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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    They clearly SAID they were committed, their true intentions are not known to us. But you're right, my comment of "no intention" was a bit harsh and infers a level of intent that probably wasn't there...
    Some may know more than you think, some may just be able to see what's gong on without the antagonism. BTW, the word you were looking for was "imply", not "infer". The person making the statement implies something. The person hearing it is the one who infers from the statement. I know, Ik now, picky, but words have meaning.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    ...So that leaves one possibility. HP broke Josh Marinacci's promise.
    ...
    Well, I'd have to say there is another possibility. That Josh, along with the rest of the development team, realized that HP was not going to achieve the success they wanted with the update they worked on.
  3. FDP
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    So that leaves one possibility. HP broke Josh Marinacci's promise.

    The fact that HP did nothing to help Josh Marinacci save face tells us that the original Pre was not the only thing that was left behind.
    I don't believe for a minute that Josh Marinacci is personally responsible for this, he's just the messenger. Even if his comment slipped out without approval (and believe me, these kinds of press events are closely controlled) HP still had months and months to retract it. They could have released a press statement that night, or sent corrections to any of the news outlets that reported on it. The point is that they didn't. They allowed months to go by and then tried to release the news when they thought it would have the least impact.

    Whether or not this was purposeful misleading or willful negligence, the point seems to be that they could have easily handled the situation in a way more respectful to their customers.

    Anyone who bought a Pixi or Pre in the three months following developer days has a right to feel mislead into purchasing an obsolete product. Considering that Verizon liquidated their stock that's probably a reasonable amount of people.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    The takeaway from this is HP feels free to make commitments with no intention of honoring them. That's good information to know....

    Why printers of course! They told us all that all these new webOS devices (including the ones you currently own after you get your webOS 2.0 upgrade [Edit: canceled later that day]) will print wirelessly with dozens and dozens of HP printers....
    H/Palm absolutely intended to honor their commitment to deliver 2.x to Pre and Pre Plus users. They just failed to do so. Intention and results are rarely the same. If you are in Florida and start driving north in I-95 with the intention of getting to Texas... you are not going to get to Texas no matter how strong your intentions were. On a side bar, it reminds me of Ron White saying "I had the right to remain silent, but I lacked the ability to do so."

    I terms of getting us to buy stuff by pulling the plug on updates for older phones... That would makes sense if (and only if)

    1) there was actually something else for people to buy.
    2) any reasonable person at HP thought this failure would somehow motivate Pre owners to buy anything, even if they could actually get a webOS printer of phone from their carrier.

    So, we keep hearing the same old stuff about how HP lied and did this to get us to buy stuff. But at the same time we hear that they couldn't find their way out of traffic if you gave them a police escort?

    I think we could actually beat HP up in a way that would motivate them to fix this mess if we used mature and logical arguments. Yelling "liar liar pants-on-fire" didn't help solve problems when we were little, either.

    Instead, it would be sensible if we realized that this was not some dark plot to irritate Sprint users. This is such a classic example of incompetence that it really proves the case. They have demonstrated that they can't execute a plan. So the fact that they succeeded in upsetting their users so completely is proof that they didn't intend to. Otherwise they would have failed and everyone would be happy...

    So I'm being a bit sarcastic (who me?) but seriously... Let's assume they made a huge mistake and use our energy to guilt them to fix it.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by FDP View Post
    I don't believe for a minute that Josh Marinacci is personally responsible for this, he's just the messenger. Even if his comment slipped out without approval (and believe me, these kinds of press events are closely controlled) HP still had months and months to retract it. They could have released a press statement that night, or sent corrections to any of the news outlets that reported on it. The point is that they didn't. They allowed months to go by and then tried to release the news when they thought it would have the least impact.

    Whether or not this was purposeful misleading or willful negligence, the point seems to be that they could have easily handled the situation in a way more respectful to their customers.

    Anyone who bought a Pixi or Pre in the three months following developer days has a right to feel mislead into purchasing an obsolete product. Considering that Verizon liquidated their stock that's probably a reasonable amount of people.
    I think you're ignoring that possibility that until very recently, HP had every intention of releasing it as an update.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You sure that Palm (or HP) "Advertised". What were the exact words they used in this promise? When was the promised release date for the software?

    Better have all of these questions and answers lined up before you take 'em to court. But please, let us know when and where, it should be entertaining.
    As I've said earlier, this line of reasoning just doesn't pass the sniff test. They didn't run a TV ad that said "we promise"... but it was all over their website, included in presentations, etc.

    I think it's counterproductive to play Clinton-like word games with the word "promise" because that's really not relevant. Not only was it clearly their intent to deliver 2.x based on countless instances of printed and spoken statements, but those increased in frequency as the Pre2 and webOS 2.0 info was released by HP/Palm. I don't think it can be argued that people bought Pre and Pixi phones specifically because they wanted to get 2.x either. Most users wouldn't know what that meant, and it would be like buying a Pentium4 years ahead of Windows7. Everyone knows that by the time Win7 shipped that there would be better hardware.

    The point is - HP failed to deliver what they planned, and failed harder when they told us the old plan wouldn't work without having any alternative plan. That's just a terrible lack of business sense, and shows that somebody was grossly incompetent.

    Incompetent in one (or more) of the following:

    1. Embarking on a product roadmap without doing ANY sort of feasibility study? Is it possible that no one ever looked at the 2.x requirements and compared it to the legacy specs? If this were true, I'd have zero confidence in any other aspect of their architecture.

    2. Upon realizing they couldn't pull it off, they weren't aware of the fact that most users have no alternative because none of the people with Pre/Pre+ phones are on the few carriers that offer the Pre2. And to add complication, the carriers that used to offer the classic hardware were running out of spares so users might not be able to wait for new stuff. Could they not see the catch-22 this would create for their customers?

    3. Upon realizing 2.0 isn't going to be available for old hardware, and that their current users have no option to migrate, and no replacements so they can wait.... it didn't occur to them that it would be extra damaging to break this bad news just at the peak of hype and energy that they had been building for the previous 6 months.... Apparently so.

    Personally I doubt #1. But the actions of the last two weeks tell me that #2 and #3 are actually true of at least somebody at HP and/or Palm. That, my friends, is what really has me worried. Unless Ruby is on drugs 7x24, how could he sit down with reporters on the 9th and think it was going to be anything but a train wreck? And doesn't he have anyone around him that has the stones to speak up and warn him? Which is worse, that no one realized it, or that no one tried to stop it?

    Either way, somebody must surely have been fired over this incredible lack of business sense.
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 02/16/2011 at 06:44 PM.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    ...
    3. Upon realizing 2.0 isn't going to be available for old hardware, and that their current users have no option to migrate, and no replacements so they can wait.... it didn't occur to them that it would be extra damaging to break this bad news just at the peak of hype and energy that they had been building for the previous 6 months.... Apparently so.
    ...
    Personally, I think this is the one that's closest to the mark. Don't misunderstand me, I think it's still incompetence on their part, but I don't think it's really quite as severe incompetence as it sounds.

    I've been involved in a few beta tests, and a lot of projects, where those involved have features at hand that those not involved do not have. While the folks involved my intellectually understand and remember that others don't have those yet, they tend to forget how important those features are, and how awful it is not to have them.

    I suspect that's what happened with HP on this. Here's the scenario I have pictured.

    Lots of group meetings (I've been in these before, and anyone that's never participated in a project scrum that's scheduled for 30 minutes to hammer a particular issue, they have no idea...) where lots of things are tossed out.

    I suspect in one of those meetings, it was decided that they were not going to be able to offer the update to all of the existing devices. Then they began the discussion of what the alternatives were. I further suspect, they had some good ideas about what they might do, but nothing was written in stone yet.

    Then they did their event. I think in the state of "being used to" the new features, they didn't recognize how impatient those that didn't have those features were for them. I suspect it never occurred to them that someone may ask again - you're really going to have this for the older devices? Because they didn't expect it (and that's the incompetent part), they didn't have a party line of an answer. Thus the deer in the headlight answer - No

    So, one person answers with one of the possibilities that was brought up in one of the meetings - an upgrade, but non-OTA, without realizing that Ruby had already decided against that.

    After that mess hit the fan, they needed to start cleaning up.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    H/Palm absolutely intended to honor their commitment to deliver 2.x to Pre and Pre Plus users. They just failed to do so. Intention and results are rarely the same. If you are in Florida and start driving north in I-95 with the intention of getting to Texas... you are not going to get to Texas no matter how strong your intentions were. On a side bar, it reminds me of Ron White saying "I had the right to remain silent, but I lacked the ability to do so."

    I terms of getting us to buy stuff by pulling the plug on updates for older phones... That would makes sense if (and only if)

    1) there was actually something else for people to buy.
    2) any reasonable person at HP thought this failure would somehow motivate Pre owners to buy anything, even if they could actually get a webOS printer of phone from their carrier.

    So, we keep hearing the same old stuff about how HP lied and did this to get us to buy stuff. But at the same time we hear that they couldn't find their way out of traffic if you gave them a police escort?

    I think we could actually beat HP up in a way that would motivate them to fix this mess if we used mature and logical arguments. Yelling "liar liar pants-on-fire" didn't help solve problems when we were little, either.

    Instead, it would be sensible if we realized that this was not some dark plot to irritate Sprint users. This is such a classic example of incompetence that it really proves the case. They have demonstrated that they can't execute a plan. So the fact that they succeeded in upsetting their users so completely is proof that they didn't intend to. Otherwise they would have failed and everyone would be happy...

    So I'm being a bit sarcastic (who me?) but seriously... Let's assume they made a huge mistake and use our energy to guilt them to fix it.
    I think this pretty much sums it up...
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post

    So that leaves one possibility. HP broke Josh Marinacci's promise.

    The fact that HP did nothing to help Josh Marinacci save face tells us that the original Pre was not the only thing that was left behind.
    I realize that this has elements of hyperbole because Obviously Josh isn't the person that "owned" the promise and HP didn't intentionally throw him under the bus... and users have to resist the temptation to personalize this as indicating that Josh (or Lisa, etc.) lied, agreed with, or had anything to do with this boneheaded move by H/Palm

    With that said, it really amazes me that HP/Palm doesn't have a "VP of Preventing Stupidity" somewhere in that company with responsibility for making sure this sort of thing doesn't happen. That VP would be in the same department as the "VP of Making Sure the Right Hand Knows What the Left Hand is Doing" as well as the "VP of Ensuring HP's **** Can Cash Checks That HP's Mouth Writes" and the "VP of Verifying That Product Roadmaps are Technically Possible".

    Whoever they had in those jobs on the 9th should be demoted to night janitor at a crack house. Let's hope they are replaced with someone that can at least fog a mirror and dress themselves. Pretty sure the previous guys couldn't.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    I think this pretty much sums it up...
    It should, but it won't be long before someone else posts "Liar Liar Pants on Fire" again, and continues to argue that somehow HP is getting some sort of profit from this fiasco...
  11. #131  
    When HP realized they couldn't support the old products and optimize the next generation at the same time, they had an opportunity to strengthen or throw it away.

    Say HP would have had a press conference at CES and said,

    "We are at a crossroads. We can either pull back development to stay inside the envelope of past products or we can push the envelope to the limits of what the next generation can do. We hope you'll all join us next month as we push the envelope as hard as we can. "

    Then announce that an upgrade path will be coming for existing webOS users.

    Instead of feeling betrayed users would have been even more excited. They could have made users insiders on their team.

    But the millions who stood by them all these months were an after thought, baggage from the past that they threw under the bus when a good Engadget reporter saw through what they were up to. Read how Joshua Topolsky expertly got them to admit what they were really doing.

    Instead of being the old baggage to get rid of, we would have been on their team. We just never got the chance.

    Josh Marinacci was just the messenger. He was excitedly telling the truth as he knew it. Unfortunately messengers have a bad habit of getting crucified.

    Good luck, Josh. YouTube videos never die.
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 02/17/2011 at 08:56 AM.
  12. #132  
    Does anyone know what became of Josh Marinacci? Will he be able to be a corporate spokesman in the future?
  13. xtn
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    #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    It did benefit them. How many people hung onto their Pres and renewed their contracts thinking they were going to get more life out of the device with the upgrade?
    Um... how exactly does it benefit HP when many people keep paying their cell. Phone service provider?
  14. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by xtn View Post
    Um... how exactly does it benefit HP when many people keep paying their cell. Phone service provider?
    By passing up the opportunity to jump to a different platform.
  15. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    It did benefit them. How many people hung onto their Pres and renewed their contracts thinking they were going to get more life out of the device with the upgrade? Heck, I don't think they were planning on telling us yesterday, as they had two different stories. They were lying even then. So, yes. They had material reason to lie.
    There are two fallacies with this:

    • Why would anyone hanging on to their old Pres renew their contract? No one purchasing the original Pre is yet out of contract.
    • How does staying in contract with a provider and keeping your old phone make any money for HP?


    I also think you're way too free on the use of the word "lie". Keep in mind, at least one of these people you're accusing of telling a lie is a member here (Lisa/Adora). She didn't lie. She said exactly what she thought was the case, then found that plan she was talking about (allowing WebOS Doctor updates) had been nixed by Ruby. That's not a lie.

    You owe her an apology.
  16. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    By passing up the opportunity to jump to a different platform.
    Wrong. Jumping to another platform does not cost HP any money. The only instance where HP would be losing money (and even then, it's only missing sales, not losing money) would be if a user jumped platform instead of buying what HP offers.

    They have nothing to offer, so even that doesn't apply.
  17. #138  
    I've stayed out of this thread for the most part, but I'm curious, Hparsons....how would you characterize HP's actions? The "L" word (no, not love or lesbians) seems to be a uber-controversial 'round these parts, and I'm guessing you don't find it applicable. Which is totally fine.

    But how would you summarize it? They "confused" their customers? They "misstated" their intentions? They "overpromised"? I'm genuinely interested. Thanks, sir.
  18. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You owe her an apology.
    Nope, I don't think so. She may have been telling the truth as she knew it. HP has many mouths. When they are all saying different things, even if each mouth thinks it is telling the truth, the whole is still lying. I don't know which individuals are responsible for the deception. But the moment they realized they couldn't fulfill their promise and chose not to acknowledge it, they were lying. I don't see how you can get around that.
  19.    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Say HP would have had a press conference at CES and said,

    "We are at a crossroads. We can either pull back development to stay inside the envelope of past products or we can push the envelope to the limits of what the next generation can do. We hope you'll all join us next month as we push the envelope as hard as we can. "
    See THIS is the crux of the problem. If the Pre 3 was coming out in a week or so (especially on Sprint), no one would be upset. But HP saying first that:

    1. the good stuff was coming in months (this was in 2010)

    2. Extending that into the next year...

    3. Saying we're going to have a big announcement and we'll only announce devices we can have available in weeks

    4. Saying, those devices will be available in about 4 months or so....

    it all makes WebOS users hear, "We have no friggin' clue if these things are ever coming to you, and if so, it might be in a year."
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