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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Android is selling so well because there are so many handsets on the market and it's what the carriers are pushing. It wasn't too long ago that Windows Mobile was doing pretty well because it, too, was on every carrier and sold by numerous vendors. Pure market saturation.
    The carriers push it because people buy it. That's the important part that's missing from your quote above.

    The Pre and Pixi are sold by the three largest domestic carriers, and they never caught fire at any of them. By contrast, the G1 sold well for T-Mobile. The Hero did great for Sprint, and the Droid was a phenomenon for Verizon. Every domestic carrier save for ATT uses Android as their hero platform. it's not because it's free, which it is not (at least in Smartphone form). It's not because Google pays them. It's because people want to buy the devices.

    It's rather simple. Sell well and get great customer interest and satisfaction, and carriers - in turn - want to carry more devices for that platform. Hence Android. Sell poorly and get mediocre customer satisfaction (have you seen the customer satisfaction ratings on Sprint for the Pre? Mediocre. The Hero is rated way, way, way higher, same as the Epic and Evo. Even the Touch pro 2 is rated much higher), and carriers - in turn - are not so hot on that platform.
  2. mulcher's Avatar
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    #42  
    The advantage Android has was they built the software, and let the competitive juices of all these hardware vendors slug it out making it bigger, faster & better.

    Now Palm had the advantage in that they controlled hardware and software which makes for a more holistic experience. The problem was, they were never a hardware company (most of the Treo's were manufactured by HTC). There hardware wasn't oudated on release, but wasn't cutting edge. It was cutting edge on announcement but cutting edge is now about 6 months in this hyper competitive environment. The Palm is going on almost 20 months from first demonstration to today without any material hardware update (beyond some extra RAM).

    Apple could pull it off because they could release cutting edge hardware (i.e. Retina) once per year and because...well...they are Apple.

    If Palm had licensed the OS before Android really got a foot hold and put all the hardware R&D into OS's, they could really have jumped out in front of Google. Plus, the 6 months Sprint exclusive really held things back. I love Sprint but they are the #3 carrier and not alot of people were going to dump verizon or AT&T just to buy a Pre.
    Mark F Chinsky
  3. mulcher's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by mulcher View Post
    The advantage Android has was they built the software, and let the competitive juices of all these hardware vendors slug it out making it bigger, faster & better.

    Now Palm had the advantage in that they controlled hardware and software which makes for a more holistic experience. The problem was, they were never a hardware company (most of the Treo's were manufactured by HTC). There hardware wasn't oudated on release, but wasn't cutting edge. It was cutting edge on announcement but cutting edge is now about 6 months in this hyper competitive environment. The Palm is going on almost 20 months from first demonstration to today without any material hardware update (beyond some extra RAM).

    Apple could pull it off because they could release cutting edge hardware (i.e. Retina) once per year and because...well...they are Apple.

    If Palm had licensed the OS before Android really got a foot hold and put all the hardware R&D into OS's, they could really have jumped out in front of Google. Plus, the 6 months Sprint exclusive really held things back. I love Sprint but they are the #3 carrier and not alot of people were going to dump verizon or AT&T just to buy a Pre.
    Miracles can still happen, but at this point, I think this is all a postmortem...
    Mark F Chinsky
  4. #44  
    PalmOS, Windows Mobile, and RIM have such a head start that there's no way that Apple can hope to make a dent in the market... No, wait, that's not right.

    Apple and RIM have such a head start that there's no way that Android can make a dent in the market... No, wait, that's not right, either.

    Okay, here we go: Apple, Android, and RIM have such a head start that there's no way that webOS under HP can make a dent in the market. Yeah, okay, that's better...

    Folks, this market is just getting started. Period. Between 2010 and 2015, 2.3 billion smartphones are expected to be sold, with a 22% CAGR. That means it's backloaded: what's been sold in 2010 is only a fraction of what's going to be sold over the next four years. The smartphone market is in what could be called a nascent stage--although it seems very large, it's only just now really starting to grow.

    If you honestly believe that Apple and Android have an insurmountable lead in this market, so much so that HP has to have a new industry-beating smartphone out this month or this quarter to compete, then you're just not understanding how something like this (i.e., business) works.

    Now, I won't say that HP/Palm will be able to take a #1 or even a #2 spot in smartphones any time soon, but #3 or #4 is certainly possible. And over the next few years, that would represent 10's of millions of units, plenty to interest developers and create a very compelling platform. Add in the incredible cloud infrastructure that HP's building out, both for consumer and enterprise customers (with their recent security investments), and HP/Palm could represent the most compelling overall infrastructure available.

    And that's not even considering that HP has the widest and deepest technology presence of any company on the planet, being the #1 PC maker, the #1 server maker (by $ volume), a very strong network infrastructure player, a strong telecom infrastructure player, one of the largest IT services firms, etc., etc. Oh, and they also have the largest (and most global) distribution channel, the most efficient supply chain (meaning they can charge less than others and still make a decent profit), an engineering corps that's 40,000 strong, and over 900 PhD's working on basic research at HP Labs.

    Nobody, including Apple, can create as compelling an offering over time as HP. And HP has communicated that they see connected mobile devices as strategically vital to their long-term success--in other words, they're intensely motivated to make webOS successful across the entire mobile market. They're also motivated to create synergistic relationships between their various products lines and markets (consumer and enterprise).

    To make the knee-jerk claim that HP better get a killer device out by the holidays or whenever, or else they're dead, is ridiculous on its face. It's completely ignorant of the greater market that HP is going for--smartphones are important, but mostly in terms of where they play relative to the entire product portfolio that makes up HP's $130+ billion annual revenues.

    It's also impossible for HP/Palm to do what so many people are calling for, because these things simply take time. HP's financial and other resources can make sure we get really cool things eventually, but no amount of money can change the fact that things like product design, field testing, carrier certification, and such just take a certain amount of time to complete.

    Certainly, anybody who's just dying for new hardware should consider moving on to another platform. Seriously. Go get an Android device, or an iPhone, or whatever, because who knows when HP/Palm will give you the smartphone you're looking for. If the prospect of waiting three months or six months or whatever is unacceptable to you, then don't. It's really pretty simple.

    But my golly, complaining over and over and over about the lack of new hardware when absolutely nothing has been promised to you is getting so terribly old. Personally, I like webOS enough, and dislike Android and iOS enough, that although I'm not tickled pink with limping along with my Sprint Pre I simply don't see any compelling reason to switch.

    But you won't find me making unrealistic demands that HP and Palm act RIGHT NOW!!!!!! to do things that it's simply going to take them longer to do. And I'm willing to look at the much larger picture and see that HP is building a very compelling and exciting long-term strategy that's precisely that--long-term. And, it has every chance of succeeding, regardless of what happens over the next few months.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmid7y View Post

    Google Android
    Also, there is no way to restore you phone, like webOS doctor does for the Pres and Pixis and iTunes does for the iPhones.

    Now, drum roll please...
    WRONG... that's what a nandroid backup and restore is, do some reading before posting. it's by far the easiest to restore to factory or any state.
  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by fixxxer1022 View Post
    WRONG... that's what a nandroid backup and restore is, do some reading before posting. it's by far the easiest to restore to factory or any state.
    Oh, I didn't know that was a Google-made feature, like webOSDr and iTunes restore are developed by Palm and Apple, respectively. Oh wait, it's not. Trust me, I spend most of my spare time reading about this stuff.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmid7y View Post
    Oh, I didn't know that was a Google-made feature, like webOSDr and iTunes restore are developed by Palm and Apple, respectively. Oh wait, it's not. Trust me, I spend most of my spare time reading about this stuff.
    Um,

    The only people who are going to brick their phones, are those messing around with ROMS and stuff.

    If you are messing around with ROMS and you have read ANY of the many write ups on the web, you will backup your ROM and be able to restore.

    If you don't dabble in that, why do you need a restore application? If it goes down by itself, go trade it in.
  8. #48  
    I see what you're saying, Wynand32, but again...I think you're not seeing that the timing is relative, not absolute.

    Of course, the smartphone market will go on for quite some time, and just as Palm, WinMo, and RIMs stints at the top of the heap were finite, so will be Apple's or Android's. But the timing of this next WebOS handset isn't just relative to their competitors' offerings, but also those of Palm currently atrophying on store shelves.

    WebOS hardware and software in its current state is what makes this so urgent. Not how big the smartphone market will or won't grow in the next three years. Not how many Droids Verizon is going launch in the next two hours. It's the Pre, Pixi, and WebOS 1.4.5.

    Every time someone walks into a store and messes around with the OS, they see how sluggish it is in comparison to current high-end devices. They see how tiny the screens are. If they research it, they see how few apps there are or how many reports of bad build quality there are. And this stuff makes a few more bad first impressions every. single. day. that HP doesn't release vastly superior hardware and software.

    Worst yet, for the faithful that have already bought in, HP's silence similarly erodes at their stamina. People get tempted by faster, more powerful, bigger screen handsets with more apps and way more mindshare.

    This makes a relaunch much more complicated and involved, even for a company of HP's stature, resources, and channels because they aren't hitting the market with a brand new commodity and going full court blitz. They are salvaging and relaunching a failed brand that HP is actually paying people to take in its current form. And this isn't a WinMo 6.x to Windows Phone 7 radical makeover. WebOS 2.0 - from what we have seen thus far - isn't radically different from the current in look or feel.

    Hopefully, they have a lot more surprises in store...
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmid7y View Post
    Oh, I didn't know that was a Google-made feature, like webOSDr and iTunes restore are developed by Palm and Apple, respectively. Oh wait, it's not. Trust me, I spend most of my spare time reading about this stuff.
    Actually, as of Froyo (Android 2.2) everything is stored in the cloud (as in all your settings, apps, etc.)
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I see what you're saying, Wynand32, but again...I think you're not seeing that the timing is relative, not absolute.

    Of course, the smartphone market will go on for quite some time, and just as Palm, WinMo, and RIMs stints at the top of the heap were finite, so will be Apple's or Android's. But the timing of this next WebOS handset isn't just relative to their competitors' offerings, but also those of Palm currently atrophying on store shelves.

    WebOS hardware and software in its current state is what makes this so urgent. Not how big the smartphone market will or won't grow in the next three years. Not how many Droids Verizon is going launch in the next two hours. It's the Pre, Pixi, and WebOS 1.4.5.

    Every time someone walks into a store and messes around with the OS, they see how sluggish it is in comparison to current high-end devices. They see how tiny the screens are. If they research it, they see how few apps there are or how many reports of bad build quality there are. And this stuff makes a few more bad first impressions every. single. day. that HP doesn't release vastly superior hardware and software.

    Worst yet, for the faithful that have already bought in, HP's silence similarly erodes at their stamina. People get tempted by faster, more powerful, bigger screen handsets with more apps and way more mindshare.

    This makes a relaunch much more complicated and involved, even for a company of HP's stature, resources, and channels because they aren't hitting the market with a brand new commodity and going full court blitz. They are salvaging and relaunching a failed brand that HP is actually paying people to take in its current form. And this isn't a WinMo 6.x to Windows Phone 7 radical makeover. WebOS 2.0 - from what we have seen thus far - isn't radically different from the current in look or feel.

    Hopefully, they have a lot more surprises in store...
    Honestly, I'm not following you. My most basic position is: HP and Palm are moving as fast as they can, and no amount of complaining or whining on these boards is going to enable them to miraculously move any faster. And that's true regardless of how this impacts their future position--it's not like merely realizing that one is in a tough spot somehow enables one to overcome it.

    That said, my ancillary point is that what happens now, and for the next few months, won't make a difference in their long-term success in the market. Yes, of course, it makes a difference for people looking for smartphones today. And yes, HP and Palm are losing potential customers right now, along with actual customers who migrate to other platforms--and those customers will be lost for at least a year. But that says nothing about customers looking to purchase smartphones six months from now.

    This is where your last paragraph is most confusing to me, because you seem to be saying that it's today's webOS and hardware that will make HP and Palm's future efforts more difficult. I don't get that. It's not as if a smartphone customer looking at the available options in March 2011 is going to think back to the state of webOS and Palm devices today in making their purchase decision.

    Of course, they won't. What they'll look at are the options sitting on the shelves at that point. Now, granted, the state of the App Catalog will be a factor, but I'm assuming that once all of the APIs are available (e.g., microphone and camera), we'll at least have feature parity in apps if not sheer quantity (which I think is overblown in its importance). We don't need hundreds of the same kinds of apps, we just need good options in the major categories, and we're already close to that today.

    At that point, HP will be able to throw all of their marketing and distribution muscle at the problem, which means more than just advertising. Consider all of the assets that HP will be able to leverage: their relationships with carriers (by virtue of providing telecom equipment to most of them), their enterprise presence, their ability to creatively bundle products (buy a notebook, get a free smartphone!), their supply chain strengths (which allow them to source the highest quality components at the lowest costs), etc. Not to mention that HP has the largest global presence of any current player in the smartphone market, and as much money to spend on advertising as anybody has.

    Also, HP will be able to put webOS on the widest range of products, including smartphones, tablets, netbooks, multifunction devices (scanners and printers), and even as the instant-on option for notebooks and desktops. Nobody, including Apple, can even come close to the number of devices that HP can throw out there. We're talking 10's of millions of units of different kinds of devices offering capabilities (such as scanning documents to the cloud) that nobody else can even dream about providing.

    Now, granted, all of that will take time, as will the unparalleled cloud computing platform that HP is currently building. But that's my point exactly: HP and Palm have the time to do things right. And to reiterate my point, they simply have to take a long-term view of things, because there's literally nothing they can do in the short-term to stem the bleeding.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    WebOS 2.0 - from what we have seen thus far - isn't radically different from the current in look or feel.
    Also, I disagree with this assessment. I think webOS 2.0 takes what's best about webOS 1.X--Synergy, Just Type, and multitasking--to a level that will finally allow developers to do some seemingly miraculous things. We're going to see some incredible things, I believe, that will put other mobile OSs to shame.

    I mean, webOS is already widely recognized as one of the best, if not the best, mobile OS that just lacks better hardware. After playing around with iOS and Android, I think that assessment is spot on. Give me webOS 2.0, and I think we're talking about an unbeatable experience.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  12. #52  
    Wynand32 is spot on in his assessment. I saw the computer industry in its infancy, and suspect that the pattern with the smartphone could be much the same.

    In the early days of the PC, there were some very dominant names (IBM, Radio Shack, Apple (no, not the Mac, the II series), Commodore, Atari). Some of those companies' brands went away (IE IBM and Radio Shack), while some of them dratically changed (Apple, Commodore, Atari). Eventually, the market went a direction that nobody even thought about (at the time), with hardware manufacture becoming secondary to the OS (can anyone say Android?). Some of the players in the PC market that had "died" made varying levels of comebacks, including Apple made with their "we make it all" business mode. Not enough to totally capture the market, but certainly enough to become viable, while IBM concentrated on hardware and left the OS to Microsoft (and others) this time.

    My point in this is that some very big name companies did poorly in the early days of the PC (IBM for instance), and some smaller companies did well and made names for themselves. Plus, as the industry matured the players changed. Finally, the direction the market took was not really predicted even by the "winners" in the game (Microsoft initially developed MS-DOS simply as a vehicle to sell their applications, they did not "intend" to be an OS company).

    The smartphone market is way too young to declare final winners and losers, and decide who's "dead" and who isn't. The 5 year predictions are almost laughable. The potential in "wind change" in this market is much greater now (due to advances in hardware technologies) than it was then.
  13. #53  
    Wynand32 & hparsons - GREAT discussion. I agree with you guys. It's easy to focus on the short term, but a broader long-term overview reveals the potentially significant impact that HP can have in the mobility marketplace if they take advantage of what Palm's innovation can offer to both consumers and enterprise users.
  14. #54  
    MARKETING

    MARKETING TAKES $$$ (most of the time)

    HP has $, there is hope

    -----------------

    Droid kicked *** because of marketing and they hit the demographic right -kids/20s

    Iphone was just paradigm shift cool - not likely to happen again

    BBerry is still living off being the 1st texter and corp friendly -

    If Win7 has a shot, so does WebOS - it is nice after all to have the best OS - just nd hardware and MARKETING
  15. preryan's Avatar
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    #55  
    The world would be a radically different place if companies listened to the nay sayers here.

    Sears and Kmart ruled the retail market for a long time. That little company out of Arkansas should never have taken them on.

    Atari should be the only gaming console. Nintendo, Sega, Xbox, and Sony should have never tried.

    We should all still be creating computer programs in Fortran and Basic on our Commodore 64s. Why would any other company try to make computers when they had such a market share?

    Motorola and Nokia ruled the cell phone market for a while. Why would LG, Samsung and others even bother to try?

    Toyota was a laughing stock that built extremely unreliable cars when they were first imported to the US. They should have given up. They couldn't beat Ford, GM, Chrysler and AMC could they?

    I am not saying that HPalm will or will not over take RIM, Apple or Andriod in the smartphone market. I AM saying that eventually someone will. Someone will build a better smartphone with a better OS with good marketing and they will. And whoever that someone is will have all the problems that the negative people here say. The new smartphone will have no market share and no apps (remeber Apple and Google had few apps at first.)

    I hope that HPalm does not listen to you. I also hope that the guys at Meego and Winmo7 do not listen to you cause they have no hope either, right?
  16. delta7's Avatar
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    #56  
    Webos needs a crap load of work, at 500mhz with 256mb of ram the sprint pre is awfully slow, youtube video freezes constantly, google maps takes a while to load, sorry but webos may be pretty with a good multitasking but the phone itself is frustrating to use especially during the delays.

    Windows 7 is coming this month for gsm networks, big money microsoft will push the hell out of it and give incentives for developers to make apps for it and with MS bank account I would be surprised if they suceed and gain marketshare, especially since this is a ground up OS and from what we see it looks pretty good so far.

    HP Palm has to battle MS and RIM. Pam and Ms are in the same spot, starting over from scratch and to be honest I trust Windows Phone 7 over Webos with the idea of gaining ground. MS has the funds and see to be getting the word out about the phone while HP is pratically standing still, giving minimal os upgrades while not address the key issue with the slowness and functionality of the OS.

    HP Should be trying to get big banks to at least make a banking app for the phone, stores and so forth and try to pursue them to make a webos app but we've heard nothing at all.

    To be honest, anyone with a sprint pre who is stuck in contract like me is pretty ****ed, with the software issues that the pre has, also the slowness, Palm and Sprint should be giving me a early upgrade to get a better phone, not leaving me frustrated with a slow os.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by delta7 View Post
    Webos needs a crap load of work, at 500mhz with 256mb of ram the sprint pre is awfully slow, youtube video freezes constantly, google maps takes a while to load, sorry but webos may be pretty with a good multitasking but the phone itself is frustrating to use especially during the delays.

    Windows 7 is coming this month for gsm networks, big money microsoft will push the hell out of it and give incentives for developers to make apps for it and with MS bank account I would be surprised if they suceed and gain marketshare, especially since this is a ground up OS and from what we see it looks pretty good so far.

    HP Palm has to battle MS and RIM. Pam and Ms are in the same spot, starting over from scratch and to be honest I trust Windows Phone 7 over Webos with the idea of gaining ground. MS has the funds and see to be getting the word out about the phone while HP is pratically standing still, giving minimal os upgrades while not address the key issue with the slowness and functionality of the OS.

    HP Should be trying to get big banks to at least make a banking app for the phone, stores and so forth and try to pursue them to make a webos app but we've heard nothing at all.

    To be honest, anyone with a sprint pre who is stuck in contract like me is pretty ****ed, with the software issues that the pre has, also the slowness, Palm and Sprint should be giving me a early upgrade to get a better phone, not leaving me frustrated with a slow os.
    i have a sprint pre. i love it. it was frustrating, then i tweaked it, and now i love it. i haven't had any sofware issues, and when i had to get a replacements becuse of hardware, it was due to abuse.

    i'm not saying webOS couldn't stand to be tweaked some. i'm just saying that if you maybe do some tweaking yourself, you may be less frustrated until you can get a new phone.
  18. dtreo's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Also, I disagree with this assessment. I think webOS 2.0 takes what's best about webOS 1.X--Synergy, Just Type, and multitasking--to a level that will finally allow developers to do some seemingly miraculous things. We're going to see some incredible things, I believe, that will put other mobile OSs to shame.

    I mean, webOS is already widely recognized as one of the best, if not the best, mobile OS that just lacks better hardware. After playing around with iOS and Android, I think that assessment is spot on. Give me webOS 2.0, and I think we're talking about an unbeatable experience.

    Good discussion. What I simply want now is the Treo 755p or 800w keyboard and a solid day's worth of battery life running WebOS 2.0 smoothly. Those are the main 2 reasons why I won't get a current Pre like my wife uses, even though I love the form and basic functions. Speed it up, get the keyboard back to what made so many Treos great, and give it reasonable battery life for a typical business traveler like Treos used to dominate.

    One of the main issues is that the smartphone market used to be only business travelers with Treos and BBs (I've enjoyed both). These days, most soccer moms have iPhones, as well as the college kid market. The smartphone market is growing leaps and bounds due to the mass move from basic flip and feature phones to smartphones by people that have dissimilar needs. Most everyone on this board has high expectations for their smartphone capabilities compared to people getting an iPhone because it happens to be a really decent camera. It's obvious that the growth in the market is not simply a shift of current users, but an explosive growth of new smartphone users.

    Obviously, HP has a lot of focus on business products and services, as opposed to the bulk of Google or Apple efforts in the consumer space. For my needs, I hope that means that they advance the Palm products for typical business users. I really could care less about phone gaming and social networking apps, or finding a parking space on my phone. This may be very different from other people's needs, but a forum like this is full of people debating a product pros/cons from very different positions of need. The debates are always fun to read, but keep in mind that you often have very, very different needs from others who critique the same device.

    ...of course, we can always use more fart apps.
  19. bille's Avatar
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    #59  
    I've had a couple of Palms (Treo 750 and a Pro) and loved them but where is is the next generation from Palm/HP??

    Palm withdrew from this part of the world (Western Pacific - Australia in particular) at least a year ago, since then accessories off the shelf are non existent (Always were scarce) and of course phones can't be sourced from Australian Telcos.... Couple of months ago I needed a new business oriented phone and was really left no choice but to go to Blackberry 9700...plenty of accessories, choice of models etc. If HP don't get off their freckle this market will be lost altogether.

    Couple of weeks back I was in Dubai (UAE) and saw a phone store with a big orange PALM banner, so in I went and asked the guys behind the counter what models they had....Just got a blank stare from them all....

    So I spoke a little slower and tried speaking clearer only to be told that all the Palms were a long long way away "Sir...Try night safari tour in desert for Palms", this cracked us both up, I looked around the shop couldn't see any Palm phones, pointed at the orange PALM sign, they guy just shrugged so we walked out....

    If Palm/HP bring out a business model with all the features of the Pro with a faster processor and screen resolution at least as good or better than the Blackberry 9700 still with a qwerty KB and the Touch screen they might claw back what they have lost other wise they are history.

    Damn pity.
    Last edited by bille; 10/03/2010 at 03:04 AM. Reason: additional info/comment added.
    Treo 750 WM6.0 + Treo Pro WM6.1
    Carrier:Telstra Australia NextG (3G).
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