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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I've stayed out of this thread for the most part, but I'm curious, Hparsons....how would you characterize HP's actions? The "L" word (no, not love or lesbians) seems to be a uber-controversial 'round these parts, and I'm guessing you don't find it applicable. Which is totally fine.

    But how would you summarize it? They "confused" their customers? They "misstated" their intentions? They "overpromised"? I'm genuinely interested. Thanks, sir.
    I think every one of those apply.
    A lie is a deliberate mistatement of the facts.
    If they intended to do what they said, then they did not lie.

    That established, if they later found they couldn't do what they said (and by "couldn't", I mean within the realm of reasonable business practices), then the needed to take care of the issue(s).

    They have not yet done so very well.

    Yes, they confused their customers (sounds like they were even confused themselves)
    Yes, they overpromised.
    "Misstated their intentions", I'd agree with except I don't believe they deliberately did so

    Good enough?

    However, I'll add that dandbj13 portrayal of what Lisa/Adora said as her "lying" is both wrong, and wrong of him, and he owes her an apology
    Last edited by hparsons; 02/17/2011 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Maybe "dispicalbe" was too harsh a term.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Nope, I don't think so. She may have been telling the truth as she knew it. HP has many mouths. When they are all saying different things, even if each mouth thinks it is telling the truth, the whole is still lying. I don't know which individuals are responsible for the deception. But the moment they realized they couldn't fulfill their promise and chose not to acknowledge it, they were lying. I don't see how you can get around that.
    You obviously don't know what the term "lie" means. You claimed she continued the lie. She didn't.

    You keep talking about who is responsible for "the deception", but you fail to acknowledge the possibility that there was no deliberate deception.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by 6tr6tr View Post
    See THIS is the crux of the problem. If the Pre 3 was coming out in a week or so (especially on Sprint), no one would be upset. But HP saying first that:

    1. the good stuff was coming in months (this was in 2010)

    2. Extending that into the next year...

    3. Saying we're going to have a big announcement and we'll only announce devices we can have available in weeks

    4. Saying, those devices will be available in about 4 months or so....

    it all makes WebOS users hear, "We have no friggin' clue if these things are ever coming to you, and if so, it might be in a year."
    #4 is incorrect. The Veer is slated for early spring. Other products will fit the "4 months or so".
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think every one of those apply.
    A lie is a deliberate mistatement of the facts.
    If they intended to do what they said, then they did not lie.

    That established, if they later found they couldn't do what they said (and by "couldn't", I mean within the realm of reasonable business practices), then the needed to take care of the issue(s).

    They have not yet done so very well.

    Yes, they confused their customers (sounds like they were even confused themselves)
    Yes, they overpromised.
    "Misstated their intentions", I'd agree with except I don't believe they deliberately did so

    Good enough?

    However, I'll add that dandbj13 portrayal of what Lisa/Adora said as her "lying" is both wrong, and dispicable of him.
    Thanks. Seriously.

    A followup question: Language aside, do you think the effect it's (them misstating, overpromising, etc.) had on WebOS users - as a whole - is significantly different than if they had acted in a matter you would consider lying?
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Thanks. Seriously.

    A followup question: Language aside, do you think the effect it's (them misstating, overpromising, etc.) had on WebOS users - as a whole - is significantly different than if they had acted in a matter you would consider lying?
    I can't speak for WebOS owners as a whole, I'm too small a portion of them.

    However, I can speak for myself.

    Had the promise never been made, it would not have affected me. I look at the timeline of what's happened, and I see that for me, things would have been much the same.

    The statement was made in October. I had said just couple weeks earlier that if I did not hear something substantial by Christmas, I was going to start looking at alternatives.

    Was the statement about 2.0 enough to keep me from looking at alternatives? No. The two had nothing to do with each other. However, by Christmas, I was hearing enough hints about "things to come" (that had nothing to do with WebOS 2.0) and seeing enough promise in the Pre 2, that I was willing to wait a bit longer and see if the Pre 2 (or something else) came along.

    Then we got the announcement about the event. I was hoping for more than we got, but still that has nothing to do with the announcement about 2.0.

    All of that said, the statement was made. Saying I wouldn't have done things differently doesn't take away the disappointment I feel.

    So, I am personally disapponted. I see no reason why the rest of WebOS owners would not be disappointed. However, they have not had something taken away that already had (other than hope); nor have very many had something taken away that they were promised before they bought their device.

    I'm also going to say that I have a strong suspicion that as we get closer to the actual release of the new Veer, and the Pre 3, we're going to hear and see more of what they can do. During that same time period, there will be pirated copies of 2.x floating around in the wild, and some folks out there will eventually be released from their NDA's, and we will more and more about why the decision, though painful and disappointing, might have been warranted.
  6. #146  
    Personally I think they are a very noisy minority who think that HP deliberately lied, and perhaps they will abandon WebOS because of it, but I think the silent majority look at all this noisemaking and roll their eyes.

    Me, my Pixi works as well as it did the day I bought it. Not having WebOS 2.0 on it isn't going to make my Pixi stop working.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I can't speak for WebOS owners as a whole, I'm too small a portion of them.

    However, I can speak for myself.
    ....
    I'm going to follow up with one more thing. When a company makes a mistake; how they handle it speaks volumes (to me) about how I'm going to view that company.

    I'll give you a "today" example. Last Tuesday, I had an ad show on PreCentral for a motorcycle lift for $399 from Harbour Freight. It was driven by Google Ads (I need the lift, and have been googling it from different companies for a couple weeks, looking for a sale). I clicked the link, and the website it tok me to said $499. I went back to P|C, and it said $399. Clicked it, the page said $499.

    Now, a few things to understand. I was in a big hurry. I've been working days and nights since late last year on a project, so my "go get stuff" time is very limited. I also suspected that HF is not required to price match their web site's order page (this is true of a lot of retailers). However, $100 is a $100, and I'm a chepskate, so I figured I'd go ask at the store what was up with the price difference, and would they match.

    I was completely prepared to hear they don't match web specials. I was completely prepared to hear that they had no idea why one ad link said $399, and the actual page said $499. I was not prepared to hear what I eventually did hear.

    So, I went to the store with the web pages printed out. When I got there, the guy that was on duty asked "what's PreCentral". He didn't have a clue about how Google Analytics works. I briefly explained. His response was "I don't know anything about their website, as far as I know, you hacked that page".

    First of all, the idea was silly at its face. What he's talking about is forgery, not "hacking". However, there's a basic premise in the business. Don't accuse your customers of lying and trying to steal without some real reason to do so. There was no real reason to do so here. All he had to do was say "we don't honor website ads", or even "Let me go check with the manager".

    Yes, I was offended. And I told him so. He said he wasn't accusing me of hacking, and I told him that wasn't true, that saying "as far as I know, this is what you did" is an accusation, and left the store. I didn't buy the lift (since it wasn't really on sale), and I didn't buy the air compressor that I saw for $59 and immediately wanted, because I wasn't sure if I was going to be a HF customer any more.

    In the meantime, when I got home, I looked closer at the ad. There was a big yellow banner at the top of the page that in my hurry to get things done, I missed. The lift was $499. The big yellow banner offered a web-only special of 20% off any purchase (with certain limitations). Yeah, that 20% off would have brought the lift to $399. Goofy me. Didn't notice the banner, and didn't notice the "web only" special. Didn't notice it was "today only".

    The next day, I called the manager. Or, I tried to. The manager wasn't there. I'm sure he was either out doing managerial type stuff somewhere else, or had a day off and doing personal stuff. Business or personal, doesn't really matter, he was unable to do anything about it that day.

    I called back today. He apologized for his employee's mistake. He also said that they don't always match website ads, but sometimes do depending on the particular promotion. He also said that even though the ad a website only ad, and was for that day only; I could come in and pick one up for the $399.

    Now, I suppose I could say that they insulted me, and I'm never going back. I could say that should have taken care of it immediately. I could say that $399 is not good enough, since I've now had to make yet another trip out there, and had to suffer the emotional trauma of being insulted and having to go home empty handed, when what I really really really wanted was the motorcycle lift that HF promised me for $399.

    But, I'm not. Instead, I'm going to accept what they offered me, when they could, and thank them for making it right. I'm also going to buy that air compressor.

    I hope HP is going to do as good a job, when I'm ready to buy my next phone, because they have some pretty cool looking stuff coming down the pike.
    Last edited by hparsons; 02/17/2011 at 02:41 PM.
  8. #148  
    Hparsons, your experience is similar to one I was thinking of relaying here to make a similar point. Sometimes companies make mistakes that, up front, are quite big. But, as you would with a person, sometimes you have to allow them the opportunity to correct that mistake. I'm currently waiting on a company that sells circuit card test equipment to "make it right" for me. So far, they've been quite supportive at fixing any issues that might come up, something another similar company did not over the course of years, which is why they didn't get our business this past fiscal quarter.

    I was looking forward to trying 2.x on my Pre+ and Pixi+. But I am more interested in getting my damn dirty paws on the Pre 3. I will wait and see how HP/Palm handle the situation and "make it right". Some here need to at least give them the chance. The whole flash and Docs to Go debacles are issues I blame more on Adobe and Docs to Go. Those companies dragged out the software. Docs to Go tried to blame Palm for not providing the tools, but I think it was more laziness on their part (not seeing enough users sure hurt) and what was probably a lot of talk with RIM before being bought out. Let's just kick back and wait and see how this all goes down.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    Hparsons, your experience is similar to one I was thinking of relaying here to make a similar point. Sometimes companies make mistakes that, up front, are quite big. But, as you would with a person, sometimes you have to allow them the opportunity to correct that mistake. I'm currently waiting on a company that sells circuit card test equipment to "make it right" for me. So far, they've been quite supportive at fixing any issues that might come up, something another similar company did not over the course of years, which is why they didn't get our business this past fiscal quarter.

    I was looking forward to trying 2.x on my Pre+ and Pixi+. But I am more interested in getting my damn dirty paws on the Pre 3. I will wait and see how HP/Palm handle the situation and "make it right". Some here need to at least give them the chance. The whole flash and Docs to Go debacles are issues I blame more on Adobe and Docs to Go. Those companies dragged out the software. Docs to Go tried to blame Palm for not providing the tools, but I think it was more laziness on their part (not seeing enough users sure hurt) and what was probably a lot of talk with RIM before being bought out. Let's just kick back and wait and see how this all goes down.
    Dang, you said what I said, but lots less winded. I'm sure I type faster than you though.

    Very well put, you're exactly where I am on this situation. Palm pulled me out at the last minute once before. Maybe they can do it again. I'm getting an new phone in June. I'm hoping it's a Pre 3 (are you listening HP?). I'm also hoping it's on Sprint (are you listening Sprint)? But, that's my plan right now.

    Of course, if I change my mind, I'm sure someone here will call me a liar or something, but that is my plan.
  10. #150  
    This isn't Palm you're dealing with anymore. Once I saw that big HP at the announcement, that tells you who you're dealing with. And HP has an "interesting" history.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    This isn't Palm you're dealing with anymore. Once I saw that big HP at the announcement, that tells you who you're dealing with. And HP has an "interesting" history.
    All companies screw up like this. Seen it a billion times. Quite frankly, I'm pretty hard pressed to think of a company of any note that hasn't screwed their customers once or twice through their history. And they don't generally do it on purpose or out of some twisted desire.

    I've purchased products from HP in the past (laser printer and laptop, both of which are 3+ years old and still going just fine) and haven't had any issues with them. If you don't like HP, don't buy from them. It's that simple.
  12. #152  
    @HParsons, that's a very fitting story. Hopefully HP's plan to 'make up for it' is as respectable as the offer you received. Atleast they've publicly recognized the dissappointment they've brought to the majority of their webOS customers. That's a start; a step in the right direction, and quite frankly something many companies don't do when the make a mistake. Now we just have to wait for their peace offering.

    those of us who are so cynical that we think they were 'lying' about the webOS2.0 update, and also think they're lying about 'making it up' shouldn't even bother. You should take your money elsewhere.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    All companies screw up like this. Seen it a billion times. Quite frankly, I'm pretty hard pressed to think of a company of any note that hasn't screwed their customers once or twice through their history. And they don't generally do it on purpose or out of some twisted desire.

    I've purchased products from HP in the past (laser printer and laptop, both of which are 3+ years old and still going just fine) and haven't had any issues with them. If you don't like HP, don't buy from them. It's that simple.
    Sure, I said before it's the norm for just about every corporation. But those usually aren't simple screw ups, but deliberate actions or just plain indifference to consumers by the corporation.

    I have HP too, but that doesn't mean I appreciate what they've done recently. Did you also see the link about fake reviews for their e-printers?

    I was also pretty surprised to learn they were involved with government bribes and there have been several scandals concerning them.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14.    #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    #4 is incorrect. The Veer is slated for early spring. Other products will fit the "4 months or so".
    I already stated earlier in this thread that I do not count the Veer. It is like the Microsoft kin. It WILL fail.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    @HParsons, that's a very fitting story. Hopefully HP's plan to 'make up for it' is as respectable as the offer you received. Atleast they've publicly recognized the dissappointment they've brought to the majority of their webOS customers. That's a start; a step in the right direction, and quite frankly something many companies don't do when the make a mistake. Now we just have to wait for their peace offering.

    those of us who are so cynical that we think they were 'lying' about the webOS2.0 update, and also think they're lying about 'making it up' shouldn't even bother. You should take your money elsewhere.
    Thanks. There's a little more irony. My wife and I bought it last night (and the air compressor, and the accessories for it). They loaded it my Envoy XUV with a forklift. It weighs 380 lbs. The guy loading it said I could unload it piece by piece then assemble it.

    We we got it home, I opened the top of the crate. It's preassembled.

    I probably should yell and scream that they lied to me, but Apple hasn't invented motorcycle lifts yet, so I'm going to keep it and get my son-in-laws to help me unload it (I've got three of them).

    In the meantime though, my wife's driving the Envoy with the tailgate down, and a big crate hanging part way out.

    Sometimes, you have to just grin at life and keep living.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by 6tr6tr View Post
    I already stated earlier in this thread that I do not count the Veer. It is like the Microsoft kin. It WILL fail.
    You don't get to decide what counts though. It's a product they're producing, and it's promised for early spring.

    Every time I see a post that says none of their new products are going to be avialble for 4-6 months, or until summer, I'm going to point out the descrepency between what that person is saying, and what HP has said.

    And I'm not even going to call it a lie. But you are mistaken.
  17. #157  
    Just an aside, Herb. The original BBC article said that Apotheker claimed that all of the products on February 9 would be on sale a few weeks later. Not just the Veer.

    BBC News - Can Leo Apotheker make Hewlett Packard a cool company?

    When HP makes announcements, it will be getting ready to ship," he promises, saying the products launched on 9 February will be on sale just a few weeks later.
    Not a lot of wiggle room there.
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Just an aside, Herb. The original BBC article said that Apotheker claimed that all of the products on February 9 would be on sale a few weeks later. Not just the Veer.

    BBC News - Can Leo Apotheker make Hewlett Packard a cool company?



    Not a lot of wiggle room there.
    No argument from me there, what he said is obviously incorrect.

    However, so is the stuff the whiners are complaining about when they say things like:
    Quote Originally Posted by 6tr6tr View Post
    ...
    4. Saying, those devices will be available in about 4 months or so....
    Those statements are wrong for exactly the same reason.
    Apotheker didn't say "some of the products will be available ..." in weeks
    The whniers (that I correct) aren't saying "some of the products won't be availble ..." for months.

    In both cases, those making the statement are ignoring the exception.

    In both cases, those making the statement are wrong.
  19. #159  
    According to the BBC, he said on sale in a FEW weeks. I think it takes approximately six weeks to get from February 9 to March 20, the official start of Spring, so even if the Veer is available on HP.com March 21, it stretches credulity that he adhered to the "few" weeks timeframe.

    Had he said "a number" of weeks, it might be different. But "a few weeks" sets expectations for a number of weeks smaller than six to virtually anyone, don't you think?
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sometimes, you have to just grin at life and keep living.
    That's the right attitude. No point in getting upset over something you cannot change.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
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