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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by djmcgee View Post
    True about pixel density and size, but the American way is that bigger is better and we're not going to get away from that anytime soon.

    Phones, cars (trucks/suvs), (insert phallic comment), etc. are all an example of American fatness that doesn't just include their bodies.
    As much as I understand your point, I must "counter-point" that Apple's iPhone 4 success suggests that, in many, many Americans' case, they actually have chosen against the bigger-is-better ethos:
    1. Apple chose not to go bigger, staying at the same screen size and "densing up".
    2. Lots and lots of people have chosen to purchase iPhone 4's, despite the screen not having increased in size, so not getting closer to some of the other screens, matching them, or going bigger than them.

    I take the iPhone 4's success as an example not that you (and I, as I generally agree with the point you're making there) are wrong, but that despite the general push towards bigger, "same size" can still do well.
  2. #142  
    "Size Queens"...OMG I just died laughing.

    You're right tho'.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    ...I must "counter-point" that Apple's iPhone 4 success suggests that, in many, many Americans' case, they actually have chosen against the bigger-is-better ethos...
    Or they made a choice based simply on looks and effective marketing....
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Or they made a choice based simply on looks and effective marketing....
    ...which *still* suggests that succumbing to the "bigger is better" ethos isn't the only way to win.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    ...which *still* suggests that succumbing to the "bigger is better" ethos isn't the only way to win.

    Well, perhaps its a mixture of both, then, or some sort of combination of the two.

    If I had to make a prediction, Id say that the largest screen size for a physical keyboard smartphone should be 3.8", and for one with a virtual keyboard would be 4 - 4.5".

    The larger screen for the virutal keyboard makes a truly better usable keyboard for a larger market - while some people with small hands/fingers can use the smaller screens, there are many more that can't, and its the portrait mode that people default to most, and thats where the viriual keyboards really lose thier efficiency for more people, partiularly at the smaller screen sizes.

    I have played with the HD2 - my daugter has had it since March - and, let me tell you, that is one slick phone! The keyboard in portrait mode is totally usable, with haptic feedback on. I have medium - large size hands - can palm a basketball, so you can judge from that.

    From the specs that Jackson has provided on the site, 3.8 - 4" screens would be a great phone, with or without a physical keyboard. The processing power of the OMAP4 dual core would be unprecendented, and, the screen density would WOW anyone.

    DLNA compliant is a great thing going forward, s connectivity to other DLNA devices such as printers, etc, will just add built in functionality that other smartphones will have to manually add on to have.

    Should be an exciting few months coming up!
    Last edited by LCGuy; 08/25/2010 at 05:22 PM.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  6. kbw
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    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    [*]Apple chose not to go bigger, staying at the same screen size and "densing up".[*]Lots and lots of people have chosen to purchase iPhone 4's, despite the screen not having increased in size, so not getting closer to some of the other screens, matching them, or going bigger than them.
    the ppl who purchased the new iphone would have done so regardless of what they did to the screen size.
    Apple is on a big roll and I think that even without the whole "retina display" they would have sold just as many
  7. #147  
    I've never heard of my casual friends (who just buy an iphone cause its an iphone) ever talk about the new screen. In fact, they haven't really talked about any of the new features. Its more "this phone is awesome!"


    sigh. I guess if their happy.
  8. #148  
    I think it is telling that Apple commands such control of the market with one phone, whereas no other phone manufacturer has done so (despite repeated rumors of the next reincarnation of the "iPhone killer" who, despite the hype, doesn't seem to be saving the world from the apocalypse any time soon)...and in fact, the only way Android seems to be winning any numbers game (and the numbers games it appears to win are always based on selective market statistics...) is basically because of multi-phone, multi-carrier channel stuffing.

    People chide Apple for pulling a fast one on consumers...on how they rely on "slick marketing" over actual "features"...but instead of chiding, maybe people should get the point? Consumers clearly don't care about the number-of-features explosion that everyone else is throwing at them, so why would HP/Palm want to play to a losing game like that?

    Clearly, what is more effective is a standard level of hardware sophistication (remember: it's not like the iPhone 4 is an absolute slouch hardware-wise) with a solid, streamlined "Gestalt quality" user experience that makes people say "this phone is awesome" rather than being forced to quibble about red herrings like gigahertz and megapixels and better marketing that doesn't make people feel like their soul has been threatened by a phantom.

    I think that webOS, for the most part, is capable of these things. It's not like Android, which desperately needs a facelift (and with their recent hire [of the webOS interface genius, I might add] they might actually get). Rather, what webOS needs are a few APIs to be added to the core (which Palm has said will be coming). As for hardware, we keep talking about gigahertz, but what webOS really needs is consistent quality and silky smoothness, not the gigahertz. Without silky smoothness, the gigahertz are just the scapegoat. With silky smoothness, no one will even mention gigahertz, as is the case with the iPhone.
  9. #149  
    subversiveassset;

    Well said, however, I think you might be missing the point that many posters are trying to make here on PC, which is that because WebOS is such a multitasking marvel, it is NOT as smooth as the iPhone on similar hardware - the Pre versus the iPhone 3Gs had the same processor, the Pre had a HIGHER screen density and a finer display (same screen resoltion - 480 x 320, but a 3.1" diagnal versus the iPhone's 3.5" diagnal), and still, it was slower and less smooth. The Pre+ is better as it has more RAM, but, it really doesnt shine until you put Govna and Uberkernal on it at 800mhz, which is kind of cheating, to compare against a Stock iPhone.

    The concentration here on CPU power isnt just for statistics - its necessary to be able to truly run many apps at once, or one with many running in the background, and still have the UI run just as fast/smooth as if it had none open. THAT is the ultimate goal, I believe, and hardware is thought to be the single source for that performance increase.

    If you notice, the OMAP4 processors that will likely make it into the first WebOS smartphone will likely only be clocked at 1 ghz or less.. BUT, they will be dual core, and extremely energy efficient, which will provide the WebOS OS will lots of prcessing power and speed to work with, and still have lots to spare, not to mention the GPU.

    So, I do understand your point, but, I guess Im saying that the posts here are looking at the technical solution required for that "consistant smoothness" your refer to, given the addtional overhead of how WebOS handles multitasking.. which is, obviously, one pf the very big and unique assets it brings to the table for any smarphone user.

    Last edited by LCGuy; 08/25/2010 at 07:27 PM.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  10. #150  
    I can see what you mean, and I may be mistaken on this part, but I have always been led to believe that the coding behind webOS (vs. the coding behind iOS) are a major difference in the smoothness...and that webOS 2.0 will also bring substantial improvements in code efficiency.

    I guess I've just seen how in other instances (cough classic windows mobile) how throwing hardware is not the ideal solution for inefficient or incapable software.
  11. #151  
    subveriveasset-

    Not to nerd you out but, you are partly right, there, as well.

    The iPhone OS and its applications are compiled - that means, after it is written, it is translated into "machine language" that requires no interpretter - the instructions are there, directly talking to the hardware.

    WebOS's applciations are written in a language that is more friendly to developers, but require an "intepreter" to interface with the OS, which, of course, adds overhead to the whole process, and, therefore, given the same hardware, will be slower, however, this is yet another area where more powerful and faster hardware can not only make up the difference, but actually put WebOS and its advanced mulititasking features ahead of the iOS.

    This sitation is VERY relevant at the lower CPU power and speeds that both devices were shipped with in thier premier versions, but will be less relevant with much better and more powerful hardware.

    Potentially.

    Both OS's can be further optimized, but, that does require a maturing of the OS, to see how it performs in the market, given the hardware and the user experiences.. iOS is ahead there, now in thier 4th version, while WebOS is only still in its infancy.

    Last edited by LCGuy; 08/25/2010 at 09:10 PM.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  12. #152  
    Another potentially big gain in the user experience would be somehow to be able to prioritize UI threads in the processing the hardware is doing such that nothing is allowed to pre-empt them...that is, even if some really intensive process is going on, that should be subordinated to the user action of scrolling a list, for example--that list should never be allowed to stutter.

    Even with dual-core, out-of-order-executing, higher-speed OMAP4 chips, you know there are going to be apps or enough simulatneous apps or whatever that will tax them; and then, unless UI-processes are protected and prioritized, you'll still be vulnerable to stutter, slow-downs, lags, etc.

    I don't know enough how threads/processes are managed, but it seems to me that yes, hardware can definitely help, but some architectural changes on the software side might also be critical in the search for silky-smooth, uninterrupted responsiveness.
  13. #153  
    ah, I think Android is the "iPhone killer"... WebOS just needs to be the next big thing.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by kbw View Post
    the ppl who purchased the new iphone would have done so regardless of what they did to the screen size.
    Apple is on a big roll and I think that even without the whole "retina display" they would have sold just as many
    The iPhone 4 could have been the iTwinkie and they would have sold just as many. Everyone else has one and you need one.

    For the BlackBerry Torch, every old guy will have to have one. It's not their money. They just need to look cool around the other old guys.

    For the rest of the world, specs matter.

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 08/25/2010 at 09:09 PM.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by LCGuy View Post
    The iPhone OS is compiled - that means, after it is written, it is translated into "machine language" that requires no interpretter - the instructions are there, directly talking to the hardware.

    WebOS is written in a language that is more friendly to developers, but requires an "intepreter" to be able to talk to the hardware, which, of course, adds overhead to the whole process
    No, WebOS is compiled. It's a variant of Linux, for crying out loud. Certain classes of WebOS applications are not compiled but are interpreted by what is essentially a very advanced browser engine. Others are JIT (just-in-time) compiled into bytecode for the Java handler, and still others are fully compiled to use the PDK. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if the HTML/JavaScript apps are JIT-compiled into bytecode, since that's the direction browsers are going now.

    The amount of bad information being posted just in the Future Palm Devices forum today is astounding.
  16. #156  
    Now the rumors say October or November. September just seems too soon to me...
  17. #157  
    Martin;

    Thanks for the clarification - I did mean tha tmost of the applications were not compiled, and how they interface with the OS would require an interpretter, and I was going to mention the JIT compilers, but, while even that adds time and overhead to the OS (anyone who has a slow PC running Java applications will agree), that was beyond the level of "simplicty" I was trying for...so, ...

    Its not really "bad" information, its just a "dumbing down" mistake I made, and I apologize for that, as I was trying to make it as "user friendly" and less "geeky".. however, seriously, the point is the same, though, dont you think:

    More powerful hardware is the obvious solution.. and that is the idea carrying forth in the previius posts.

    Sheesh.!

    Last edited by LCGuy; 08/25/2010 at 09:28 PM.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  18. #158  
    So, I was of the impression that the iPhone uses its GPU for all the cool smooth transitions etc... I'm also confident that if webOS offloaded all the GUI animations (card animations, etc) to the GPU it will also become smooth. Even on the same hardware we have now.

    Of course a higher powered processor will help too.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    Another potentially big gain in the user experience would be somehow to be able to prioritize UI threads in the processing the hardware is doing such that nothing is allowed to pre-empt them...that is, even if some really intensive process is going on, that should be subordinated to the user action of scrolling a list, for example--that list should never be allowed to stutter.

    Even with dual-core, out-of-order-executing, higher-speed OMAP4 chips, you know there are going to be apps or enough simulatneous apps or whatever that will tax them; and then, unless UI-processes are protected and prioritized, you'll still be vulnerable to stutter, slow-downs, lags, etc.

    I don't know enough how threads/processes are managed, but it seems to me that yes, hardware can definitely help, but some architectural changes on the software side might also be critical in the search for silky-smooth, uninterrupted responsiveness.
    Shadowhawk;

    I totally agree - as the mobile applications increase in size and complexity/functionality, the device hardware requirements will increase. That's how the PC developed, as well... a 486 sx from the early 90's was nothing compared to the Pentium2, which pales in comparison to the furst dual core processors that appeared in the early 2000's and now, we have quad, and six core chips, with 6mb of level 2 cache, motherboards with bus speeds that are literally 5 x as fast as they were 10 years ago, and hard drives that have hit the terabyte quantities, when as little as 10 years ago, a 100 megabyte hard drive was considered "state o fthe art". as applications were not gigabytes in size, but, rather 10's of megabytes, at most.

    Smartphone software will follow the same pattern, I believe, and the hardware will increase in power, efficiency and speed, accordingly.

    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by LCGuy View Post
    More powerful hardware is the obvious solution.. and that is the idea carrying forth in the previius posts.
    More powerful hardware with the same or better battery life is always good. But getting a solid component with a reasonably long life like the OMAP4 in place is also good. For example, I have a Core i7 920 with 12GB of RAM for my main system at home and the same for my ESXi server sitting next to it. I do not foresee the need to upgrade anything other than the main system's video card over the next couple of years, maybe longer. I *might* upgrade the memory to 24GB on the ESXi box, but even that is a question mark.
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