS is even less of a mainstream experience with its announced implementation. For it to be useful, you have to be in a situation where you cannot use your TP, so you are surfing the web on a Pre 3 or Veer. Let's just say a Pre 3. Then, you move into a situation where you can use your TP. First, I don't surf the web on a phone screen to begin with. If I am doing that on my way home, I would simply continue browsing on my computer monitor, not my pad. It requires a very niche set of circumstances for this to be useful to very few people.
    Ever tried taking your PC in the toilet, or to bed, with you?
    NNJ
  3. #23  
    ok, the OP thinks HP can create demand for a unique experience.

    you don't.

    nothing else needs to be said.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I think it's safe to say that more than 95% of mobile device users don't look for a gesture area or try to toss cards off the top of the screen. It's not a selling point to them.
    Ironically, that is the one gesture I wish was available in iOS. I disagree with SJ that an app manager is an automatic fail. I think it is good not to have to manage apps for novice users. But I, for one, would love to be able to quickly close apps. I am not fond of the iOS way of doing it.
  5. #25  
    I will try to discuss each point without debating. This is going to be hard.


    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I guess this is as good a test as any to see if we can discuss and disagree without debate.

    How does HP sell Synergy as a unique experience? In iOS, practically every app is interoperable with Twitter, Facebook, Flickr, and YouTube when applicable. Android has similar, if not better integration. In order for the WebOS experience to be sellable, it has to be unique. I don't know that it is. Here's the test. Give your best description of Synergy to someone. Do their eyes light up, or do they simply shrug? The Synergy as unique feature ship sailed some time ago without a single commercial from Palm.
    Synergy is a very useful feature. Even if it is not unique, it is still nice to know that WebOS can do it and should be an advertising point. It should also be noted that now I think (if I am not mistaken) any developer can tap into Synergy and use it. Thats pretty cool.

    Also, being part of synergy I'd though I would mention the calender. I think it's cool that your facebook calender and work calender will merge together here. And Android people your calender can not do this entirely. My dad still can not get bi-weekly appointments on his calender, and thats pretty important to a business man. Would you like it if your boss forgot to write out your check? I didn't think so. And it is also cool that you can choose only to work at your personal calender or your work. That feature I don't know if other platforms can (please, someone who use the other platforms tell me if you can).

    TTS is even less of a mainstream experience with its announced implementation. For it to be useful, you have to be in a situation where you cannot use your TP, so you are surfing the web on a Pre 3 or Veer. Let's just say a Pre 3. Then, you move into a situation where you can use your TP. It is your TP and not a friend's. First, I don't surf the web on a phone screen to begin with. If I am doing that on my way home, I would simply continue browsing on my computer monitor, not my pad. It requires a very niche set of circumstances for this to be useful to very few people.

    As for other functionality that might come later, you are still only sharing with yourself. Other platforms allow you to share with others. I fail to see the mainstream experience this affords.
    The little tid bit that you don't surf the web using your phone tells me this feature is almost useless for you. The problem is your assuming everyone in the whole entire world is the same (at least thats the impression I got). There are a lot of people who use their phones to surf the web. My dad, my wife, my best friend Dan, myself. I could continue to go on, but you get the picture. Now why would we want to TTS a web page from your phone to your tablet? Or visa versa? Simple. Lets say you only had your phone, okay? But you really wanted to check PreCentral.net forums. You were reading and wanted to reply and it was going to be a long post. You like your Pre 3 keyboard but can tap easier with the TouchPad. Then you come home from wherever you where and instantly TTS that web page to your pad. Now you can type faster and easier with the larger screen.

    Lets use another example. Lets say you started paying your bills on your phone (like my dad does btw). But then you need to look at a few statements and decide a larger screen would be best. Most people would have to go to another device and then manually type the address in and so on. Thats so 2010 yo! Or 2011 if you have an iPhone 5! Ewww! (lol jk). Anyway, with the Pre 3 you simply touch and flick and there ya go. Just re log in and your doing business. Oh snap lets flip it! Lets say you were doing bills on your TouchPad and then your wife says lets go honey. Snap! Why carry the 10 inch device when you can touch touch and flick and get on your mobile Pre 3 and finish paying bills there.

    Lets use another example that is more akin to what you might be doing. Lets say your playing a REALLY cool game. Snap! Your Pre 3 is dieing! BUT YOUR ON THE FINAL LEVEL!! Oh snap! What do you do? Well, since developers can take advantage of synergy now and since you have Tap To Share, you simply touch and flick and there ya go! Start playing your game with the same game data because of synergy!

    Oh snap! I could go on all day. With documents, presentations anything really. TTS can be a very useful feature.

    WebOS in a web browser on a PC? Really? I can't think of any OS I want to run on my desktop other than the one it is running. I can already dual-boot Mac and PC. I can run Chrome OS if I had a mind to do so. I can even run Linux. I can get the full experience of any of these systems on one machine. I fail to see the mainstream appeal of running a truncated version of a mobile OS on a full desktop. Once again, as a sellable, mainstream experience, I don't get it.

    This sounds a lot more negative than I intend it to be. My point was just that WebOS largely squandered any opportunity it had to present as a unique experience. It has not advanced enough. There are fewer bullet points unique to the platform. You can still sell it as a value proposition. As a unique, mainstream experience, it's a lot tougher sell.
    I can not speak of how it will work on a PC because they have failed to give us an example of how it can be useful. So I hold my judgment until I see it in action.
  6. #26  
    "Also, being part of synergy I'd though I would mention the calender. I think it's cool that your facebook calender and work calender will merge together here. And Android people your calender can not do this entirely. My dad still can not get bi-weekly appointments on his calender, and thats pretty important to a business man. Would you like it if your boss forgot to write out your check? I didn't think so. And it is also cool that you can choose only to work at your personal calender or your work. That feature I don't know if other platforms can (please, someone who use the other platforms tell me if you can)."

    I don't know why your father can't get it to work, but synced calendars work all over the place.


    "Lets use another example that is more akin to what you might be doing. Lets say your playing a REALLY cool game. Snap! Your Pre 3 is dieing! BUT YOUR ON THE FINAL LEVEL!! Oh snap! What do you do? Well, since developers can take advantage of synergy now and since you have Tap To Share, you simply touch and flick and there ya go! Start playing your game with the same game data because of synergy!"


    THAT would be awesome. I don't even play games but I can see where that would be a huge selling point.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    I will try to discuss each point without debating. This is going to be hard.
    And a fine job you did, friend astraith. This has certainly been an invigorating, challenging, yet thoughtful, non-combative discussion of differing positions. Time for a group hug.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    And a fine job you did, friend astraith. This has certainly been an invigorating, challenging, yet thoughtful, non-combative discussion of differing positions. Time for a group hug.
    It's the AOL way
  9. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    you should stop by a Fry's and try a touchsmart pc. Tell me that you don't continuously try to toss cards off the top, back-swipe in the browser, etc.
    I think WebOS will be wonderful on PC's like the TouchSmart. It is worlds beyond the TouchSmart interface, which is possibly the best PC touch skin I've seen, and has an entire app environment built around touch input.

    However...

    At this point the amount of PC's that rely on touch input is relatively small. While I'd prefer WebOS over a skin like TouchSmart for a touch screen PC, I'd likely prefer Windows over WebOS on a large monitored traditional PC. And there are more of those out there then touch input at the moment.

    I do think HP can capitalize on selling an experience by pushing TouchSmart PC's along with tablets and phones all using WebOS. I do think that's compelling. But webOS simply being on a traditional style PC isn't in my mind.

    the webOS experience is what webOS users like. I can tel you won't buy it. Until apple copies it.

    but there are others that will buy it, even if you tell them its not a big deal.
    That seems a good bit like debating, suggesting that some people won't like the device until apple copies it. And suggesting that while he may not like it there are people who will so his opinions don't matter.

    More than that, it seems you're intentionally attempting to forge a confrontational argument by making accusations towards the poster that he's biased and will only like things if/when apple copies it.
    Last edited by Zyphlin; 03/16/2011 at 10:36 AM.
  10. #30  
    Palm needs commercials focusing in on each of Jon Rubinstein 2/9/11 Interview with Engadget talking points:

    Jon: First of all, webOS is a better experience -- true multitasking, Synergy, Just Type, OTA updates, the list goes on and on. It's a fundamentally better experience. The whole vision of connected devices... this is just the beginning. Connected devices, web connectivity, delivering unified HP webOS experiences across a variety of devices.
    Take Synergy. Google has never marketed Android Sync. The 100 million Android users take it for granted but there are 5.2 billion who do not have a smartphone.

    If HP Palm gets this right Synergy will do everything that Sync does. It would make a great commercial.

    You might start with some guy, Joe and his phone ringing. We look at the display with Joe to see Jen's Facebook picture and status says "St. Pete was great!".

    ---Phone rings-cutaway to display-Jen's photo and status pop-up
    Joe: "Jen, How was Florida?" (He had forgotten)
    Jen: Great!
    Joe: "You got a lot of sun!" (looking at hot photo-not a vampire!)
    Jen: "Are you coming to the birthday party Friday?"
    Joe: "Sure!" (Taps Calendar to see Facebook event - it is for Ceci at 7.)
    Joe: Want me to pick you guys up about 6:30?
    Jen: Great. See you then.
    --cutaway to Jen and her friends.
    Jen to friends: "When did Joe get so smart?"

    Don't worry about who did it first. Just be the first to show it and they will think you invented it.

    Look at iPhone Voice Controls commercials in 2009. Apple did not invent it but they made it seem like they did.

    If HP Palm advertises Synergy, Just Type, and printing, they will own these features. No one else has ever advertised that they do these things. Palm has to focus on the hardware and software that is coming. They have to sell the experience of what it can be in June.

    Simple, fast, and fun.
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 03/16/2011 at 10:43 AM.
  11. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    Lets use another example that is more akin to what you might be doing. Lets say your playing a REALLY cool game. Snap! Your Pre 3 is dieing! BUT YOUR ON THE FINAL LEVEL!! Oh snap! What do you do? Well, since developers can take advantage of synergy now and since you have Tap To Share, you simply touch and flick and there ya go! Start playing your game with the same game data because of synergy!
    Have they announced this as an actual TTS feature yet and I just missed it? I think TTS is a nice eye catching service with POTENTIAL but one I find little practicality in right now. The only use for it shown so far is for web pages, and that use isn't that much different than if I copied the URL and emailed it to myself. It cuts out a few steps but isn't exactly a game changing idea for me.

    Moving a game over from the exact same place you're paused would be wonderful. Typing up a document on the TouchPad and moving it in progress to the Pre3 to finish off the last line on the go would be great. Watching a movie on the metro on my Pre3 and then putting it at that exact same point in the movie onto my TouchPad when I get home would be wonderful.

    The potential for that is possibly there with TTS. However, there was a lot of potential I saw in the Touchstone when it first came out to...and Palm showed themselves either seemingly unable or unwilling to reach that potential. I'm sorry, but personally I can't judge TTS off of its "potential" but off of what it actually does now based on Palm/HP's history.

    With what its been shown to do NOW, I think it'll be a wonderful feature to catch peoples eyes in store or in Ad's, but I think by and large it is a gimmick of very limited use that does nothing but cut a few steps out for web browsing.
  12. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #32  
    As much as people might see it as ripping off Apple, having a commercial with it primarily being the screen and a voice over would work best for webOS. So much of what makes it special is the visual aspect of it...how much everything flows together and feels natural. And you can't get that when you're not focusing on the phone itself.

    Having a set of commercials each detailing a different "daily routine" type use that highlights 3 to 4 features would be best. That way you're not just showing the feature set but you're showing how the feature set works together which is the strength here.

    The problem with Synergy, and I remember this coming up when it first came out, is its not a simple thing to explain. At least, not to such a level that you really appreciate it and it doesn't seem like what iOS or Android already does. The key would be figuring out how to quickly and consicely explain it with speech and pictures.

    The "Everybody On" commercial wasn't bad for an HP brand focus, but gives me pause to wonder if HP's really going to fix Palms horrendous advertising problem. When the best commerical for your device was a fan created clip then you know your ad team has issues.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by rkev View Post
    Great idea. I'd focus more on Just Type, tho. That's a dynamite feature that still isn't equaled on Apple or Android.
    I like Just Type, but Just Speak would be even better. Android has voice input everywhere. iOS 5 will likely have voice actions of some sort as well. Just type will seem a bit dated by summer, IMO.

    Again, my initial point was that these things needed to be promoted a long time ago when they would have made an impact. Palm should have lead with Synergy. They never marketed it. There should have been a Just type ad a week before the Pre 2 was launched. Nothing. Waiting until all this is trumped by stronger competition is asinine! What were they thinking?
  14. nyallj's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by rkev View Post
    The thing is, we still don't know what this will really look like other than running in a browser. So hard to argue for or against until we do.
    How about using the Touchpad as a digitiser...drawing what you wanted to...Touch To Share...PC accepts into Corel...or Photoshop...or whatever...syncs with the computer...so you can continue making edits using the Touchpad as a digitiser...

    More uses for Touch To Share...right now...the only way to get my ebooks from the PC to my phone...is through a conversion programme and USB connectivity...how awesome it would be for me to be able to Touch to Share what I am reading between devices!
    NNJ
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Right, but I think the research has been done with truly simultaneous stimuli, where the "multitasking" I'm describing is more like very efficient "serial monotasking." Notifications add a true multitasking aspect (in the cognitive sense), but they're fairly unobtrusive and not really competing equally with the main task.

    It's anecdotal, of course, but a great part of the pleasure I experienced is that I *was* being productive, in a setting where that would be difficult otherwise.

    Wait, I was multitasking: Pre use and beer-drinking.
    I had a similar experience on a bus yesterday morning. I was using facebook, reviewing my schedule, responding to e-mail, and sending a text message, all with that seamless flow between activities. The person next to me was so impressed, she actually told me I was doing a lot on the phone, and wanted to know what it was.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    I don't know why your father can't get it to work, but synced calendars work all over the place.
    Let me rephrase what he can't do: He can't create bi-weekly appointments. Google Calender does not allow that.

    And yes, it would be a nice selling point!

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    And a fine job you did, friend astraith. This has certainly been an invigorating, challenging, yet thoughtful, non-combative discussion of differing positions. Time for a group hug.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Have they announced this as an actual TTS feature yet and I just missed it?
    No they haven't announced this is just yet possible, but it could be because the TouchPad is in beta right now and this functionaity isn't smooth yet. I mean, we haven't actually seen the TouchPad have a music player yet. Should we assume that function isn't going to be available?

    However I should clarify: I don't think you would be able to pause the game, and then go from one device to another device at that same spot. However, assuming you saved the game, you should be able to start the game, auto load to the level select and then choose the last level and start from there. And because of synergy, a developer CAN if they choose make where game data is synced. They haven't done this yet, but there hasn't been a reason to until TouchPad (and Synergy being open to developers not until WebOS 2.0 and that was just released in US)

    Gatta go !!!
  17. #37  
    HP needs ads to show the experience. The creepy vampire girl gave us the . What were they thinking?

    This have been better.

    Google shows how easy it is to "Call" , "Text", "Listen", "Email", and "Navigate" without typing. But it's like they brought in the president of the High School Computer Club to tell you about it.

    This BlackBerry Moby **** ad rocks. It makes Just Type, Voice Actions, and Synergy fun. [CrackBerry]

    The fact that we are a bit late to market does not matter. Just advertise the features like you invented them. Make it fun, fast, and simple.

    But whatever they do, don't say the words, "Just Type". That may be the only feature ever named for it's limitation.
  18. Helidos's Avatar
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    #38  
    All this marketing of features, ecosystem etc is great but how do you sell that to a potential buyer when their friends and family are not part of it. Why would the buyer go with the HP ecosystem when everyone they know is part of another ecosystem.

    Will webos TTS work with the prospective buyer's 30 friends/family on other os's? Will webos video chat work across all os's?
    Will the same apps on their friends/family device be available on webos? Etc etc


    This is the mountain HP has to climb IMO. Putting webos on computers is great but how many people are going to use it? Kinda pointless to use, unless you have another webos device to TTS and even that is bleh. Since they are not making it a instant on OS what is it purpose on the PC? Other than to say they have it on millions of devices.

    So imagine I'm looking into buying a new smart phone, sell me on webos. Now keep in mind my 3 best friends have iOS, and a few buddies have android. GO!
  19. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #39  
    The difference between a music player and TTS is that we've seen that a music player is available in WebOS, so while it may not have been shown on the TouchPad its safe to assume it'll be there.

    That's not the same with TTS.

    When we first saw the Touchstone I remember a lot of comments. How cool it'd be to set it on the touchstone and it'd know to sync with your computer if it was near by. Stuff like exhibition mode were things people were asking or theorizing about 2 years ago. The ability for a car touchstone was theorized and never materialized.

    TTS so far sends a URL from one device to another...that's it. Its a neat feature that catches an eye real quick. Its not a game changer in my mind nor amazing in and of itself as far as what we've been told. All it does is take a 5 step process down to 2 steps for web browsing.

    Even with the game, I'd rather a developer be able to save the game data to my palm profile so I can access it on either device rather than touching the two devices together. If you're going to go for synergy, I'd rather it be synergy and not touch to share type stuff.

    I don't discount the potential for Touch to Share and don't blame your enthusiasm. I just think its premature to talk about things that are not even confirmed to be able to be done with a new technology as a "strength" of the product or a compelling reason to buy it. Perhaps if Palm/HP had a history of actually capitalizing quickly on the "potential" of periphials and unique features.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by rkev View Post
    Agree 100 percent. But I am hopeful that this time around, they will expand on Touchstone technology and really trick out both TTS and WebOS on PCs. I mean...if not, why even bother with the whole enterprise?
    I find this very confusing. Everyone seems to be talking about Instant On and Touch Smart, everyone except HP. They are talking about WebOS in a browser on all PCs they ship. That is neither Instant On nor touchscreen. They have a different vision of what it means, and it is not very clear. We are left to invent fantasy scenarios of an experience that does not yet exist.
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