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  1.    #1  
    I was reading through the comments on the PreCentral article about Phil McKinney's MobileBeat2010 speech, and it really got me thinking aoit Palm's future and the current state of the WebOS. In particular, I noticed that a lot of people were discussing how Phil's lack of announcement of a new Palm device or WebOS upgrade was them flirting with disaster, and that if HP/Palm doesn't reveal SOMETHING soon enough, people will start jumping ship--moreso than they are now.

    I, on the other hand, have nothing to worry about, concerning Palm's future. In fact, Apple's success is proof enough for me that Palm CAN (and hopefully WILL) be the number one mobile system on the market within, say, five years time.

    Thing is, I'm a major Apple addict. I've been on their side ever since I knew what a computer was. Even during their "dark ages" during the mid-to-late 90's, I was still a diehard, steadfast, deeply-rooted Apple supporter. Eventually my faith in and support of Apple paid off with the release of the iMac, iPod and eventuall the iPhone (which, ironically, I don't own).

    All this talk about Palm's situation, their failure to inspire consumers and--in this recent case with Phil's speech--lack of action that'll only encourage users to jump ship is almost carbon copy of the mindset my fellow Apple supporters and other critics had back during Apple's dark age. But, over time, Apple continued to trudge forward, make drool-worthy products, create markets that didn't exist and fill them with their products... and now Apple is who they are now. I mean, there was a time when people counted Apple as a lost cause and it was "crazy" to believe that Apple was "alive". Now it's "crazy" to believe that Apple is "dead" (as evidenced by the criticism some Microsoft VP got by calling the iPhone "Apple's Vista").

    Palm is in almost the exact same situation that Apple was in during their Dark Ages it's almost mindboggling.
    * At one time they were the number one company in their market, the golden standard to judge others by, only to have that position slip out of their fingers by poor decisions, terrible management, and a steady stream of lackluster products and upgrades.
    * Despite being the underdog, they both have awesome products but NO ONE knows about it.
    * They have a hardy group of supporters who'll never say die
    * The potential for the company is extremely obvious but frustrating to see them not live up to it.

    ... Apple was eventually able to pull themselves up from their own bootstraps and becomes who they are today. Those who jumped ship in '96, '97 and/or '98 eventually got back on board by the time the iPhone was released in 2007. In fact, I'd say Apple is in the best shape it's EVER been in in it's 40-someodd year history, doing far better than they did with the release of the Apple II in '78 and the original Macintosh in '84 (relatively speaking).

    And thus, the fact that Apple was able to go from zero to hero in about ten years time--and better yet, to finally be able to beat Microsoft in something, which is something Apple never could do since the release of Windows 95--is enough reason for me to believe that the future for Palm is very rosy indeed.HP and Palm would have to screw up ROYALLY--if not quit making products outright--for them to fail miserably.

    So, as long as HP/Palm remain extremely dedicated to the WebOS and use it to fill a niche that isn't filled yet--and there are a LOT of places left open for HP/Palm to nab--their future is secure.

    Whaddya guys think?
  2. #2  
    Not sure what you're talking about... Apple is losing marketshare, not gaining, Android is growing.
  3. bruba's Avatar
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    #3  
    Apple's Mac OS lost and never gained any substantial marketshare. Following your theory, Palm will create a new OS in 5-10 years (like iOS), that'll beat everyone else - for a while at least.

    Sorry, but I don't think you can compare Palm to Apple 5-10 years ago. And not only because they're now part of HP, the biggest PC manufacturer in the world (including fruit companies)..
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudementry View Post
    Not sure what you're talking about... Apple is losing marketshare, not gaining, Android is growing.
    I'm not talking about the short term, I'm talking long term. There was a time before the iPhone (and the iPod and the iMac) ever existed, and when Steve Jobs WASN'T working for Apple. This was when Apple was in their worst period in their entire history... where they were bleeding money left and right and could never turn a profit. Then, after Steve Jobs came on board, he started laying golden eggs and Apple went from almost dead to very VERY alive.

    The fact that this happened, period, gives me enough confidence in Palm's future. And I have even MORE confidence in Palm's future, considering that (in my humble opinion) Palm's current situation and position is almost exactly the same as the situation and position Apple was in when things started to turn around for them. Sure, things may not be going SUPER great for Palm RIGHT NOW, but there is more that what's going on RIGHT NOW in Palm's future. For every one Palm user jumping ship today, I'm positive that there will be three coming aboard in the fear future. Again I'm drawing parallels from Apple; even though they were losing money and users and support during the late 90's (and everyone was panicing and calling Apple dead because of it), Apple has GAINED ten times the amount of money and users since then.

    In short: there is nothing to fear... DON'T PANIC! This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon!
  5.    #5  
    Maybe I should rephrase the title of this thread to "Two Words As To Why I'm Not Worried About Palm's Future: 'Apple's Success'". As in, why I'm not worried about whether or not Palm will die... It is because of Apple's success that I'm convinced that Palm will succeed in their future as well.

    ------

    Quote Originally Posted by bruba View Post
    Apple's Mac OS lost and never gained any substantial marketshare. Following your theory, Palm will create a new OS in 5-10 years (like iOS), that'll beat everyone else - for a while at least.

    Sorry, but I don't think you can compare Palm to Apple 5-10 years ago. And not only because they're now part of HP, the biggest PC manufacturer in the world (including fruit companies)..
    I'm not comparing Palm to Apple five to ten years ago, I'm comparing Palm to Apple twelve to fifteen years ago. A lot has happened in that time, at least more than what has happened in only five to ten years.

    Since you brought it up, I'm actually comparing the WebOS to OSX and PalmOS to Classic MacOS. Apple has gained considerable market share since the release of OSX in March 2001--at least relative to Classic MacOS's market share in 1997--but they're also making barrels of money with their iPhone (which makes 40% of Apple's sales, or so I've been told), which is also based off of OSX.

    I think people are misinterpreting what I'm saying. This post is made in SUPPORT of Palm; I'm making the claim that Palm's future is set for MAJOR success, given that Apple has set an example of how a company can turn itself around. Again, it may be hard to fathom today, but there was a time when Apple was almost dead. DEAD. However, Steve Jobs came back on board (after Apple bought up Job's previous company, NeXT) and he managed to turn Apple around to who they are today... and not even the ardent anti-Apple-ite can't deny Apple's insanely great success. Sure it took 10 years, but Jobs is super right right now... do you think he cares that it took 10 years?

    The same can be said about Palm: they were (and still are) the mobile underdog. But because HP (the largest computer manufacturer, including fruit companies) bought them up, Palm will eventually get turned around into something akin to what Apple is today... if not replacing them outright.
    Last edited by nick15; 07/14/2010 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Not "threat" but "thread"! (@_@)
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by nick15 View Post
    ...
    Whaddya guys think?
    I think that was more than "two words"
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think that was more than "two words"
    "Apple's success" isn't two words?
  8. #8  
    lots of similarity, except the palm faithful aren't quite as blindly loyal and are a lot less patient. I hope palm becomes the next apple...
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    That's the same reasoning that I use to tell my nephew that dropping out of college during his first semester isn't really any big deal. He's in the exact same situation that Jobs was in 30 years ago. That's why I know he will probably be a huge success in life. For example, he usually wears jeans and tennis shoes, even at very important public events. There really are a lot of similarities.

    In 1972, Jobs graduated from high school and enrolled in Reed College in Portland, Oregon. Although he dropped out after only one semester...
    So long as your nephew also has a really awesome idea that'll make the same impact on the world today that the Apple I and Apple II had back in the '70s... then I'd say "Go for it, little one!" If, however, he's gonna drop out of college and sit on is *** (which I'm sure ISN'T what Steve Jobs did when he dropped out of college), then I don't think the two situations are the same...
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    lots of similarity, except the palm faithful aren't quite as blindly loyal and are a lot less patient. I hope palm becomes the next apple...
    Maybe in terms of success. I would gladly take webos as the underdog for the rest of its relevance as long as hp/palm doesn't adopt any of apples business policies.
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    lots of similarity, except the palm faithful aren't quite as blindly loyal and are a lot less patient. I hope palm becomes the next apple...
    I hope that I can at least make SOME of the Palm Faithful be a little more patient... I hope I can get people to see that Apple's success means Palm's success.

    I would love to see Palm be the next Apple as well... then BOTH of my favorite brands will be the top players!
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoochild View Post
    Maybe in terms of success. I would gladly take webos as the underdog for the rest of its relevance as long as hp/palm doesn't adopt any of apples business policies.
    I heartfully agree. As a lifelong Apple faithful, it pains me to see Apple act to closed--especially considering that, back in the day, Apple used to **** on Microsoft for acting the same way and advertise "hey, WE'RE not like them!". It also hurts to see the iPhone be so completely opposite of, say, the MacOS and the way Apple treats it. I mean, Apple doesn't lock out OSX and prevents us from installing programs on it that they won't allow (I don't know how many BitTorrent'd files I have on my Mac, and I didn't need to "jailbreak" OSX for it!)

    Concerning Palm, I agree that I'd rather see Palm remain number 2 if it means HP and Palm doesn't adopt Apple-esque behavior. Of course, if Palm and be number 1 AND keep their "you are so awesome!" stance concerning customers, then that's a double dose of win. Better yet is if Palm's success with openness "encourages" Apple to open up as well.

    ...I can dream, can't I??
  13. #13  
    I agree with your OP. Lots of similarities between Apple's climb and Palm's potential to achieve the same success. The one major difference.... is i think the reason for apples big success.. and also the reason for why many despise them... Steve Jobs.
    He is a genius and a cocky, pompous turd...
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    I agree with your OP. Lots of similarities between Apple's climb and Palm's potential to achieve the same success. The one major difference.... is i think the reason for apples big success.. and also the reason for why many despise them... Steve Jobs.
    He is a genius and a cocky, pompous turd...
    Yeah, but he still makes an amazing number of ideas. Or I should say, other people have the ideas, but he's the one with the knowhow to say "that one's crap" and "that one's awesome"... and have those decisions be spot-on to what consumers want.

    But what makes me not worry about HPalm's capabilities to produce top-of-the-line products that meets AND exceeds consumer expectations is that, well, ANY company can get the same kind of "skunkwerx" brainstorming as Apple has, nor is Apple the ONLY company who has someone who can think like Jobs can (even if that "someone" is actually two or three people). HPalm has a lot of money and people, and, most importantly, the will and desire to make Palm number one like Apple has. And unlike someone like LG and Samsung, HPalm actually has the history and the IP to make it WORK. Again, they may not have A Steve Jobs, but two or three people can think like him... nor is it like that NOT having a Steve Jobs means a company will fail, period.

    All HPalm needs is a little old-skool Apple-esque support from us Palm faithful to dig them out of the trenches! And at least someone to tell the panicing, impatient Palm faithful: "Calm down, there's nothing to worry about! Just you wait, Palm's return is due!"

    I mean, like, who cares if we need to wait 10 years like Apple did for HPalm to get as big as Apple is today? It's not like that, because Palm didn't get mad success in five years, they don't DESERVE to have their success, or that their success "doesn't count". When HPalm's success happens, we'll all BUT remember these dark ages... just like how many people have forgotten Apple's dark ages (It seems like the idea of Apple being almost dead at one point is a wild accusation for some people!)

    TL;dr: Don't panic, Palm Faithful!!
    Last edited by nick15; 07/15/2010 at 01:50 PM. Reason: other tweeks in my writing.
  15. #15  
    All we should really care about as consumers, if we like Palm products, is that they continue to be successful enough to keep producing good products. Apple proved they could be successful--not by beating Microsoft at their own game, but by playing their game and playing it extremely well. They didn't really beat Microsoft according to any kind of numbers. But they appealed to the segment of the populace that was interested in their products, and formed a brand identity out of it.

    I think Palm can do the same thing, but they have some work to do, as their identity crisis is still quite fresh. It will take time to settle into their niche. And nobody should ever expect them to move the numbers that Apple is moving with the iPhone or that Google is moving with Android. To be successful, Palm just has to find their own game and play it well.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  16. #16  
    Here, here! Well said.

    Your profile photo by the way... best photo Ive ever seen of the man hands down... such and interesting person.
  17. #17  
    Dr. Rubinstein, or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love HP
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    All we should really care about as consumers, if we like Palm products, is that they continue to be successful enough to keep producing good products. Apple proved they could be successful--not by beating Microsoft at their own game, but by playing their game and playing it extremely well. They didn't really beat Microsoft according to any kind of numbers. But they appealed to the segment of the populace that was interested in their products, and formed a brand identity out of it.

    I think Palm can do the same thing, but they have some work to do, as their identity crisis is still quite fresh. It will take time to settle into their niche. And nobody should ever expect them to move the numbers that Apple is moving with the iPhone or that Google is moving with Android. To be successful, Palm just has to find their own game and play it well.
    Absolutely. Well said; I couldn't have put it better myself.

    I remember in the early days of Apple's new revival (so, say, 1998) when Jobs basically made it clear that Apple was giving up on trying to "beat" Microsoft and to instead focus on ways Apple can be made "more awesome". At the time I thought it was such an insane idea... I mean, Apple WAS "supposed" to be the one to topple Microsoft! To end that fight was... well, it was very un-Apple-like.

    But later on I came to realize that it was a very smart move. I mean, we all hate seeing people acting like sheep; it basically means that someone is controlling someone else's actions. But for Apple to continue focusing their time and energy on "toppling" Microsoft, Apple was, in reality, letting Microsoft control all their actions. It wasn't until Apple distanced themselves from Microsoft and focused on making Apple awesome again that Apple was TRULY controlling themselves. And now, Apple is who they are today, and they didn't need to "topple" Microsoft to do it (Microsoft did it on their own, amirite?)

    Palm never had to worry about an "enemy", but I guess if there IS one we can think Palm should do battle against, it would be Apple. But the thing is, Palm doesn't have to "topple" Apple in order to succeed. The iPhone left open a wide market Palm can do business in: the business/corporate market. It's almost as if Apple intentionally did that for Palm; I mean, if we have MacBooks and MacBook Pros, and iMacs and Mac Pros... why not make an iPhone Pro in tandem with the "regular" iPhones?

    I'm sure that, in five years time, Apple and Palm will lead the mobile industry, and they won't need to compete in order to do it. Apple will be #1 in the consumer mobile market while Palm will be #1 in the business/corporate mobile market. In fact, I'd say the only REAL fear for HPalm isn't Apple, but Blackberry... maybe Android (but I don't see Androids being thought of as business phones, but I could be wrong).

    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    Dr. Rubinstein, or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love HP
    Mein fuhrer! I can copy and paste!

    ----

    Another thing I love about Apple in relation to Palm is that Apple seems to have a complete level of respect for Palm.

    For example, at today's iPhone 4 press conference, Palm was spared criticism of having a similar "death grip" (versus Blackberry, Samsung and HTC). Jobs also mentioned how Apple tries to stick with their own work as much as possible, and how they write really good software... like Palm:

    "And we're pretty good at making software, we showed that in the iPod... other people are good at it too, like Palm..."

    Apple has also tried to buy Palm twice... and even in this last-most attempt, Apple seemed very willing and open to let Palm survive as their own separate company. I'm still glad it was HP who ended up buying Palm (as HP has been my favorite PC- and printer-maker), but had Apple bought Palm it would have been an ecstatic venture for me.

    But still, I'm sure things between Aple and Palm will remain rosy for years, and will probably be a lot more visible in the years to come.
  19.    #19  
    Another reason why I'm not afraid for Palm's future? It's "Apple" once again.

    Or more specifically, Jon Rubenstein. He's the Steve Jobs without the Steve Jobs... Jon knows how Jobs thinks and acts, and has worked at Apple during their major come back between 1997 and 2006 and headed all of Apple's major comeback projects in that time. I mean, the iMac? The iPod? All Jon's brainchildren. I wouldn't be surprised that the iPhone had some ideas that Jon had before leaving Apple.

    With Jon onboard, Palm is the Apple that isn't Apple. Apple's comeback had a lot to do with the fact that it was Jon in the trenches, doing the actual work that Jobs pondered up. Jobs may have said "we need an entry-level Mac to capture the hearts and minds of new users", but Jon was the one who said said "iMac". Jobs may have said "we need an awesome portible digital music player to capture the hearts and minds of new users", but Jon was the one who said "iPod".

    Jon has some ten years of Apple experience under his belt (which is also why I think Jobs went easy on Palm yesterday at the Antennagate press conference), which should be more than enough for Jon to know what users want and what Palm needs to do to give it to them.

    Again: Palm's future success hinges on the fact that Palm is the Apple that isn't Apple. No other company has that sort of "built in" status, and if Palm really puts in the hard work to innovate anything close to what Apple can do, then Palm's future is secure.
  20. #20  
    But they HAVE to find a way to get products to market sooner. Even yearly refreshes may not be enough if they're to keep up--at least until they build up enough mindshare to get some momentum.
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