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  1. mike5's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Think about it. MS is much bigger and more powerful than HP ever will be. MS is working on an entire ecosystem that all of the carriers will want a piece of, and MS has a lot more experience in the smartphone arena. None of that helped the Kin which was possibly the biggest embarrassment in smartphone history.

    Now, somehow you think that HP and their $115B, (almost none of which is in smartphones) has got some sort of leverage with the carriers. Really? The Pre 2 has less appeal than the Kin 2, because the Kin is the forerunner to W7. W7 is leverage. Pre 2 has nothing to leverage.

    As I said, someone will carry the phone, but it won't be because they were in awe and fear of HP. It will also have a position of weakness, meaning HP will not be able to dictate terms. To believe anything else is just magical thinking.
    Need to check your facts. Annual revenue at MSFT is just over $62B from the last annual financial report. HP is at $115B. HP's revenues almost TWICE that of Microsoft.

    In reference to the Kin, I said if the phones/devices HP Palm put out are crap...unlike you, I don't think the Pre was crap. Here is a link to an article as to 4 reasons why the Kin failed: 1) lousy OS, 2) priced as a smart phone, but wasn't a smart phone, 3) no apps/games, & 4) lack of "cool factor."
    4 Reasons Why Microsoft’s Kin Phones Failed | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

    BTW, I never said carriers would be in awe or in fear of HP. I simply said they would carry the phones & in the end, because HP is invested so heavily in webOS, there will be better products in the future.
    Last edited by Mike5; 10/10/2010 at 07:52 PM.
  2. solarus's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    And you expect HP to put this relationship on the line to push a smartphone? I'll bet webOS smartphones aren't even mentioned next time HP talks to carriers about telecom equipment purchases because it's likely that the people in the room on both sides have nothing to do with smartphones.
    No I don't expect HP to put their relationship on the line and I also don't think HP will mention anything about the relationship in negotiations. What I am saying is that because of their already close relationship negotiations between HP and the carriers will be smooth and normal.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post
    Need to check your facts. Annual revenue at MSFT is just over $62B from the last annual financial report. HP is at $115B. HP's revenues almost TWICE that of Microsoft.
    The carriers don't give a rip about what HP made last quarter. No one will say, "We better carry this phone because HP sold a lot of printers.". HP has no leverage, as their current failures in the phone business attests.
  4. solarus's Avatar
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    #44  
    Another thing to keep in mind is that the carriers aren't in the business of phone hardware, they are in the business of wireless subscribers...and the competition for them is extremely intense. No carrier will pass up on HP phones, no matter how small the market share of WebOS as it could mean the difference between losing a customer or gaining one. Anyone dealing with the carrier's customer retention folks will know how far they will go to keep just a single customer.

    Due to WebOS' very small market share, HP's leverage position for subsidies and marketing support is extremely weak but that weakness will be reflected in the lack of marketing support by the carriers, not whether or not they will carry the device. HP are going to have to fork out tons of cash, probably just about all of it, for advertising and suffer from reduced or zero subsidies by the carriers but they're not going to have too much of a problem getting the carriers to carry their phones.
  5. #45  
    The answer to the OP's original question is a resounding "YES", and, to be honest, its severely ignorant to think otherwise; in fact, I take issue with the way the question was phrased, - so negatively proposed, but, I guess that its quite trendy to be pessimistic of HP/Palm/WebOS and anything related to their possible success in the smartphone arena, even in thier own forums, these days.

    WebOS as an operating system is still very unique and quite intuitive to use, compared to the current competing OS's. On the right hardware, its still going to be an incredibly easy device to use, and, yes, even more fun for some users -and NO carrier wants to tell their subscribers that they don't have "the best" devices out there - that implies that THEY are deficient in thier roles, which is not a good message to be sending out into the general public these days.

    Realizing the reality of the above statement, the introduction of a phone by the Palm division of HP will most certainly be taken seriously by not just the carriers, but the press and critics - if it is even moderately successful in its design goals, the media will state so in thier pre-release reviews, and the demand will be created there even before the consumer can touch the device, physically - then the HP marketting program will intensely follow through to expand on that.

    The REAL question is, therefore, can the next WebOS smartphone be one of "the best"?

    Answer that important question, and everything else will be irrelevant, despite the insinuation of the OP's post, which ignores the the fact that the real world smartphone market is still in its infancy, and VERY ripe for new, innovative, high quality devices, and carriers MUST be a very active participant in this area, or risk falling behind thier competition, IMO.
    Last edited by LCGuy; 10/11/2010 at 05:12 AM.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Actually, nobody knows the current sellthrough numbers of WebOS devices, and of those, a good percentage have passed on to other users through the secondhand market (eBay, Craigslist, refurbs, etc.).

    Yes, carriers love contract revenue, but they love prioritizing profitable devices even more. Verizon did not want to sell the Pre Plus for free with a free hotspot. That's a lot of projected revenue they lost out on, and they still couldn't give 'em all away before EOL.

    HP is really going to have to razzle dazzle at CES to make this a big thing again.
    "Nobody"??? Are you sure about that statement. I'd say the PreHaters are getting a little hperbolic these days...
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    ...
    I think the days are almost gone when carriers would take just any old piece of junk phone just to bolster their inventory. The bar is much higher, now.
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    When the rubber meets the road, some, if not all of the carriers will carry the next Palm phone...
    You seem to have all of the bases covered here, prediction-wise. No one is going to want to carry it, but some, if not all, are going to.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    The carriers don't give a rip about what HP made last quarter. No one will say, "We better carry this phone because HP sold a lot of printers.". HP has no leverage, as their current failures in the phone business attests.
    You really thin HP makes most of their money selling printers? Really?
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You really thin HP makes most of their money selling printers? Really?
    You really think HP makes most of their money selling phones? Really? Printers, cheap PCs, servers, you think any of these things makes carriers want to carry an HP phone? As I said, in the end, carriers will do it, but not because HP means anything to them. And, HP will have no negotiating leverage.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You really thin HP makes most of their money selling printers? Really?
    I thin it's the HP Enterprise Business Group. /end ricky ricardo voice
  11. mike5's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    The carriers don't give a rip about what HP made last quarter. No one will say, "We better carry this phone because HP sold a lot of printers.". HP has no leverage, as their current failures in the phone business attests.
    Ummm...you were the one who said Microsoft was much larger than HP. I was just correcting you & stating facts. You again prefer to insult/demean HP determining they have "no leverage" w/the phone carriers "because HP sold a lot of printers." You really should take a look at the HP annual report and or financial statements. You are really, and I mean really, mischaracterizing HP. I don't know if it is intentional or if you just haven't read the financial reports, etc.; furthermore, this recent buying spree they have gone on, though we may not see the results immediately, are truly different than selling "a lot of printers."

    Finally, you talk of HP's "current failures in the phone business.." Isn't that, in part why they bought Palm? They--HP--weren't successful previously in the phone business. Now they see an opportunity to create an entire ecosystem around webOS. It may succeed & it may fail--it is my hope it succeeds.

    They still may build bad phones or this 1st phone may be just the spec bump before their future phones really become part of the ecosystem. Again, I hope they build great phones. My only point is I believe all the carriers will want to have a relationship w/this behemoth & their ecosystem. I consider that leverage.
  12. Traxion's Avatar
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    #52  
    Printer and cheap PC sales were only 22% of their total annual income while enterprise solution's made up the rest.

    These are true statistics that I made up..... And i'm pretty sure I have a pie chart that proves it.
    "I will go in this way, but I'll find my own way out." -DMB

    Dear Lord,
    Please grant me the ability to punch people in the face over standard TCP/IP.
    Amen.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    HP have excellent ties in the telecommunications industry - they are a major supplier of equipment. That alone will ensure reasonable and rational negotiations between HP and the carriers. They probably won't get a whole lot of marketing support but since Verizon only market Droid phones (seriously when was the last time anyone saw a Blackberry ad on Verizon) and AT&T seem to be focused on trying to con us all into thinking their 3G network covers 97% of all Americans, that's not surprising.

    I would expect a major advertising blitz from HP - that will have the carriers excited at the prospect, even if the numbers won't necessarily, sorry won't , be iPhone or Droid2 like.



    Yeah but at least Google know its UI is a mess - that's why they've hired the guy responsible for our UI. I would expect some pretty impressive stuff from Android in a year or so.
    Well, I hoped that Palm/Pre would make it, but I am losing that hope. Now I'm sort of hoping that Android will copy the best parts of WebOS, at least with respect to user interface.

    Quote Originally Posted by errzone View Post
    I agree. I recently had a chance to play with a friend's EVO. The UI was sluggish, inertial scrolling wasn't consistent across apps and the multitude of customized home screens just screams segmentation. But the hardware specs on some of the android phones are truly lust worthy. I believe it's the hardware that is selling android right now.

    So HP does have a chance, if it can come out with a sexy device with really good hardware specs: say a 960x640 resolution screen, dual core 1Ghz processor, SGX540 gpu and at least 512 Meg of RAM.

    If Sharp can come out with a 960x640 res screen on their android ISO3 phone, then HP should be able to find some vendor out there capable of selling them that same screen.
    Yeah. I think if the Pre had been snappier when it came out, it would have done better. But it was sluggish and tended to freeze up. The OS competes well with the alternatives, and a minor upgrade with an eye towards being "enterprise friendly" and easier to write apps for is plenty in the software dept. But to have any chance of success, Palm/HP has to come up with really top-shelf hardware. I don't know if they can do that at a price anyone will buy, and even if they do, I'm afraid it might be too little too late.

    First quarter 2011? We shall see.
  14. #54  
    Will the carriers even want the next Pre?
    At least on carrier wants the next Palm Pre:
    http://forums.precentral.net/future-...lm-sfr-fr.html
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    You really think HP makes most of their money selling phones? Really? Printers, cheap PCs, servers, you think any of these things makes carriers want to carry an HP phone? As I said, in the end, carriers will do it, but not because HP means anything to them. And, HP will have no negotiating leverage.
    I don't think I said or even implied, anything like "HP makes most of their money selling phones" I suspect you pulled that little tidbit from the same place you pull most of the other facts.

    You're dead wrong about negotiating leverage though. You seem to be under the impression that HP depends on solely folks walking in the front door of a carrier or retail outlet to buy products. They don't, they have a wide distribution channel. Many of their customers will pick the phone first, and the carrier will be of secondary consideration.

    Yes, a big company ordering thousands of phones from HPalm and HP then gets to pick which carrier they make them for gives them some clout.

    Seriously, the PalmHaters in the crowed seem desperate to channel any bit of possible bad news into total gloom and doom around here.

    Like it or not, whether HP continues to sell phones long term or not, the simple fact is that HP will have bargaining power with the carriers if they choose to.

    Of course, if worse came to worse, they could just buy one of them.
  16. #56  
    will people be interested in the Pre 2 if they use the old form factor? Can a non-Blackberry sell a vertical slider nowadays?
  17.    #57  
    Hey, you know those smartphones you bought for your network last year that not so many people bought so you had to discount them to zero? You know the ones that you had to replace under warranty over and over again? Well, we've got more of 'em with the same hardware! How many should we put you down for this time?
  18. solarus's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Hey, you know those smartphones you bought for your network last year that not so many people bought so you had to discount them to zero? You know the ones that you had to replace under warranty over and over again? Well, we've got more of 'em with the same hardware! How many should we put you down for this time?
    Oh you mean the one's Palm's warranty service provider, not Sprint, not Verizon, not AT&T, covered warranty expenses for 1 year, or maybe you mean the one's covered after 1 year by the $7-8 extended warranties, the kind of extended warranties that are not needed yet required after 30 days from purchase and generate profits for both Assurance and the wireless provider.

    The only place the networks lost money on Palm phones was in marketing support, subsidies, and discounts, all of which are easily fixed by HP taking control of all marketing & subsidies and provide buy back provisions for the phones. Just because HP has close to zero leverage doesn't mean they can't get the phones on the networks easily. It just means it will be more expensive for HP to do. And since HP have publicly said they back WebOS smart-phones I'm gonna take a leap and say HP will pay the piper so to speak.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    HP will have no negotiating leverage.
    HP is probably who made most of the hardware on the backend of any cellular network, you know. It's very likely that HP could have more negotiating leverage than any of their competitors, except maybe Cisco or Alcatel-Lucent (the companies that make the actual wireless network hardware).
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    "Nobody"??? Are you sure about that statement. I'd say the PreHaters are getting a little hperbolic these days...
    Ok, show me someone who has the current sellthrough numbers. But first, get your quip game up.
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