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  1. #21  
    Well...I was breathing and thinking and decided to upgrade to the Epic when I was eligible. I have no regrets. I didn't dislike my pre and I really loved WebOS, but the phone was really lacking and after playing around, I don't find Android to be the awful experience that a lot on this forum are making it out to be. Besides, if it was so bad, why are Android phones selling like hotcakes? You can't even find Evos anywhere.

    As for your reviews...

    iPhone: If the form factor was so bad, why is it the top selling smartphone in the world? Don't forget that it has hundred of thousands of apps. Yes, many of them are crap, but many of them are awesome as well. And it's the best gaming phone by a mile. I agree with you about AT&T; they are the only reason why I didn't switch to the iPhone4.

    BlackBerry: They are probably the best for what they do: email and messaging. You also forgot to mention that most BlackBerry devices have sick battery life. My brother. Bold 9700 lasts three days with fairly heavy usage. I couldn't even get a day on my Pre with stock battery and I can probably get a little over a day's usage with my Epic. Other than that, yes, the OS sucks (though the tablet looks cool).

    Android: Yes, it is fragmented, but you still have many, many apps that you can't dream of finding on a Pre. I can actually use Google Voice to make free calls to Canada with my Epic. I could only do that with my Pre until the developer canned that app. Nobody else filled the gap. And the hardware on my Epic is out of this world. I don't want to have to overclock a device to get a reasonable speed. As for the Android platform itself, it's not all that bad. WebOS is easier to use, but I got used to Android. I haven't figured out how to root the device yet. Stock Android itself is ugly, but SenseUI and Touchwiz make it more than tolerable. Not sure I'd be as glowing if I had a Droid.

    Palm Pre: You seem to think it's the perfect phone with no flaws. My Pre is falling apart. Cracks on the side, USB cover gone, power button came off, bad oreo effect...you name it. And these problems have been with my phone for a while. Also, as easy as it is to use, WebOS is incomplete. I really shouldn't have to root the phone to view email or texts in landscape mode or get a virtual keyboard (which didn't work after the last update). And what about apps? How many does WebOS have? Do they even have a legit MS document editing app? And battery life with the stock battery? You don't think that's a con?

    I want Palm/HP to succeed and I may go back to them if they release a great device in the future, but the Pre is very outdated technology and WebOS in its present form is incomplete compared to everything else out there.
  2. mike5's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmid7y View Post
    I am not saying this is good for the long run. I am saying for right now. Kinda like right now, Apple is fine with being on one carrier. In the future, they will be on multiple in the US. Just like, the the future, we will see a new Palm phone.
    It seems obvious, vendors are liquidating the remaining inventory of the Pre. They are giving them away. This indicates to me something else is coming. I love webOS, but if HP doesn't update the hardware, they are making a huge mistake.

    Since you don't define "the long run," I am not sure if you are talking 6 months, 1 year, 3 years, or what? I want HP to put out a high quality product, but it is my contention if they don't improve hardware on their next Pre phone--whenever it comes out--they are making a huge mistake.
  3. #23  
    Again, what Pros/Cons a device has are quite subjective. I personally have been using a keyboard since my Sony Clie TG50, so it's a must and one of the item's an iPhone is lacking. Many people like the virtual keyboard experience. I do not (yes, I have used the vkb on an iPhone). I could also list a number of things that the iPhone lacked compared to my Treo when it first came out that made my decision for me (most of those were corrected when the 3GS came out). I was disappointed to find some when I actually got my Pre. The homebrew community and Palm's release schedule (until 1.4.5) has helped with most of these and I anticipate that WebOS 2.0 will solve a lot of issues for both users and developers.

    There's a lot to like about Android, we had to make a choice about a smartphone platform to choose for our group (I work in IT) and I chose Android as the Palm platform is still immature and needs the homebrew community to do some things that Android does well already. On the other hand, my consumer device is a Palm Pre and I wouldn't switch to Android. I looked at the original Droid and decided that if I had gone straight from my Treo to that device, I wouldn't have looked back, but having been on WebOS, I couldn't live with the subpar multitasking & notification system (there's other things I've found since having the Droid 2 for a few days).

    The reason that Palm needs new hardware (regardless of network) is that the Pre just isn't capable of showing what WebOS can truly do. If I didn't have an overclocked processor, I would have to live with staggering animation and stuttering video/music playback much more often than I do (not to mention the "Too many cards" and of course the battery life).

    Other people have also complained about build quality. I've personally been lucky, but I don't doubt that there's a substantial percentage of customers who haven't been.

    One thing that Apple prides themselves on is a seamless experience (the JB community doesn't count as Apple doesn't sanction customizations) which I believe Palm can have with faster processors.

    I believe that Palm can do better with their second try and I look forward to it, but I'm not going to sugarcoat their flaws. People have reason to want new hardware and I wouldn't dismiss any of them, whatever the reason.

    I applaud people like Bonanzabucks who keep an open mind and would be willing to try the next Palm device. There's more than a few who have switched to Android or an iPhone and won't come back.
  4.    #24  
    I really appreciate the replies guys. And no, I know the pre isn't a perfect phone, but we seem to always bash palm and what they aren't doing. Let's give them a high five for doing some things right. Yes, the pre has build quality issues (my sprint pre doesn't) and that's why I put lack of new hardware on Sprint. As a member said on the first page, it's hard to please everyone. Also, I never said the iPhone was a bad form factor, I said Apple has only 1 device. I really do hope iOS, Android, and wp7 are good for you guys. I used an EVO for 2 weeks and came back to my pre. I bought an iPad and returned it to wait for a PalmPad. I know webOS is right for me right now. Some of you talk about incomplete OSs, I think WP7 is a perfect example of that. No multi tasking? Anyway, keep giving your opinions and I really appreciate it.
  5. #25  
    I might be te only one who thinks this but isn't the resolution difference between the Pre and Pixi having some fragmentation reguarding apps. It's not as bad as Android but it's still there...
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by iTz Nicholas72 View Post
    I might be te only one who thinks this but isn't the resolution difference between the Pre and Pixi having some fragmentation reguarding apps. It's not as bad as Android but it's still there...
    Great point, but I consider it no different than the 3GS and the iPhone 4's resolution. In Palm's case, I would rather have a little fragmentation opposed to not having different form factors.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by iTz Nicholas72 View Post
    I might be te only one who thinks this but isn't the resolution difference between the Pre and Pixi having some fragmentation reguarding apps. It's not as bad as Android but it's still there...
    Unless a developer isn't following the UI guidelines or it's a game there should be no reason for there to be problems displaying on either device.
  8. #28  
    Fragmentation generally refers to differences in OS versions across devices. It happened with Windows Mobile, and it's happening with Android. Really, it's inevitable--when you have so many manufacturers making so many devices across so many carriers, fragmentation is inevitable. It's one of the (many) downsides to how Microsoft used to sell Windows Mobile (and specifically is not planning to sell Windows Phone 7) and how Google gives away Android.

    The term fragmentation doesn't really apply across devices with different hardware but from the same manufacturer and running the same OS (the question of carriers getting devices out of sync is another thing entirely). The reason I say this is because, e.g., in Palm's case, the OS can simply look for hardware differences and enable/configure things accordingly. Imagine if HP/Palm release one version of a smartphone with a front-facing camera, and one without. webOS can simply enable things related to the FFC for the one version that don't show up in the other.

    Now, HP/Palm could fragment webOS by having a version for smartphones, a version for tablets, a version for multifunction devices, etc. This would be the same scenario as iOS, which I believe has different versions for the iPod Touch, the iPhone, and the iPad. But webOS could, and hopefully will, be the same across devices, with configuration files that look at the hardware its running on and adjusts accordingly. But, HP/Palm doesn't have to do that because they're in control of both the hardware and the OS.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  9. #29  
    What do you people....the people who usually get the hottest and newest phone of your OS choice when availible....care about fragmentation?

    To the same degree, what does someone who buys a new phone every 4 years going to care about fragmentation?

    As long as the phone they original bought works and the apps the bougth work....why would they be mad their are better devices or a small handful of apps that won't work on their device? People act like this ridiculous android fragmentation issue is something anyone really cares about. Its such a small percentage of buyers. Out of the things that android can be improved off of, fragmentation is the least of my worries right now because i know i'll probably continue upgrading once a year since I'm a tech head and love new devices.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain Mantis View Post
    What do you people....the people who usually get the hottest and newest phone of your OS choice when availible....care about fragmentation?
    Agreed. Defined:

    Fragmentation (frag men TAY shun).
    1. The unsupported belief that a device running perfectly fine on a release OS must be able to run all future versions of that OS, in perpetuity, at the precise moment a new OS is made available. See also: pipe-dream, red herring, nothing-to-see-here.
    2. The non sequitur argument put forth by aficionados of a declining OS as a perceived shortcoming of a successful OS. See also: <sad>.
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 09/29/2010 at 11:00 PM. Reason: trolling comment
  11. #31  
    While it isn't fragmentation, there are some drawbacks to so many different manufactures... I read this thread, then saw the front page article and thought it should be noted...

    http://www.precentral.net/webos-andr...hich-more-open

    To sum it up, each manufacture isn't necessarily making restore utilities and because of differences in hardware, it is out of Google's hands. Apparently it is easier to brick an Android device.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Fragmentation matters to developers because you either have to target your app to the lowest common denominator or cut off a bunch of your target market. For example, what do you do with the screen aspect ratio of the Pixi? Cut off part of the screen for Pixi users or just leave a black bar for Pre users? What do you do if the next webOS smartphones lack a keyboard. Switch your UI to touch-screen only and forget the hardware keyboard?
    I've moved back and forth on my position of Pre vs. Pixi. So far, everything I have done is in somewhat of a list form and lists migrate well back and forth. I can easily see games not being a problem. Imagine a game for PC, many games compensate for different screen resolutions and aspect ratios... It's just a matter of positioning elements from a particular screen edge which is not as big a deal as having to code cross different OS versions and completely different hardware.

    EDIT: after further thought on this, the PC is a good example to Android. Not all games will run on all PCs. When you throw direct X versions into the mix even more PCs could be not compatible, how many PCs have direct X 11 video cards? Also, you can sell a PC game for much more $$ than a mobile device, so it is more worth while to make adjustable performance settings and compensations for different hardware. – Sorry just a brain fart I had.
  13. #33  
    if my eyes were better I would have gone pixi. i needed the bigger screen, and I will get the next webOS phone if it has a bigger screen than the Pre - assuming it's not too big.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Fragmentation matters to developers because you either have to target your app to the lowest common denominator or cut off a bunch of your target market. For example, what do you do with the screen aspect ratio of the Pixi? Cut off part of the screen for Pixi users or just leave a black bar for Pre users? What do you do if the next webOS smartphones lack a keyboard. Switch your UI to touch-screen only and forget the hardware keyboard?
    It isn't any different on the iPhone.

    Many are still targeting iPhone 3G specs because i believe that is the most common iphone on the market. Its no different with any piece of hardware.

    Games i'll say suffers the most cause of it on android, but pretty much every other app doesn't need super powerful hardware to run so most work just fine. Google has also stated Froyo is a solid base and that they will slow down their big software updates moving forward.

    I think more people are buying the high powered android devices anyway than the low powered crap being released with android 1.6. Hell, i hope Google isn't giving the blessing of the Android Market for anything being released with 1.6 these days.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Fragmentation matters to developers because you either have to target your app to the lowest common denominator or cut off a bunch of your target market. For example, what do you do with the screen aspect ratio of the Pixi? Cut off part of the screen for Pixi users or just leave a black bar for Pre users? What do you do if the next webOS smartphones lack a keyboard. Switch your UI to touch-screen only and forget the hardware keyboard?
    One of the nice features of Android is it's 'API Level' tagging system. This integer tag is compared between a device and an app to determine if the app will be compatible with the device. This makes targeting a certain API Level a snap for developers, prevents a user from installing an incompatible program, and is an elegant way to deal with a rapidly evolving hardware and software ecology. The alternative, stagnant/bureaucratic software and hardware standards boards that a unsatisfactory to both app developers and hardware manufacturers.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Agreed. Defined:

    Fragmentation (frag men TAY shun).
    1. The unsupported belief that a device running perfectly fine on a release OS must be able to run all future versions of that OS, in perpetuity, at the precise moment a new OS is made available. See also: pipe-dream, red herring, nothing-to-see-here.
    2. The non sequitur argument put forth by aficionados of a declining OS as a perceived shortcoming of a successful OS. See also: <sad>.
    It's <sad> that you post this on a smartphone website. Yes, we care about this stuff.
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 09/29/2010 at 11:01 PM. Reason: quoted text edited
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Agreed. Defined:

    Fragmentation (frag men TAY shun).
    1. The unsupported belief that a device running perfectly fine on a release OS must be able to run all future versions of that OS, in perpetuity, at the precise moment a new OS is made available. See also: pipe-dream, red herring, nothing-to-see-here.
    2. The non sequitur argument put forth by aficionados of a declining OS as a perceived shortcoming of a successful OS. See also: <sad>.
    I think you're misunderstanding what the true issue of fragmentation is with the Android platform. It's not that older phones won't get official updates to new OS versions, it's that there are no standards enforced across the platform. The end result being new devices shipping with old versions of the OS with no guarantee that they will be properly brought up to date. I feel this is one of the primary reasons that while there are a ton of Android apps available in the Market now, the overall quality is terrible. Developers have to create their apps with low spec hardware running dated OS versions in mind.

    Back on topic. I went from my (Sprint) Pre to Android, and now back to my Pre. Even without new hardware I'm happy with my Pre. Although I wouldn't be nearly as happy with it right now if it weren't for the devs (custom kernels, great patches). I'm not feeling impatient yet for new hardware, but I can see why some are. Especially if their phones are falling apart.
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 09/29/2010 at 11:01 PM. Reason: quoted text edited
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by bonanzabucks View Post
    Well...I was breathing and thinking and decided to upgrade to the Epic when I was eligible. I have no regrets. I didn't dislike my pre and I really loved WebOS, but the phone was really lacking and after playing around, I don't find Android to be the awful experience that a lot on this forum are making it out to be. Besides, if it was so bad, why are Android phones selling like hotcakes? You can't even find Evos anywhere.
    Android is selling so well because there are so many handsets on the market and it's what the carriers are pushing. It wasn't too long ago that Windows Mobile was doing pretty well because it, too, was on every carrier and sold by numerous vendors. Pure market saturation.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by alan7467 View Post
    I think you're misunderstanding what the true issue of fragmentation is with the Android platform. It's not that older phones won't get official updates to new OS versions, it's that there are no standards enforced across the platform. The end result being new devices shipping with old versions of the OS with no guarantee that they will be properly brought up to date. I feel this is one of the primary reasons that while there are a ton of Android apps available in the Market now, the overall quality is terrible. Developers have to create their apps with low spec hardware running dated OS versions in mind.
    I think you misunderstand the relative unimportance of fragmentation. As I posted in this thread after my 'definition' post you responded to in knee-jerk fashion, Android's API level tagging system pretty well eliminates your 'old versions of the OS' concern. It's not Google's responsibility to prevent lazy manufacturers from releasing out-of-date hardware to unsuspecting consumers. It's not unlike Netbooks still being sold today with Windows XP - some consumers may not realize that they're getting an old OS (and it probably won't matter) and other consumers keep looking for a newer OS because it does matter and a small group of consumers will buy the old OS because it's cheaper and they're going to turn it into a Hackintosh anyway. When you hit the Android Market with your older OS phone, programs that exceed your phone's API Level simply aren't made available. With over 70% of Androids running API level 7 or higher (8 is the current top level), fragmentation is really much ado about nothing.

    And what do you base your "overall quality is terrible" comment on? Have you actually even used an Android app?
  20. mulcher's Avatar
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    #40  
    I guarantee you as we speak that market share is plunging. Between Pre users (like myself) switching to devices like the Epic 4g, and with the continued growth of Android, a flood of shiny new OS's like WM7 and BB OS6/QNX, There will be nearly no new adoption of webos and erosion as 1 & 2 year contracts expire.

    They have to get a 'miracle' device out fast as hell. Plus I read about the most successful Pre developers who look at the revenue as a 'hobby' if nothing more. Selling merely a few hundred to a few thousand copies at $1 to $3/each. You aren't putting a kid through collage on that...

    If HP doesn't go 'all in' and do so before Thanksgiving, I don't think there is any prayer of a recovery.
    Mark F Chinsky
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