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  1. #61  
    Webos and Android started out similarly. they were both fairly unknown but the difference is that Google knew they could start something and something big if they just started giving options. Palm didn't do it and look what happened. Android is now a very huge threat to the immortal iPhone and Webos is suffering. Palm needs to put up not just one super phone but several.
  2. shloime's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by dwhitworth View Post
    So, Ruby and HP, hear this from one of the Palm faithful - forget about spec wars and marketing labels. I don't care if you build a "superphone" with a huge display so packed with pixels that I can't see them. Just keep doing what you did at Palm with the Pre - building forward looking devices with timeless, human-centric design that enhance my day-to-day life and work experiences without intruding on them. Wait until you're ready, and then give us the device we don't even know how to ask for, because no one has thought of it yet. Then, find a way to let the world, not just the faithful few, know what you've done. Until then, I'm happy to have a Pre in my pocket.
    Wow! Nice first post.[/QUOTE]

    nice comment!

    and we dont care if they sell 1 million 100 millions, or 1000 trillions or 100 or 1000 phones. certain people buy phones(and other devices,furniture,etc) because is good quality and/or works great for you.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    But with the Pre, the selling price was cut in half within 7 weeks of its release (Pre Price dropped to $99 - 26 July 2009). That simply proves that the phone was released at a price too high for the market to support.
    Oops! Didn't actually read the article did you?

    >>Editor's Note Monday ,July 27 : Whoops the price drop was a mistake tweeted Best Buy. The price of the Palm Pre is back up to $199, today.<<

    I do remember that Sprint didn't drop the price for a very long time. The biggest issue with the phone was that the OS took 6 months too long to be ready (and still wasn't quite there) which allowed some of the excitement to wear off. That combined with **** poor market, what little there was, a lack of volume for availability, some poor quality issues on a chunk of the original phones, and you have what we got. Verizon is where the phone dropped fastest, mostly due to their bungling of the whole deal, sending many customers over to the Droid even when they wanted to look at the Pre+.


    Mikah, as far as what you posted, there were a number of things not quite right in your response. I will say this, when you look at the sales chart for Verizon, during the bulk of the months that the Pre+ was available for a low price, it was the second best seller on their network pulling in nearly half as many users as the Droid was during comparable periods. It started tailing off in September. Judging by the charts, I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon actually put anywhere from 600-900 thousand units in people's hands. Not a smash hit, but certainly not a failure. Many phones never see those kinds of numbers.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by StevenX View Post
    This really isn't true, at least in the UK. BB is extremely popular here; I think people think it has some sort of status attached and buy them without really knowing what exactly they can/can't do, and likewise what the competition can/can't do. I know a LOT of people who have bought a BB just because it's a BB. In London particularly, the vast majority of people have an iPhone. The vast majority of those who don't have an iPhone have a BB.
    Totally disagree with you. Though, first of all, I am primarily talking about the States. What you are seeing is the same stage the US was in about a year and a half ago. BB's were the hot thing. Everyone was getting one. It was hip to have one and be able to use BB Messenger. That was then. The Curve 8530's failure to really hit it off, now showing up with the Torch and other BB phones, is a clear indication that BB is losing those who tried to phone thinking it was the in thing. These people have moved on in the US and they will do so in the UK as well. Simple reason is that, after using the phone for a year, many people who wanted a smartphone for real use, who thought BB was the way to go, found out that the experience is not what it was made out to be. I found that out the hard way. The daily little annoyances got too me.

    With webOS, those things aren't there. People who learn to use it (it's not hard, but if the sales person doesn't show you, and you don't look at the videos and/or internet to see how to do things, it's not always 100% intuitive at first) tend to love it and want to stick with it. Marketing and a lack of several form factors are the two core reasons why Palm hasn't knocked it out of the park yet. HP will give them the ability to do that.
  5. #65  
    HPalm will be pulling everything they got this year. It will be exciting for us palm faithful and I can't wait to have options with my web OS devices. I will be with web OS for a long time coming. My pre- is good enough for the time being and for the near future. I can wait patiently for bigger and better especially when I know there are superphones on the way.

    -shag-
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    Oops! Didn't actually read the article did you?

    >>Editor's Note Monday ,July 27 : Whoops the price drop was a mistake tweeted Best Buy. The price of the Palm Pre is back up to $199, today.<<

    I do remember that Sprint didn't drop the price for a very long time.
    Yet Best Buy still honored that price (there's a reason I know this). And only 90 days after the Pre release, the Pre price dropped $50 and two weeks later, Walmart dropped the price to $80. Again, not the commanding price of a high-end, flagship device.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    Totally disagree with you. Though, first of all, I am primarily talking about the States. What you are seeing is the same stage the US was in about a year and a half ago. BB's were the hot thing. Everyone was getting one. It was hip to have one and be able to use BB Messenger. That was then. The Curve 8530's failure to really hit it off, now showing up with the Torch and other BB phones, is a clear indication that BB is losing those who tried to phone thinking it was the in thing. These people have moved on in the US and they will do so in the UK as well. Simple reason is that, after using the phone for a year, many people who wanted a smartphone for real use, who thought BB was the way to go, found out that the experience is not what it was made out to be. I found that out the hard way. The daily little annoyances got too me.

    With webOS, those things aren't there. People who learn to use it (it's not hard, but if the sales person doesn't show you, and you don't look at the videos and/or internet to see how to do things, it's not always 100% intuitive at first) tend to love it and want to stick with it. Marketing and a lack of several form factors are the two core reasons why Palm hasn't knocked it out of the park yet. HP will give them the ability to do that.
    I don't know, I am seeing a trend in younger folk between 14 and 22 in using BB's, I think because they are cheap. They only care about two things, email and instant messaging. The BB is available on multiple carriers, it's cheap, durable and does email and IM well.
    The city is NY.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 12/30/2010 at 07:59 AM.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    I don't know, I am seeing a trend in younger folk between 14 and 22 in using BB's, I think because they are cheap. They only care about two things, email and instant messaging. The BB is available on multiple carriers, it's cheap, durable and does email and IM well.
    The city is NY.
    The market share numbers show otherwise. I've seen the same trend all around me in the Tampa Bay area. And the sales numbers, or lack thereof, for phones like the Curve and Torch say it all.
  9. Thead's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Yet Best Buy still honored that price (there's a reason I know this). And only 90 days after the Pre release, the Pre price dropped $50 and two weeks later, Walmart dropped the price to $80. Again, not the commanding price of a high-end, flagship device.
    Best Buy honored that price for two whole days until they got it corrected in their system. There's a pretty big difference between a 50% price drop in 7 weeks and a 25% price drop after 3 months.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Thead View Post
    Best Buy honored that price for two whole days until they got it corrected in their system. There's a pretty big difference between a 50% price drop in 7 weeks and a 25% price drop after 3 months.
    I guess you missed falconrap's first post in our back-n-forth in which he said:
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap
    Every high-end phone becomes a mid-range phone within the 6-12 month time frame. Just depends on the competition.
    To paraphrase your (pretty much off target) comment, 'There's a pretty big difference between a 7-week to 3 month time frame and a 6-12 month time frame.'

    [Math assist: $200 price drop to $80 price drop is a 60% price drop in 3 months. I think you might have miscalculated that.]
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I doubt HPalm is going to try to launch a superphone to try to compete on specs. They don't have a superphone-capable OS.
    That's a crazy remark. Webos is a Linux based system. Linux powers anything from small embedded devices to supercomputers (and in between those my Laptops :-) ).

    Care to explain what webos is lacking that a "superphone-capable OS" needs?

    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    HDMI output?
    Hardly anybody cares about that. If that's super-important to you - fine. But don't try to tell me that anybody is selling lot's of phones (super- or otherwise) by having HDMI output.

    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    How about enabling mic input first.
    That's a much better point. Yes - that's needed. Also acknowledged and already in the works. But that was an API problem - not a limitation of the OS. Simply wasn't a high priority for resource-restrained Palm.
    I agree that such APIs are needed for high-end phones - I just don't see it as a big hurdle to overcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Indications are that HP is targeting mid-range enterprise users and teens. I doubt the smallest smartphone ever as a recent leak suggests is going to be a superphone. The idea of webOS superphone exists only in PreCentral forum dreams.
    None of us really know what's in the pipeline at HPalm - because they haven't told us any details. Only broad remarks. Obviously to keep things under wrap until they can make a big wow presentation.

    CES - the most likely venue for such presentations - is just a week away. All claims before that date are pretty useless and based on hot air.

    Yes - HP didn't have much experience/success in the smartphone market - which is exactly one of the reasons they paid money to aquire the pioneer of that market. Palm had lots of experience/competence/ideas - but lacked resources to develop and market them. HP has lots of resources - it's fairly easy to see why the merger made sense.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  12. Thead's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    I guess you missed falconrap's first post in our back-n-forth in which he said:

    To paraphrase your (pretty much off target) comment, 'There's a pretty big difference between a 7-week to 3 month time frame and a 6-12 month time frame.'

    [Math assist: $200 price drop to $80 price drop is a 60% price drop in 3 months. I think you might have miscalculated that.]
    Arguing the particulars of when the price drops actually occurred is pointless. My only goal was to discredit your initial claim that the Pre received a 50% price cut after 7 weeks due to poor sales. That was not true.

    Also, my comment had nothing to do with falconraps, it had to do with yours. I don't care when high end phones become mid range phones. I was simply stating that a phone dropping by 25% after 90 days (what really happened) isn't as significant an event as what you were claiming (that it dropped 50% in 50 days). (Math assist: $200 to $150 in 90 days is a 25% drop.) Wal-mart then dropped it to $80 2 weeks later, after over 100 days, or 3.5 months. So if you want to argue that a 60% drop in 100 days is significant, then I can't disagree with you. I'm just trying to correct your errors, not disprove your point.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Thead View Post
    Arguing the particulars of when the price drops actually occurred is pointless. My only goal...
    Your opening statement is spot on.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Thead View Post
    Arguing the particulars of when the price drops actually occurred is pointless. My only goal was to discredit your initial claim that the Pre received a 50% price cut after 7 weeks due to poor sales. That was not true.

    Also, my comment had nothing to do with falconraps, it had to do with yours. I don't care when high end phones become mid range phones. I was simply stating that a phone dropping by 25% after 90 days (what really happened) isn't as significant an event as what you were claiming (that it dropped 50% in 50 days). (Math assist: $200 to $150 in 90 days is a 25% drop.) Wal-mart then dropped it to $80 2 weeks later, after over 100 days, or 3.5 months. So if you want to argue that a 60% drop in 100 days is significant, then I can't disagree with you. I'm just trying to correct your errors, not disprove your point.
    Not only that, much of the information he's providing is simply incorrect.

    Some BestBuys honored the price, not all (I know, because I tried).

    Walmart's price was only for new subscribers - update subscribers were not eligible. (I know, I tried.)

    I even went back to Best Buy and tried to use Walmart's pricing structure for a price match. No Go.


    I think it's kind of funny the whole "the phone sucks, you can tell by the price" nonsense. The EVO is $99 right now at Radio Shack. Verizon has buy one get one on all of their phones, including the latest greates Android phones. No folks, special pricing is an indication of a company's desire to run a special, not the quality (or lack thereof) of the phone.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    The fact that webOS is linux-based doesn't mean very much as far as the features that will be made available in 2011. A Smart car engine is based on an internal combustion engine which powers anything from compact cars to high-end sports cars.

    The past two years have shown that Palm is obviously having trouble enabling and refining even basic smartphone features on webOS. Even the PDK is a method of essentially bypassing webOS.
    Or, maybe the last two years have shown that Palm was having trouble, because somewhat lacking in resources to do everything they want. Obviously, things have changed.

    The nonsense about "even basic smartphone features" is pure BS. Just because you define some features as "basic smartphone features" doesn't make it so. Further, just because Palm didn't develop some of features doesn't mean they can't, or won't.

    Tholap's assessment is correct, the underlying capabilities are there. As far as what HP/Palm has right now in regards to a smartphone capable OS, and what they will have this year, I submit you don't know much about what they have. They're not talking much. But, there's no doubt that WebOS can handle a "superphone".
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    I guess you missed falconrap's first post in our back-n-forth in which he said:

    To paraphrase your (pretty much off target) comment, 'There's a pretty big difference between a 7-week to 3 month time frame and a 6-12 month time frame.'

    [Math assist: $200 price drop to $80 price drop is a 60% price drop in 3 months. I think you might have miscalculated that.]
    And you're still missing the point. You are presupposing that price, and price alone, dictate whether or not a phone is "high end" or not. It does not. Capabilities are far more important to making that determination. The iPhone and Pre pretty much held that spot until the Droid came up and took it, roughly 5-6 months later. Then the Evo came along and took it, roughly 6-7 months later. It's getting to the point now where high-end phones may not retain that status for more than a couple of months. I suspect that a lot of phones will be getting pushed down the ladder every 2-3 months during 2011. But for the time frames involving the original Pre, 6-12 months was the window. Now it's shorter. Before it was longer. In the end, who cares. The Pre did well with all things considered. The Pre+, once priced low enough to override the sales push to the Droid, sold well enough as well. Not a steller hit, but not a total flop either. Timing and advertising made it less of a hit than it could have been.

    With HP/Palm stating they are looking to put out a new phone every 2 months, I think they will move quite a bit of product. With enough variation in form factor, and solid build quality, webOS will likely take off. For me, that's the only important thing.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap
    And you're still missing the point. You are presupposing that price, and price alone, dictate whether or not a phone is "high end" or not. It does not. Capabilities are far more important to making that determination. The iPhone and Pre pretty much held that spot until the Droid came up and took it, roughly 5-6 months later. Then the Evo came along and took it, roughly 6-7 months later. It's getting to the point now where high-end phones may not retain that status for more than a couple of months. I suspect that a lot of phones will be getting pushed down the ladder every 2-3 months during 2011. But for the time frames involving the original Pre, 6-12 months was the window. Now it's shorter. Before it was longer. In the end, who cares. The Pre did well with all things considered. The Pre+, once priced low enough to override the sales push to the Droid, sold well enough as well. Not a steller hit, but not a total flop either. Timing and advertising made it less of a hit than it could have been.
    Simply put, the only factor that makes a phone "high end" is the price it commands at the store - which may differ significantly than the initial price assigned to it. If an alleged high end phone's price plummets, it's because it is no longer considered high end. For example, Pre sales goals weren't attainable at the original "high end" entry price, so the price was lowered, for no other reason than to boost sales, in an (failed) attempt to meet original sales goals. Unless you believe the pending launch of the Hero was intended to knock the Pre off of its high end status only 3 months after its release.

    Contrast that with a phone like the EVO at Sprint (still $199 with a new contract after online instant savings, $199 at Bestbuy Mobile, temporarily $99 at RC) or the Droid X at Verizon (Still $199 with a new contract after mail-in rebate, $199 at Bestbuy Mobile). Both of these phones have been for sale for more than 5 months (almost 7 months for the EVO). Unlike your assertion, true high end phones still maintain their status beyond 2-3 months.
  18. #78  
    Kupe, you are sadly mistaken. Many high end products get discounted when they don't move for one reason or another. There are many items out there that are expensive to produce, represent the top tier of their product category, but, for various reasons, don't sell as well as hoped. Because inventory is purchased, and most be turned, therefore, the price gets dropped and you get a good deal on high end merchandise. The EVO, for example, was advertised to death, and the supplies were relatively constrained to the demand, therefore, it's held its value. The Pre was barely, and poorly, advertised, and a large run up on inventory was created due to over production versus demand. This simple dynamic is what eventually drove its cost down.

    We saw this dynamic even more so with Verizon that bought nearly half a million units and initially failed to move inventory because the sale force was pushing Droid on everyone, even those that asked about the Pre+. This caused inventory to stall, meaning cash was tied up, hence Verizon started doing BOGO, and also dropped the price. Once it hit the $49 mark, the phone's sales, backed by the Verizon phone sales chart, was selling about half the number of phones the Droid was, no small feat for a poorly advertised product that Verizon's sales force tried to push people away from. It also helped when Palm publicly called them out.

    I've been in manufacturing for almost 2 decades now, and I've seen this dynamic in the companies I worked for as well as our customers. No matter the product, turns are the second most important thing, right behind the margins.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    The fact that webOS is linux-based doesn't mean very much as far as the features that will be made available in 2011. A Smart car engine is based on an internal combustion engine which powers anything from compact cars to high-end sports cars.

    The past two years have shown that Palm is obviously having trouble enabling and refining even basic smartphone features on webOS. Even the PDK is a method of essentially bypassing webOS.
    What basic smart phone features is WebOS missing? Please, tell me what my BlackBerry has (or had, since I dropped the phone for a feature phone) that WebOS apparently is missing? Since I don't have a WebOS phone I wouldn't know -- since no review I have read has told me that WebOS is not a smartphone OS and missing several smartphone features.
  20. #80  
    Your kidding right? Lets talk real platforms and put black berry aside for a min. Out of the box pre and webos is missing many many basic features that iphone and android phones have. That's where home brew came in.a bunch of really smart dudes who basically work on there own time for no Money , creating tweeks and patches to give us alot of these features that come standard on most devices. They made/ make the pre more fun, more usable. Don't say there was nothing missing, maybe compared to black berry.




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