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  1.    #1  
    IT seems HPalm was trying to be overly cautious in not having a repeat of CES 2009 (with early announcement and delayed shipment of PRE resulting in huge backlash and allowing others to copy major advancements). However, with no announcements/leaks yet and announcements of Blackberry Playbook, LG Star and Motorolla Olympus now there are several new devices with Tegra 2 and it seems that at least on the hardware front HPalm will not be pioneers.

    This has to be said that none of these devices are close to shipping and HPalm "may" ship earlier than any of these devices. Also, Tegra 2 "may" be faster than TI OMAP 4440 (on the GPU front) and Samsung's next gen Cortex A9 SOC will definitely be faster clock per clock.

    However I think these leaks have stolen the thunder from HPalm. It is apparent that even without a leak from Palm about what chipset/features they will have other vendors are also striving to have a bigger better market share with bigger better devices. The landscape is not that same as it was at CES 2009.

    HPalm seems to be losing not only momentum but also the chance to stay relevant. Pre 2 is a GOOD phone and yet there is NO support from any of the carriers. These are the same carriers that are carrying Pixi hardware based phones (as mid range) and advertising them.

    A PRe is head and shoulders above ANY of the mid-range Android Phones and is cheaper to boot but there was no marketing push. Pre 2 is just being ignored by Verizon (the only carrier to actually carry it) and basically doing a repeat of the PRE launch (as expected).

    I think HPalm should have some sort of controlled leak beyond what we have seen so far (code names in webOS 2.0) and then they should push for webOS 2.0 on existing devices that brings speed and/or sell CDMA versions of PRE 2 at a price cut as well.

    They need a bigger push, and sale on PRe 2 without a contract, may be better than spending a huge amount of money on useless, confusing and in-effect damaging marketing.

    People working in Retail stores have been pushing Android because they are the ones who have been most influenced by the marketing. Word of mouth may be the only way they will be convinced.
  2.    #2  
    What other things do you think HPalm can do to fix this issue?
  3. reidme's Avatar
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    #3  
    Most of this is out of HP's and Palm's control. They are on the outside looking in and carriers are not falling all over themselves to carry webOS phones. Sprint and AT&T passed on the Pre 2 and Verizon is dragging their feet. Sprint and Verizon don't even have the Pre or Pre Plus on their websites now. It won't help to spend big bucks on marketing if the phone isn't available on a carrier.
  4.    #4  
    WebOS market share is down to 1.3% according to Nielson and most carriers have EOL'd the original Pre without any news about the new phones. Why is this out of HPalm's hands? Wouldn't leaking more info increase people's interest? Generate FREE and GOOD publicity?
  5. spud101's Avatar
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    #5  
    People, how many times must it be said. The world is bigger than US. In the rest of the world (except a few countries in Europe where the Pre was/is sold without much marketing) Palm is a totally unknown brand. So NO momentum whatsoever to keep moving.

    I seriously think HP is working for a WORLDWIDE (re)launch of their Palm (or maybe just HP) brand as a mobile connected devices player.

    Really the few extra people they might attract now with some more Pre2 exposure or (staged) leaks is totally insignificant... So the delay of give or take a few months isn't really that big of a deal.

    It's just that WHEN they announce they REALLY have to DELIVER, both in terms of products and marketing (brand awareness) quickly after that to have any chance to play a meaningful role in the market.
  6. #6  
    I seriously doubt that announcing the playbook or future phones running fast chipsets have stolen any thunder. HPalm will be making their announcements next month. Wouldn't they be stealing the thunder from companies who make announcements now? Actually having leaks before a company makes the announcement could possibly water down their venues when ces comes around. Kinda like when the iphone was stolen. If everyone knows what youre going to show/say then you lose that 'wow' factor. On top of that, if something gets leaked now (just to please some of the impatient among us) and HP is forced to make the announcement that it isn't coming until so and so date then everyone will have time to steal ideas and really "steal their thunder". Same as what happened with the original pre. People need to relax. Having any 'spy shots' or leaks of the hardware won't do anything for palm or webos at this point. Explain to me how seeing a photo of something that will be shown about 40 days (give or take a few) from now will change anything? Are you implying that it will sell the pre2? No, a leak won't tell us anything we don't already know.Would you go grab a pre 2 if precentral reports tomorrow that the palm mansion/mantaray or whatever is coming out at the end of January? No. We don't need leaks to tell us new devices are on the horizon. Right now a leak is the last thing any of us should be wanting. It WILL do more harm than good. The average consumer doesn't even know nor care about ces or the pre 2. People keep speaking like the average joe is reading these sites. How would a leak increase sales? Isn't this a business? How would it gain marketshare/mindshare? Saying anything now won't do anything an announcement next month can't/won't do.
    Last edited by hesosmoove; 12/03/2010 at 03:18 AM.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by hesosmoove View Post
    . On top of that, if something gets leaked now (just to please some of the impatient among us) and HP is forced to make the announcement that it isn't coming until so and so date then everyone will have time to steal ideas
    at ces, palm needs to pull a "and it's available next week"

    Probably won't though
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by patricksmangan View Post
    at ces, palm needs to pull a "and it's available next week"

    Probably won't though
    If they can't get Verizon - the only carrier to agree to carry the Pre 2 - to commit to a date for that, this seems like a virtual impossibility.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by reidme View Post
    Most of this is out of HP's and Palm's control. They are on the outside looking in and carriers are not falling all over themselves to carry webOS phones. Sprint and AT&T passed on the Pre 2 and Verizon is dragging their feet. Sprint and Verizon don't even have the Pre or Pre Plus on their websites now. It won't help to spend big bucks on marketing if the phone isn't available on a carrier.
    Except this isn't Palm or some rinky dink company. It's HP. If they truly wanted the Pre 2 on Sprint or verizon...and want it yesterday...it would happen.

    I don't buy that carriers have passed on the Pre 2 because i don't really think HP has seriously (key word) offered it to them. HP is obviously not trying that hard (if at all) to launch this. Maybe its just a way to keep the devs somewhat active so they all don't run off. The homebrew team seems excited...

    Now i'm not saying this is a good or bad thing because that's another debate. It's just what it is. When we see HP making announcements, presentations, and bringing some marketing muscle...being serious, then we can say if a carrier is passing or not, or how screwed up a launch it is, etc.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    If they can't get Verizon - the only carrier to agree to carry the Pre 2 - to commit to a date for that, this seems like a virtual impossibility.
    So what you're saying is just because verizon hasn't released a phone that they too know will be obsolete in a few weeks, that Hpalm can't announce something better that could be released on other carriers soon after the announcement? Maybe they (cell phone providers) already have info on the newer hardware and they're holding off on supporting something thats very unlikely to sell. I seriously doubt you on anyone else on here would want the pre 2 if we had word on the specs/release date of the next device(s) from Hpalm. Assume that sprint/att/tmobile and even verizon has this info and decided it would be a waste of money to support something they feel won't be a major seller.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by patricksmangan View Post
    at ces, palm needs to pull a "and it's available next week"

    Probably won't though
    Actually it could happen. Now i'm not saying it will but it's a possibility. It's not like HP doesn't have the clout to make it happen. Also Hpalm has been completely silent about everything. For a company as large as Hpalm to be able to keep all their plans under wraps, I say they've gotta be planning something way bigger than just announcing hardware that won't be out for months. We're already expecting bigger,faster phones, and even some sort of tablet running webos. What we're not expecting is a release date to come right after (a week or two) ces. Also i doubt anyone will be expecting webos 2.x or any type of cloud based pim/media software to be fully baked.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Except this isn't Palm or some rinky dink company. It's HP. If they truly wanted the Pre 2 on Sprint or verizon...and want it yesterday...it would happen.

    I don't buy that carriers have passed on the Pre 2 because i don't really think HP has seriously (key word) offered it to them. HP is obviously not trying that hard (if at all) to launch this. Maybe its just a way to keep the devs somewhat active so they all don't run off. The homebrew team seems excited...

    Now i'm not saying this is a good or bad thing because that's another debate. It's just what it is. When we see HP making announcements, presentations, and bringing some marketing muscle...being serious, then we can say if a carrier is passing or not, or how screwed up a launch it is, etc.
    But carriers have passed. Sprint has too, obviously, but hasn't commented to that effect publicly. AT&T seems to have as well being that a GSM version using their bands is readily available, yet they won't carry it.

    HP was serious enough to send this device, along with WebOS 2.0, out for review to every tech journalist who still gave a whoop. They're serious enough to sell it directly on their site. That's all we have to judge for now, and it's abysmal.

    Sure, they have some "connected devices" strategy they keep talking up, but it's still just talk for now. We have no idea what that will consist of exactly, nor when it will arrive or how it will be positioned. Meanwhile, they are leading with their weakest blows....now.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by hesosmoove View Post
    So what you're saying is just because verizon hasn't released a phone that they too know will be obsolete in a few weeks, that Hpalm can't announce something better that could be released on other carriers soon after the announcement? Maybe they (cell phone providers) already have info on the newer hardware and they're holding off on supporting something thats very unlikely to sell. I seriously doubt you on anyone else on here would want the pre 2 if we had word on the specs/release date of the next device(s) from Hpalm. Assume that sprint/att/tmobile and even verizon has this info and decided it would be a waste of money to support something they feel won't be a major seller.
    So Verizon knows something better is coming in a few weeks, yet DELAYS the release of this, thereby costing them easy money from the handfuls of WebOS customers on Verizon who want this device? Sprint is "holding off" for a newer device just around the corner, yet Palm is entreating its customers to beg Sprint to carry the Pre 2?

    Finally, if Verizon "has this info" and decides it would be "a waste of money" to support the Pre 2, why agree to carry it in the first place?
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by hesosmoove View Post
    Actually it could happen. Now i'm not saying it will but it's a possibility. It's not like HP doesn't have the clout to make it happen. Also Hpalm has been completely silent about everything. For a company as large as Hpalm to be able to keep all their plans under wraps, I say they've gotta be planning something way bigger than just announcing hardware that won't be out for months. We're already expecting bigger,faster phones, and even some sort of tablet running webos. What we're not expecting is a release date to come right after (a week or two) ces. Also i doubt anyone will be expecting webos 2.x or any type of cloud based pim/media software to be fully baked.
    If this is the case and it "could" happen, why does everything on their website say "coming soon" or "in the coming months"? They can't get a solid release date for when the carriers will approve 2.x or when Verizon will get around to releasing the device, but yet they're capable of executing a large scale announcement/launch in the span of a week or two? Samsung couldn't even do that with the US Galaxy S devices, and they're more plugged into the carriers than HP ever will be.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But carriers have passed. Sprint has too, obviously, but hasn't commented to that effect publicly. AT&T seems to have as well being that a GSM version using their bands is readily available, yet they won't carry it.

    HP was serious enough to send this device, along with WebOS 2.0, out for review to every tech journalist who still gave a whoop. They're serious enough to sell it directly on their site. That's all we have to judge for now, and it's abysmal.

    Sure, they have some "connected devices" strategy they keep talking up, but it's still just talk for now. We have no idea what that will consist of exactly, nor when it will arrive or how it will be positioned. Meanwhile, they are leading with their weakest blows....now.
    Let's hope this isn't HP being serious. Because it would signal to me that HP isn't that committed to making this work.

    As a few others keep saying, HP has made it that we're left to speculate. Is it a serious launch or not? Is HP's ability to get carriers on board that bad or are they really trying at this point? Why even launch the Pre 2 when they did? The benefits to HP don't seem to be outweighing the costs.
  16.    #16  
    My point still stands PRe2 is a Good phone it may not be top of the line compared to other phones running other OSes but for webOS it is the top of the line phone and way way better than any mid range Android phone and a lot of windows phone 7 phones that are not only being sold but pushed to customers rather aggressively.

    HP seems to be in the mood to relaunch the product but IMHO they would be better served by keeping the current user base intact because nothing beats word of mouth.

    Waiting for CES or MWC to announce something and delivering several months later will have no different result that the original PRE launch. Blackberry has the right idea, they have leaked a lot of information slowly and have kept their device in the limelight. Everybody understands that it will be coming out mid year next year but they are talking about it enough that people will wait to buy another device until they can make a comparison with playbook.

    This is the same strategy intel uses. Most technology blogs/sites will test the latest AMD processors and then in the footnote write something like oh but next gen intel processor will be coming out in the coming months.
    Last edited by sapient2k7; 12/03/2010 at 04:39 PM. Reason: clarification
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    If this is the case and it "could" happen, why does everything on their website say "coming soon" or "in the coming months"? They can't get a solid release date for when the carriers will approve 2.x or when Verizon will get around to releasing the device, but yet they're capable of executing a large scale announcement/launch in the span of a week or two? Samsung couldn't even do that with the US Galaxy S devices, and they're more plugged into the carriers than HP ever will be.
    Explain to me why HP can't plan/execute a large scale launch of anything related to webos? Are you foolish enough to compare samsung to HP? Everything on their website says coming soon because obviously it has to be coming soon. You can't have a release date on a product you have yet to announce. Who are you to say that samsung is more plugged into any carriers. Please don't make it seem as if cell phone providers are capable of showing favoritism to a specific hardware manufacturer or a company's os. It's all a business at the end of the day.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    So Verizon knows something better is coming in a few weeks, yet DELAYS the release of this, thereby costing them easy money from the handfuls of WebOS customers on Verizon who want this device? Sprint is "holding off" for a newer device just around the corner, yet Palm is entreating its customers to beg Sprint to carry the Pre 2?

    Finally, if Verizon "has this info" and decides it would be "a waste of money" to support the Pre 2, why agree to carry it in the first place?
    Lol dude did you just start off your argument by telling me that verizon is losing money on a device that only "handfuls" of customers want?The money is in the new customers,those waiting on webos specific hardware won't be going anywhere else to find it right now. I'm sorry but you have to accept the fact that verizon has better hardware to market than the pre 2. It's technology, therefore sometimes there will be delays. Sometimes companies give surveys or announce new hardware to test the waters for demand.I seriously doubt verizon wants another kin 1&2 debacle. Obviously Sprint has the largest webos community and if this were sprint we were talking about then i could understand where you're coming from a little more. However it's not and it's a fact that verizon is androids largest supporter just like att has the iphone. Move most of their customers to the iphone or a droid in verizon's case and the odds of that particular customer coming back increase. The pre 2 isn't tempting any new customers, if someone was to walk in a verizon store, nine times out of ten they would pick the phone with the larger screen, dual cameras or more apps. When it comes to the average consumer looking for top of the line hardware, right now palm/hp has nothing that can compete dude lets be honest.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Let's hope this isn't HP being serious. Because it would signal to me that HP isn't that committed to making this work.

    As a few others keep saying, HP has made it that we're left to speculate. Is it a serious launch or not? Is HP's ability to get carriers on board that bad or are they really trying at this point? Why even launch the Pre 2 when they did? The benefits to HP don't seem to be outweighing the costs.

    The benefits due outweigh the costs. I mean it's not like HP spent any money on R&D. They're simply releasing something palm already intended to release before they were scooped up. We need to look at the pre 2 as the developer phone for more apps to take advantage of webos 2.0. Outside of that the pre 2 isn't expected to make HP any profits.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by hesosmoove View Post
    Explain to me why HP can't plan/execute a large scale launch of anything related to webos? Are you foolish enough to compare samsung to HP?
    Great point. One is a serious and established player in the smartphone industry with robust sales, rock solid carrier agreements on all four major US carriers, and a certain future. The other is HP.

    HP can plan or execute anything they like. But in America, the carriers are the gatekeepers, and no manufacturer - whether it be Nokia, Sony, Apple or Google themselves - has been able to circumvent them. Apple might be the closest, but that's with a phenomenal high-end product that has been a success with both sales and customer satisfaction since announcement. HP is starting one with brand issues, relative failure in the aforementioned areas, and cheap hardware that they are still trying to pay people to buy.

    In other words, if anyone's going to be at the mercy of the carriers, it's HP. Only the carriers' plan and execution will matter.

    Everything on their website says coming soon because obviously it has to be coming soon. You can't have a release date on a product you have yet to announce. Who are you to say that samsung is more plugged into any carriers. Please don't make it seem as if cell phone providers are capable of showing favoritism to a specific hardware manufacturer or a company's os. It's all a business at the end of the day.
    Well, there's the small matter of Samsung making millions of people sign contracts for those carriers to get Galaxy S devices and Tab slates. I think that might play a part. But yeah...obviously looking at Verizon/Droid, T-Mobile & Sprint/Android, and ATT/iOS, cell phone providers are "incapable" of showing favoritism.

    Yep.
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