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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I think Dell and HP have, in general, conceded the smartphone market to the Apples, RIMs, Samsungs, and HTC's of the world...
    Of course they have. That's why they (HP) have confirmed that they're pursuing the smartphone market, and keep talking about the millions of potential unit sales - it's all to throw us all off so they can give up on the smartphone market complete, and "concede" it to Apple, RIM, etc.

  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Of course they have. That's why they (HP) have confirmed that they're pursuing the smartphone market, and keep talking about the millions of potential unit sales - it's all to throw us all off so they can give up on the smartphone market complete, and "concede" it to Apple, RIM, etc.

    lol
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by kjb86 View Post
    ok fair enough. Maybe saturated was the wrong context.

    very competitive and cut throat. And I thinks that's how hp sees it. Since its in its prime (smartphone market) its ok for them to brand webos on tablets first to null the image it has
    Yeah, and HP has always avoided cuthroat markets, like printers and such...


    Ooops, never mind.
  4.    #44  
    From what I gathered from the HP presentation, the vast majority of those 200 people were sales/marketing/business people. So there'd be limited disruption to engineering and a HUGE plus for selling the stuff.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    You're the one who said, "By investing more manpower and capital in Palm they are speeding up all aspects of webOS development - software and hardware." So now you're disagreeing with yourself?
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post
    I will tell you what. After reading the article, it reemphasized to me what a big risk/investment HP is taking on in webOS & how much they must believe in it. They already had commitments & business relationships w/ Microsoft/Windows as well as Google/Android, yet are willing to risk those relationships in order to commit to webOS. I know webOS sells itself, but Mr. Rubenstein must have really put on a show/demonstration because HP's investment goes well beyond $1.2B.
    More money to be had selling a product you own, rather then one you license, to think they were gonna pay google and microsoft..
  7. Honis's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    You're the one who said, "By investing more manpower and capital in Palm they are speeding up all aspects of webOS development - software and hardware." So now you're disagreeing with yourself?

    But I'm glad to see you understand my point about the HP invasion. Yes, HP will infiltrate all aspects of Palm's old operation which gives Bradley the inside information he needs to make the changes he wants while he runs his new HP division.

    PS - I work for a large scale software development house with a worldwide scale. Adding 10 people to a 100-person team has a noticeable impact (on productivity and to a lesser degree morale as it is a disruption). It's actually a well-documented phenomenon. One guaranteed initial effect of adding a block of new people to an existing software project in order to speed it up is that the project will be further slowed down.
    I don't see how he disagreed with himself. Your "documented Phenomenon" is an observation of projects that are late and don't have enough tasks to be covered by the added engineers. With WebOS, it at least seems like it is on schedule. They said, before the acquisition, a major update would be released to carriers in the fall. The beta release of the SDK right before fall is a pretty good indicator they're on track (maybe even ahead). Adding more engineers at this point may be in prep for updating and adding the embedded applications which would be just entering implementation now that the OS is moving along. This is even assuming any of the 200 were software engineers.

    Two hundred employees sounds like a lot of people. Really it's not for larger companies. After filling/replacing the empty Palm marketing team, the executives that have jumped ship, any people they lassoed on their way out, etc. I'd think the 200 were mostly positions Palm has been trying or wanting to fill but couldn't thanks to budget. HP bragging about it may just be a way to calm the investors over spending $1.2 billion on a failing company and the lack of products coming from that company.


    Off topic comment: Am I the only software engineer that was making design decisions and deliverable changes to a project 2 weeks after being hired straight from college while learning a language I didn't know existed before being hired? The language was Ada but come on, I'm expected to learn any language in 2 weeks or less at my job. I didn't even have a good software background from college since the classes focused on hardware. We hire contractors that are making changes hours after finishing their training. I don't want to turn this into a peeing match but is this not an industry standard?
    Last edited by Honis; 09/29/2010 at 05:18 PM. Reason: clarifying after rereading things
    I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
    Device history: *free feature Phone*x3 -> LG Rumor -> Palm Pre -> HTC Arrive (3days) -> Samsung Nexus S 4G (28 days) -> Samsung Galaxy S II Sprint Epic 4G Touch -> Palm Pre -> Pre 3
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    I don't see how he disagreed with himself. The language was Ada but come on, I'm expected to learn any language in 2 weeks or less at my job.
    Ahhhh! Good old Ada. That language was so "wordy" that a woman must have developed it.

  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    I don't see how he disagreed with himself. Your "documented Phenomenon" is an observation of projects that are late and don't have enough tasks to be covered by the added engineers. With WebOS, it at least seems like it is on schedule.
    If you want to declare webOS to be 'on schedule' then everything is just fine without the extra people. I would think that an incomplete SDK for the current OS version, persistent problems with/omissions of functionality in the current OS, and the lack of even the most reasonable APIs would lead one to believe that a >20-month-old piece of software might be a little behind schedule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    They said, before the acquisition, a major update would be released to carriers in the fall. The beta release of the SDK right before fall is a pretty good indicator they're on track (maybe even ahead). Adding more engineers at this point may be in prep for updating and adding the embedded applications which would be just entering implementation now that the OS is moving along. This is even assuming any of the 200 were software engineers.
    This "update" schedule is one of many revised schedules. Last Winter, they were on track for new hardware and software in the summer of 2010. Sounds like a program that's behind schedule to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    Two hundred employees sounds like a lot of people. Really it's not for larger companies.
    Of course it's not - for exaple HP had 200 spare people sitting around looking for work. However, for a subdivision of a large company, one that was already only a few hundred people in size, this is a major cultural and technical injection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    After filling/replacing the empty Palm marketing team, the executives that have jumped ship, any people they lassoed on their way out, etc. I'd think the 200 were mostly positions Palm has been trying or wanting to fill but couldn't thanks to budget. HP bragging about it may just be a way to calm the investors over spending $1.2 billion on a failing company and the lack of products coming from that company.
    Yes, as I have been saying. And by putting those 200 into the types of positions you describe, Palm is ceding much of their former leadership/culture to the HP conquerors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    Off topic comment: Am I the only software engineer that was making design decisions and deliverable changes to a project 2 weeks after being hired straight from college while learning a language I didn't know existed before being hired? The language was Ada but come on, I'm expected to learn any language in 2 weeks or less at my job. I didn't even have a good software background from college since the classes focused on hardware. We hire contractors that are making changes hours after finishing their training. I don't want to turn this into a peeing match but is this not an industry standard?
    Clearly it depends on a couple of things (at least): 1. the type of software being developed and 2. the role of the individual within the development. A good code monkey can jump right in and start implementing someone else's design. It takes a whole different level of skill and experience with an existing software development effort to understand its architecture and topology enough to make all but the most simple decisions in a design.
  10. gbp
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It also shows that he's not steering the boat anymore, and that's probably for the best.
    I agree, besides, he must be busy with staffing the spots left by key people leaving the company. I guess 2011 is the year for them to come back strong.
  11. gbp
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    One guaranteed initial effect of adding a block of new people to an existing software project in order to speed it up is that the project will be further slowed down.
    True, however, it is inevitable, HP has to add more. There will be easily a hundred of the exiting employees who might have worked for each of the top guys left Palm (the marketing lady, the one who went to Nokia and the guy who went to Android).
  12. gbp
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Finally, do you really think HP had 200 superstars sitting around, drawing a paycheck, looking for something to do? The reality is HP did a call out through the company for certain skill sets and the managers responded with those people they could spare. Hmmm...I wonder why they could spare them? And why wait until now? Shouldn't this have happened on the day after the buyout? There were several months preceding the buyout that this plus-up could've been planned
    Nope, can't plan that way , it takes couple of months for the shake down. Don't know who is leaving and when. Take the case of the guy who went to Nokia two weeks back. He is a PALM lifer. He lived amongst the new folks from APPLE. Yet, he jumped the ship. Why ? Nokia came calling. Now Ruby has to put someone there. And its just not the new guy, its the new guy + entourage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    What those 200 represent is the first steps by HP to absorb what once used to be Palm into the HP culture, plain and simple. If HP really trusted Palm, why didn't they just tell Palm to go out and hire 200 people that Palm felt could do the job and fit into Palm's culture? The answer is simple - Tom Bradley wanted eyes and ears in the Palm spaces so he could control what's going on there (like when he used to be Palm's CEO). And when Ruby tries to force a decision against the grain of those 200 HP employees, Bradley will walk up to him, look him in the eye, yell THIS ... IS ... HP!!!, and kick Ruby into the well. Mark my words...
    I totally agree with you on the HP culture thing. Its natural to who who the boss is. However these new jobs are marketing jobs. The key positions are still with Palm. I can tell you from my personal experience, HP did that with Mercury Interactive few years back. But they never tinkered with the product design or core foundation. The day HPO ousts Ruby and other key engineering folks, I believe HP is really getting inside.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Finally, do you really think HP had 200 superstars sitting around, drawing a paycheck, looking for something to do? The reality is HP did a call out through the company for certain skill sets and the managers responded with those people they could spare. Hmmm...I wonder why they could spare them?
    If you're insinuating that only the dregs of HP were sent over, I think you're sorely mistaken. I work for a sizable company with international operations, and people get shifted around on a regular basis, and yes, this does include the "superstars." Managers may be reluctant to let go of their best people, but sometimes management does come down and hand-pick a few of them because they're needed on a project that has higher importance than their current project.

    I'm sure there was a range of abilities in the people that moved to the Palm division, and that includes some people with real talent that can get ramped up a lot faster than three months, let alone a year.
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    If you want to declare webOS to be 'on schedule' then everything is just fine without the extra people. I would think that an incomplete SDK for the current OS version, persistent problems with/omissions of functionality in the current OS, and the lack of even the most reasonable APIs would lead one to believe that a >20-month-old piece of software might be a little behind schedule.

    This "update" schedule is one of many revised schedules. Last Winter, they were on track for new hardware and software in the summer of 2010. Sounds like a program that's behind schedule to me.
    Age of the software has little or nothing to do with whether it's behind schedule or not. You're falling into the trap of comparing WebOS to other mobile OS's that have an extra year or more of development behind them. So far the only promised thing that hasn't been delivered "on time" is Flash. They promised new software in the summer (1.4.5 and the PDK apps) and promised a major update in the fall (2.0 I guess they're calling it now). I wasn't commenting on the hardware because they never announced a release schedule, except that "It's coming." I think Ruby said "soon" at one point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Of course it's not - for exaple HP had 200 spare people sitting around looking for work. However, for a subdivision of a large company, one that was already only a few hundred people in size, this is a major cultural and technical injection.
    Large companies like HP rarely let employees sit around for any length of time off a project. What is more likely, Palm posted some 200 positions internally with a few external and hired from there. Companies don't keep teams of employees on shelves just waiting for the perfect time to inject them into projects. Employees are a direct hit to the bottom line between, pension, 401k matching, actual pay, health benefits, etc. Even the lowest paid employee can cost 6 figures. By listing internally, people on the tail end of a project can jump to new projects and avoid the risk of a pink slip or get hired into an early promotion. I agree it's a large injection of culture, but I'm hoping Palm took that into consideration during the interview process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Yes, as I have been saying. And by putting those 200 into the types of positions you describe, Palm is ceding much of their former leadership/culture to the HP conquerors.
    Well, it can do some good for Palm. HP didn't get to be one of the largest companies in the world through poor management, marketing, etc. I'm leery about calling them conquerors. If HTC/Apple had gone the route of hostile take over, I'd call that conquering. It at least seems like Ruby was trying to find a company that would preserve most of Palms legacy.
    I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
    Device history: *free feature Phone*x3 -> LG Rumor -> Palm Pre -> HTC Arrive (3days) -> Samsung Nexus S 4G (28 days) -> Samsung Galaxy S II Sprint Epic 4G Touch -> Palm Pre -> Pre 3
  15. gbp
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Honis View Post
    Well, it can do some good for Palm. HP didn't get to be one of the largest companies in the world through poor management, marketing, etc. I'm leery about calling them conquerors. If HTC/Apple had gone the route of hostile take over, I'd call that conquering. It at least seems like Ruby was trying to find a company that would preserve most of Palms legacy.
    I agree with Ruby trying to find a good parent prior to merger. However , what Kupe said is true too. The paymaster will show who the boss is. The truth is in between HP letting PALM do what it does best while imposing its presence now and then.
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    #56  
    Let's see, HP decided for webOS phones & against Android & WM7 phones (I think), & committed to the webOS Pad/Slate so I could easily see a shifting of the jobs & emphasis of the people who work on these type devices.

    Furthermore, we know they all weren't engineers. We know some were sales & marketing.

    Finally, as far as super stars go--a few may have decided this is where there future is & actually VOLUNTEERED to go to HP Palm. I also think, even if it is just a "loan" or temporary, a good boss will let one of his rising starts branch out for the experience & to ensure the new/important project gets off on the right foot. Any good boss should be taking care of his young guns by broadening their experiences & preparing them for the next job.
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    #57  
    I don't think hp and dell have ceded the smartphone market. But they realize they don't have expertise in the fickle consumer market. Dell is making generic android phones to keep their toe in the water and adding tablets. They are guaranteed some sales through conservative IT purchases. HP is hoping for some consumer love from past Palm users (pda users, current webOS ownersetc) by buying Palm but also buying independence from the hordes eating from the android trough. Those with resources like RIM, Nokia, HP want to control their own destiny. Android benefits the 2nd tier smartphone companies like upcoming HTC or sliding into oblivion Motorola or dabblers in phones like samsung, sony who aren't sure they want to put in 100's of millions of dollars.
    The delay in next release of WebOS is expected with HP acquisition. The HP executives have to make sure device meets their expectations. There are more layers to traverse before things are approved. (still hoping october is release for a device even if verizon which I use)
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    so heres my question, would you risk the current mindshare and Webos users to Android, Apple, and Windows 7 to just wait and release a super phone on all 4 carriers at the same time like samsung did next year. Hoping that though you loose some customers now you double it next year with a tablet, and phones?
    If your position is weak like Palm's was then you take the best deal you can with one carrier that needs you. Like sprint-palm launching the Pre. If your financial position overall is strong then you can launch on all carriers but don't expect good prices, deals with carriers. Samsung is a huge company and I assume its phone product line is still small compared to their overall product line so they may not care about special deals.
  19. #59  
    so what is the chance for HPalm to release a device this fall, on any carrier regardless if its finished already waiting to contact carriers? To me looking at it I would think if and thats a big IF a smartphone is finished, and can be mass produced for the holiday on say atleast 2 networks, it would only help a company like HP in broadcasting Webos. To me IMO this would help set a stage for a webos tablet, launching next year, by once again putting webos in consumer faces over the holiday season.
  20. #60  
    I think you will see hardware and 2.0 before year end.
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