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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by SFHandyman View Post
    Rahul said he has been running full webOS 2.0 for a while and we will be pleasantly surprised (it was on facebook tonight). I expect he is twittering from his iPad because his Palm Pad and new phone are on webOS 2.0 and can't be used for public contact yet. Just speculation.
    That makes much sense.
  2. #82  
    Not really. I see very recent Tweets from Bad Kitty in his timeline.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    HP/Palm is behind Motorola, Samsung, and Apple in the Cortex ARM chip pecking order. Screens are in tight supply no matter which technology you go with (Super TFT, IPS, whatever). Even if they've assembled lots of pieces in place and kept them close to the vest, so to speak, I don't see HP moving but so fast when rivals with more advantages took months to bring their product to market after announcement. And there are only three months left in 2010. Whether Palm announces or not, new Windows Phone 7 and Android handsets and lots of Android tablets ARE launching with product that people are already planning to buy now.
    If HP/Palm made an order with TI, it was a long long time ago. These companies know and understand the supply challenges better than we do. There might be a delay, but TI is'nt going to say 'No chip for you!'
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Hey, Sony is a giant that's been around forever, too. How are they doing in the phone market? Toshiba is a consumer electronics giant. How are they doing in the smartphone world? For that matter, how has HP done with the iPaq line?

    Surviving and even thriving doesn't mean that they are better positioned than someone else for success in the smartphone "doing things their way".

    How could them releasing a product soon after several months of Palm inactivity, and them having acquired Palm months ago be considered "rushing"? I, too, want them to put out a superior product, but I am merely observing that it has to be balanced with making it to market promptly as well. Their Sprint base is getting signed up to Evo and Epic two-year (one year with a Premier plan) contracts left and right. There is no real Verizon or ATT base, and the stock on those carriers continues to languish despite HP actually paying people with gift cards to take them.

    "Taking time" with a product doesn't really assure anything. They announced the Pre in January, and then said they'd release it sometime in the first half of the year, when it was more ready. Well, despite those six months, WebOS 1.0 was NOT ready, the hardware was not ready, and on top of that, they lost a lot of buzz which went to the iPhone 3GS. The Droid sucked up all of the Verizon oxygen similarly. Nobody here wants to see history repeat.

    I agree with this statement.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vociferous View Post
    If HP/Palm made an order with TI, it was a long long time ago. These companies know and understand the supply challenges better than we do. There might be a delay, but TI is'nt going to say 'No chip for you!'
    I'm sure Motorola placed their orders even earlier, as they have been moving a lot of volume and making new orders of a variety of OMAP 3 chips throughout the year, whereas Palm has not. Of course, TI wouldn't say "no" to any paying customer, but my original point is that Palm - even with HP's backing - lags in importance, and so I don't see them rushing product to shelves any quicker than companies using the same components, but doing way more consistent business.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm sure Motorola placed their orders even earlier, as they have been moving a lot of volume and making new orders of a variety of OMAP 3 chips throughout the year, whereas Palm has not. Of course, TI wouldn't say "no" to any paying customer, but my original point is that Palm - even with HP's backing - lags in importance, and so I don't see them rushing product to shelves any quicker than companies using the same components, but doing way more consistent business.
    TI will very graciously answer HP's request with "Why yes we can" whereupon they will check their production calendar and tell HP "we should have those to you by next summer."
  7. Cringer's Avatar
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    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Hey, Sony is a giant that's been around forever, too. How are they doing in the phone market? Toshiba is a consumer electronics giant. How are they doing in the smartphone world? For that matter, how has HP done with the iPaq line?

    Surviving and even thriving doesn't mean that they are better positioned than someone else for success in the smartphone "doing things their way".

    How could them releasing a product soon after several months of Palm inactivity, and them having acquired Palm months ago be considered "rushing"? I, too, want them to put out a superior product, but I am merely observing that it has to be balanced with making it to market promptly as well. Their Sprint base is getting signed up to Evo and Epic two-year (one year with a Premier plan) contracts left and right. There is no real Verizon or ATT base, and the stock on those carriers continues to languish despite HP actually paying people with gift cards to take them.

    "Taking time" with a product doesn't really assure anything. They announced the Pre in January, and then said they'd release it sometime in the first half of the year, when it was more ready. Well, despite those six months, WebOS 1.0 was NOT ready, the hardware was not ready, and on top of that, they lost a lot of buzz which went to the iPhone 3GS. The Droid sucked up all of the Verizon oxygen similarly. Nobody here wants to see history repeat.
    Sony and Toshiba did not just purchase a company with a history of success in the smart phone market. That is one of the differences here. And I am not saying HP/Palm is a sure success with what comes next, I am saying a couple months isn't going to make a big difference. Again, it is not a sprint. I am saying the success of today's products doesn't make much of a difference. The Nexus One was the next jesus-phone at one point, 10 other other phones have come out since that replaced it. 10 more will come out this Fall, half with a brand new OS. Speaking of that new OS, Microsoft took forever in the eyes of many to put something like WP7 out, they were dead, they had no chance, it was going to be too late. Look at the hype machine now though, no one cares how long they dragged their feet, they just care it finally coming out.

    And the reasons behind the failure of the Pre are pretty well documented, and it is a situation which is no longer the case.
  8. shotyme's Avatar
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm sure Motorola placed their orders even earlier, as they have been moving a lot of volume and making new orders of a variety of OMAP 3 chips throughout the year, whereas Palm has not. Of course, TI wouldn't say "no" to any paying customer, but my original point is that Palm - even with HP's backing - lags in importance, and so I don't see them rushing product to shelves any quicker than companies using the same components, but doing way more consistent business.
    True of the matter is, you don't know what TI will do. Palm was the first to release the OMAP 3430, and they were sampling way before we knew of its existence. Palm could have very well asked TI for the OMAP4 in 2009 to start their testing. Who wouldn't answer to HP, which plans to scale webOS to a lot of devices, including tablets, phones, toasters, printers, etc. I am sure OMAP will be found in all of those devices, meaning a lot of sales for TI.

    True is we don't know and we can't speculate. Palm hadn't a lot of volume before the Pre (unless you consider the Centro at a mere 3 million) so why obviously TI still gave them the chip first. Even Nokia used that same chip in the Pre and Nokia is the largest phone company in the world, but Palm got it first (or at least released it first).

    I am not saying you are wrong, just saying you can't use history to determine who TI will go to.
  9. #89  
    imo if HP/pam has a smartphone ready, complete and available this fall it would be not the greatest idea to wait another couple months to release it. We all know the mindshare of Webos is pretty much nonexistent, though around the net places like engaget, gizmodo, phonedog, etc have keep everyone else up to date with whats going with Webos. They, like us are eager to wait and see what Hp has in store this holiday season, and are building what ever hype there is to build surrounding that. Hopefully this mystery product that is causing all this buzz does come sooner then later.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    Sony and Toshiba did not just purchase a company with a history of success in the smart phone market.
    And they also have a recent history of failure, and are following the hardware roadmap from that period.

    And I am not saying HP/Palm is a sure success with what comes next, I am saying a couple months isn't going to make a big difference. Again, it is not a sprint. I am saying the success of today's products doesn't make much of a difference.
    Uh, they do for a nascent platform with no comparative successes thus far, don't you think?

    The Nexus One was the next jesus-phone at one point, 10 other other phones have come out since that replaced it. 10 more will come out this Fall, half with a brand new OS. Speaking of that new OS, Microsoft took forever in the eyes of many to put something like WP7 out, they were dead, they had no chance, it was going to be too late. Look at the hype machine now though, no one cares how long they dragged their feet, they just care it finally coming out.
    Android as a platform has been gaining steam and building momentum and sales since 2008. It was objectively a success with tens of thousands of apps and prominent placement and sales on three carriers before the Nexus One came out. The fact that so many devices come out are part of its business model and part of its success.

    Palm has released far fewer models and lost momentum and sales since launch. It was objectively not a success with only a few thousand apps and very modest placement on three carriers thus far. The only comparison is how differently things went for each platform.

    As for WP7, part of the reason why people still care is because Microsoft is building an ecosystem (e.g. Zune, Xbox Live) around their platform before launch as well as buying development progress and putting out a complete SDK before launch. Neither Palm nor HP has done any of this yet 15 months after WebOS hit the market.

    And the reasons behind the failure of the Pre are pretty well documented, and it is a situation which is no longer the case.
    How so?
  11. #91  
    I think the problem here is that people expect webOS, or any OS that is used, to be number 1, and if they're not, then it's doomsday.

    Keep in mind, this industry is only starting. The amount of people who actually don't have smartphones is pretty high still, and that means there's HUGE amounts of growth to see.

    Also keep in mind that 95% of the population are "sheep" and they just follow the trends, thus that's why Apple has been so successful, because they have that strategy down pat and market it extremely well.

    All it takes is a solid platform, which webOS is, some very very thought out and well put together marketing, and you have yourself some great marketshare.

    HP obviously has the brains, the power, to market very well to a wide variety of consumers across the globe.

    webOS doesn't have to be number 1, and quite frankly, I don't want it. I like having a device that my neighbour, and my neighbours neighbour doesn't have. All webOS needs is some stability, and with some good hardware and some good marketing we will see that.

    You don't need the absolute best, out of this world internals on the phone - the average consumer doesn't even understand what anything means.. they just need a device that is stable, works well, does what they need it to do.. and at the end of the day it just is maturity of the software which takes time anyways.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    As for WP7, part of the reason why people still care is because Microsoft is building an ecosystem (e.g. Zune, Xbox Live) around their platform before launch as well as buying development progress and putting out a complete SDK before launch. Neither Palm nor HP has done any of this yet 15 months after WebOS hit the market.
    lol they already have a complete SDK! haven't you heard of the PDK? Before that they had the normal SDK as well for quite a long time. You obviously don't know what your talking about.

    -Toaster
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by shotyme View Post
    True of the matter is, you don't know what TI will do. Palm was the first to release the OMAP 3430, and they were sampling way before we knew of its existence. Palm could have very well asked TI for the OMAP4 in 2009 to start their testing. Who wouldn't answer to HP, which plans to scale webOS to a lot of devices, including tablets, phones, toasters, printers, etc. I am sure OMAP will be found in all of those devices, meaning a lot of sales for TI.
    Sigh. Of course, they would try to fulfill HP orders for any product. A sale is a sale. My point is that they have a certain production capacity that they have to carefully budget for. It costs them money to be up and running, so they tailor uptime to orders. No, I do not know what orders Palm and/or HP may or may not have made of TI recently. I only know that Palm did very little manufacturing for the majority of the year based on their dismal sellthrough and attempts to clear stock that was made at the end of last year. I also know that Motorola has been ordering and re-ordering several OMAP 3 chips throughout the year with rumored plans to use OMAP 4 in their Verizon tablet. They have been consistently ordering the fastest (and priciest) OMAP chips available, whereas Palm has not.

    True is we don't know and we can't speculate. Palm hadn't a lot of volume before the Pre (unless you consider the Centro at a mere 3 million) so why obviously TI still gave them the chip first. Even Nokia used that same chip in the Pre and Nokia is the largest phone company in the world, but Palm got it first (or at least released it first).
    The only other devices I know with that chip made it to market 5 months after the Pre did (Droid, N900). Why would TI hold back the chip from Palm when they were ready to go and their larger competitors were not?
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by toasterthegamer View Post
    lol they already have a complete SDK! haven't you heard of the PDK? Before that they had the normal SDK as well for quite a long time. You obviously don't know what your talking about.

    -Toaster
    Oh, one with full API access to all parts of the device? That kind of complete SDK? Wonder where all of the voice apps and camera apps are....
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by kjb86 View Post
    I think the problem here is that people expect webOS, or any OS that is used, to be number 1, and if they're not, then it's doomsday.

    Keep in mind, this industry is only starting. The amount of people who actually don't have smartphones is pretty high still, and that means there's HUGE amounts of growth to see.

    Also keep in mind that 95% of the population are "sheep" and they just follow the trends, thus that's why Apple has been so successful, because they have that strategy down pat and market it extremely well.

    All it takes is a solid platform, which webOS is, some very very thought out and well put together marketing, and you have yourself some great marketshare.
    With all due respect, I disagree. WebOS is and has been a solid OS from day one, but it was never enough by itself to make a successful platform. Better marketing would have helped, for sure, but that too isn't enough these days.

    The picture of smartphone success these days, in my opinion, is one of a complete and fleshed out ecosystem. With that, you can make up for deficiencies in the core OS (e.g. Android's drabness, iPhone's lack of multitasking and unobtrusive notifications). Without that, the strengths of the core product are wiped away almost immediately.

    By the time Android got around to "the Droid" device, they had a pretty robust app catalog, deep Google service integration, and exclusive apps like Google Nav that really extended the usefulness and life of the device (along with accessories like the desk and car dock).

    iPhone exploded with iTunes integration, the iTunes Store for audio and video content, and their industry-leading app catalog. Consequently, the two OSes with the most complete ecosystem and deepest integration are the ones that are leading sales and sucking up all of the mindshare.

    HP and Palm are going to have to create the same for WebOS, or all of the stacks and "Just Type" and ports of iPhone games will not matter. People aren't just buying devices these days...they are buying into platforms and ecosystems, and that's why you see upwards of 70-80% of iPhone and Android users planning to stay put with their devices in surveys, with way lower retention numbers for the competition.

    webOS doesn't have to be number 1, and quite frankly, I don't want it. I like having a device that my neighbour, and my neighbours neighbour doesn't have. All webOS needs is some stability, and with some good hardware and some good marketing we will see that.
    It's never been unstable. Merely stagnant. You don't have to be number one, but you must certainly have healthy growth to keep up with the expanding market you refer to. And that's just to tread water.
  16. #96  
    webos has been stated as the best overall OS on the market from many reviewers and developers, and IMO I too think HP needs to focus on bringing things like developers to develop for Webos. To make thousands of applications for the OS, while they continue to improve Webos as operating system. HP needs to continue to improve on implementing things like talk to text, basic things that are on all the Android and Iphone devices, so that when people look at the next device their choice of choosing a different device this time wont be because the device lacks in amount of applications, hardware, and basic functions. Then to me the OS will shine when combined with the right hardware, specs and marketing.
  17. shotyme's Avatar
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    #97  
    WebOS had the same issue that Microsoft had when they released the Xbox 360. The only difference, Microsoft had money to keep pushing the Xbox and extended the warranty for all users for 3 years. They merely wrote off $2 billion. Their chips were great, but the design of the rest of the hardware was not.

    Palm had great software and it's processor from TI is great, but faulty design of their hardware (i.e. slider, cracked screen, etc).

    In regards to TI releasing chips for Palm vs. Motorola and anybody else, Palm has a device ready to release, more or less. Just like Mikah912 said, they have their device ready before others. This will only help Palm/HP case. Also, with the backing of HP, why wouldn't TI be willing to give them priority? HP has publicly stated that they plan on "doubling down" on webOS. This is just more business for TI.

    I guess we will just have to way for an official announcement. I am pretty sure HP will use a similar chip in their tablet and unannounced printer, lol
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Oh, one with full API access to all parts of the device? That kind of complete SDK? Wonder where all of the voice apps and camera apps are....
    Again I look at your post and you say this:
    Neither Palm nor HP has done any of this yet 15 months after WebOS hit the market.
    So again I argue that they have. They may not have mic and camera API's yet but they will with webOS 2.0, and your claim that they haven't done any of that is not valid in my opinion.

    -Toaster
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by toasterthegamer View Post
    Again I look at your post and you say this:


    So again I argue that they have. They may not have mic and camera API's yet but they will with webOS 2.0, and your claim that they haven't done any of that is not valid in my opinion.
    Dude, what part of "yet" do you not understand? I'm sure they will at some point. It's irrelevant to both my sentence and the larger discussion at hand.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    And they also have a recent history of failure, and are following the hardware roadmap from that period.
    Except that "history of failure" is not because of the roadmap. Other factors, most of which have now been virtually eliminated, fell into the equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    and very modest placement on three carriers thus far. The only comparison is how differently things went for each platform.
    Uh, three carriers? Are you sure? Being just a tad provential there, wouldn't you say...

    Frankly, I think this is just so much more of "looking for reasons that Palm will fail".
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