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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Is Palm Dead? - Kevin Rose -- a great take on the situation.
    Even setting aside my natural dislike for Kevin Rose, I don't agree with him that it's the hardware that caused the failure. The Pre does not feel cheap to me, and there are enough people who prefer a hardware keyboard that his own personal acceptance of the iPhone's on-screen keyboard is irrelevant to me. I do agree that apps are important, but I don't think they drove things here. And, I can't remember his other point.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesm View Post
    It's a big problem. Fundamentally the reason WebOS didn't take off was that it launched on Sprint. Sprint is the kiss of death. Every major phone success in a new handset came with a launch on AT&T or VZ. If VZ had launched it instead of Sprint, it would have been as successful as the Droid.

    Worse, Sprint had a 6 month exclusive that capped the ability for Palm to really capitalize on their headstart over Android. By the time they could launch on VZ, Moto and Android had already launched the Droid and the rest is history.

    NO major handset maker has ever had a major success launching on Sprint. You just can't fine one example.

    It's funny that everyone is puzzled why WebOS hasn't taken off, but the answer is pretty simple - it's not webos but Sprint that's the reason.
    As much has been vaunted about how sprint screws up. The Launch went off very well. Where things began to fall down was when they couldn't get product out fast enough. Who's to blame for that Sprint or Palm?

    Palm for all it's innovations has shot it self in the foot more times then Yosemite Sam. First They are desperate and announce the PRE well before it's ready. Nearly six months later the phone comes out. OOOPPPS, Iphone now has double the base memory the the PRE. No proper SDK for months. Lets not forget the slip shot construction of the Pre (Oreo anyone?). To the benefit of Palm Webos has been fairly regularly updated. That being said they did not go after or bring in some of the major developers that are popular with the Iphone (can't find Shazzam for the life of me in the app cat). That and out and out greed with them. They announce that you can charge with out wires. Great Idea, then you find out not only do you not have the back cover for it. You have to shell out another 70+ tax for the Touchstone and back cover. And it still doesn't even have an extra charger plug for it in the box. This was a particular irritating problem for many (usb cover fell out got lost now have crack running from opening to the digitizer).

    It's easy to take pot shots at Sprint. At least they had way better ads showing off the Pre then Palm did, still get nightmares thinking of those creepy lady Palm ads.

    ATT or VZW would have had the same lackluster results to.
  3. slinky's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by mech1164 View Post
    ... That and out and out greed with them.....It's easy to take pot shots at Sprint. At least they had way better ads showing off the Pre then Palm did, still get nightmares thinking of those creepy lady Palm ads. ATT or VZW would have had the same lackluster results to.
    A well thought out response and completely dead on accurate. For years Palm was milking its own customers, releasing marginal upgrades and doing diddly while Colligan was collecting his huge bonuses. Sitting on their butts caught up with them. All this talk about the new OS took them as long as it took Ford to build the Saturn. When he left it was clear the company was in a downward spiral. You can't release hardware without a development toolkit. There should have been a reasonable number of apps in the catalog on launch day to whet the appetites of potential customers. They should have released hardware that wasn't pathetic and plasticky. As mech put it, they got greedy and thought they could put out a semi-sleek looking design and, once again, milk the customers with better hardware and incremental upgrades. Sorry guys... everyone caught up and exceeded you. The market won't stand for your lackluster efforts. I don't know what will change this.

    Don't hate Gizmodo. The writer is just saying how he feels. None of us want to see something as potentially great as Web OS die out. But leave it to greedy people to kill something great. Look at the USA and what our government and wall street executives did to us. Many of the capitalists kill the great things the scientists build in the desire to exploit to the max...
  4. #44  
    i like the palm pre plus, but the company is pretty much dead. i have another upgrade in a year, and will be moving to android or iphone if it comes to verizon.
  5. #45  
    I disagree on the cheap feel. I think the pre does feel cheap and 'plasticky.' And IMO, this trait has hurt sales. The sad thing is my launch day pre has proved to actually be sturdy, and the plastic has endured more than one drop. But alas, I fear that the feel factor has hurt sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    The Pre does not feel cheap to me, and there are enough people who prefer a hardware keyboard that his own personal acceptance of the iPhone's on-screen keyboard is irrelevant to me. I do agree that apps are important, but I don't think they drove things here. And, I can't remember his other point.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    I was thinking about it and I wanted to clarify something about my remarks. I have no problem with a person stating that app releases are slowing down and developers aren't working on it any more. If you believe that, you're entitled to that opinion (not that you need my permission to). I personally disagree, and feel that the flow of apps has been at the same rate.

    Regardless, I have absolutely no issue with any of that. My issue with the Gizmodo article is that he uses the wrong data to make that argument, or makes the wrong conclusion from the data he's giving. You simply can't say "webOS only has 2000 apps" and use that to support the statement that developers are leaving the platform. It's just a complete logical fallacy. If you want to state that, then you have to look at the rate of applications being released, not the total number of apps.
    Honestly, you should see that apps have been slowed. And it also seems that as easy as palm has made cross platforms apps to be ported, that alot of them should be being ported over at a pretty speedy pace. And we just arent seeing it. And I still feel like the os is almost barebones with a few perks, and its almost a year later, thats terrible.

    BTW, I'm not on the palm is going under bandwagon. I doubt they are fixing to close the doors anytime soon. But if android implements true multitasking, I'm gone. Palm reminds me of sega, groundbreaking stuff they did, of course it was never enough and eventually they went under. It's funny that something as simple as a snazzier name (instead of pre) might of saved them, IMO.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Honestly, you should see that apps have been slowed.
    I don't think it has slowed, no. I've seen just as much interesting stuff in the past weeks as I did 3 or 4 months ago.

    In the last month, we got Grooveshark, YouView, drPodder in the official Catalog, a ton of good games, Zagat, Gowalla, the new Facebook app, an eBay app, to name a few.

    I don't know what people who criticize the apps we have expect, but I'm seeing a ton of good apps, both for productivity and for pleasure.

    Sure, I want to see Docs to Go, and I want microphone access, and I want to see what comes out of the PDK public beta, but we're still getting a steady stream of quality apps in between all the crap.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    I'm a developer and I gave up on Palm. There's no money to be made; or money that's worth the time and effort. My other friends that are developers have pretty much given up as well.

    A couple of weeks back I almost landed a big contract developing a WebOS app for a large company, but as of last week they pulled out and now have no interest in WebOS.
    Well then, that says it all. Since you failed to make money, obviously no one else can.

    Except of course, those that are. I'l pose the same question to you as I have some others, when is this demise going to happen? 2 months from now, 4, 12, 24? No need for an exact date, just an approximate one will suffice.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by hockey4life0099 View Post
    so if palm dies do you think webos could still live on? i would actually love to see a webos phone by htc
    It's unlikely Palm will "die." Their patent portffolio alone would make them woth having. They've been sold and bought before, and that's likely the worst case scenario, and even that is way too early to call.
  10. philbw's Avatar
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    #50  
    Alright, I want to chime in as a consumer and a developer. First, although Palm is obviously not doing so well. All of these death articles really aren't helping *anything*. It's like the news saying "there's a huge problem with kids shooting each other, here's how they're getting the guns!" so some kid hears that, follows the directions, and makes the problem worse. Post their financial results and move on.

    Now as a developer I am very excited to be developing for WebOS. I developed for PalmOS for years and as someone else said it's still kicking. I still have a contract writing software for lawyers that still use Treos. Even if WebOS "dies off" there will still be demand for a long time to come. Also when the PDK is official developers will be able to really merge the power of linux with the ease of WebOS. If DataVis doesn't build an office suite I *assure* you someone else will. The fact that I've already run the full versions of X-Chat, Pidgin, and Firefox (all native linux versions) on my Pre gives me hope that much much more is yet to come.

    Finally, I want to thank jhoff80 for giving his insight time after time in these forums. He did a lot of beta testing for me for some of my PalmOS apps and I will tell you the guy was one of my best resources. If there's one person that truly knows the heartbeat of Palm from a users perspective it'd be him.

    - Phil -
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    When you have a handful of developers in a market that's not saturated pulling out, the effect is much more evident versus a market that's overly-saturated. For every developer that's left or considered leaving on the iPhone 10 more have hopped on board.

    Do you think the same can be said about Palm? <- That's an honest question.
    What "handful" are you speaking of? A company that two weeks ago was rady to hire you and now has no interest in WebOS at all doesn't sound like they were very committed to begin with.

    Actually, a company that was going to develop then decided not to will hav no affect on the catelog, unless they were already producing apps for WebOS.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    You know, I wrote this before, but then decided against it and edited it out, because it thought it might sound insulting and it's not intended to... What exactly have you written for the Pre to say you're "pulling out"? That's just never starting.

    From what's visible in the App Catalog, the main contributors to webOS apps are still working on it just as much now as they were before, and still producing a steady amount of apps.

    That's even more the case when you look at the homebrew stuff that's not in the catalog.
    Thank you, my point exactly (though said much more direct and to the point).
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Honestly, you should see that apps have been slowed.
    Sorry, that statement is simply incorrect, no matter how many times you repeat it.

    The catalog hit 1000 apps late December or early January. I enthusiastically Predicted 2000 Febraury. I missed. By a lot. They were at about 1300. At the end of February, they were at about 1600, and now, mid-March, at about 1750.

    Looks pretty steady to me.
  14. urkel's Avatar
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    #54  
    It seems like all this frustration is all about the amount of sugarcoating people want on their bad news.

    This isn't a case where Palm didn't get a fair shot. They had media attention, hype, a good OS and everything necessary to have a competitive 1st year but in the end all their failures are their own fault. So if Gizmodo, Engadget, WSJ or anyone takes a negative stance then I don't blame them. The media outlets can never do more harm than Palm already did to themselves.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    It seems like all this frustration is all about the amount of sugarcoating people want on their bad news.

    This isn't a case where Palm didn't get a fair shot. They had media attention, hype, a good OS and everything necessary to have a competitive 1st year but in the end all their failures are their own fault. So if Gizmodo, Engadget, WSJ or anyone takes a negative stance then I don't blame them. The media outlets can never do more harm than Palm already did to themselves.
    Again, it's not the "negative stance", it's the obvious bias, and the incorrect use of numbers. It's one thing to say that company isn't doing well, or to even say it's doing poorly. It's another entirely to say that the app count (which is increasing) indicates developers are abandoning the device.

    And I keep asking (and keep hearing absolutely nothing concrete in response) of all these that say they know what's going to happen - when is it going to happen. If someone is that sure of themselves, surely they have a rough idea of the time frame.

    Of course, the answer on that is obvious. They're not going to say. If they were to say, and the date were to come and go with Palm still in the running, then they would be shown to be wrong. Absent giving real information, they can continue to spout vague but dire predictions about their impending doom.

    As they have been doing for about 3 or 4 years now.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Honestly, you should see that apps have been slowed. And it also seems that as easy as palm has made cross platforms apps to be ported, that alot of them should be being ported over at a pretty speedy pace. And we just arent seeing it.
    I haven't run the numbers to say whether or not apps have "slowed." However, we're note seeing PDK apps yet because webOS doesn't yet support their distribution in the App Catalog.

    Now, I'm sure Palm is working feverishly to get the update ready that will enable widespread (beta) PDK app distribution. And, sooner rather than later would be best. But until they do, we won't see any PDK apps that Palm hasn't customized for release.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  17. #57  
    Sounds to me like I should start buying palm stock so when they come out of this slump I can cash in.
    16 Candles, The Breakfast Club SB, Friday SB, App Catalog Fix, Palm Pre/Pixi - USB Modem, TMC Workaround, SCRIM Changing OTF

    The fastest way to install Preware on your WebOS device.
    Put your device in Developer mode.
    From your PC download the Preware installer from http://get.preware.org
    Run the Preware installer while the WebOS device is connected with the USB cable to your PC.
    Vualla Preware is installed.]
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by demetry14 View Post
    Sounds to me like I should start buying palm stock so when they come out of this slump I can cash in.
    If.

    I hope they pull through, but that's not necessarily a given. Regardless, I think they still have a year or two left no matter what.

    But that's every bit as much a wild guess as any other opinion out there.
  19. #59  
    OK, as soon as everything Palm has planned for this phone hits Dev full speed... They will probably be fine after that.

    NASDAQ is just not a place for money anyway. No one learned in th 1930's and no one will learn today.

    PALM (NASDAQ) - Down 1.65 today
    Google (NASDAQ) - Down 6.40 today
    Apple (NASDAQ) - Down 2.40 today
    Last edited by demetry14; 03/20/2010 at 02:12 AM.
    16 Candles, The Breakfast Club SB, Friday SB, App Catalog Fix, Palm Pre/Pixi - USB Modem, TMC Workaround, SCRIM Changing OTF

    The fastest way to install Preware on your WebOS device.
    Put your device in Developer mode.
    From your PC download the Preware installer from http://get.preware.org
    Run the Preware installer while the WebOS device is connected with the USB cable to your PC.
    Vualla Preware is installed.]
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    If.

    I hope they pull through, but that's not necessarily a given. Regardless, I think they still have a year or two left no matter what.

    But that's every bit as much a wild guess as any other opinion out there.
    I was about to post this at the end of the thread, but a response here is as good as any other place.

    Here's a much more balanced look at the facts (and even some predictions):

    Reuters.com

    There are some pretty important points in the article (one of them touched on by Joe):

    • Morgan Joseph analyst Ilya Grozovsky estimated the company may only have enough cash to operate through the middle of 2011, given its expenses and persistent losses. It should be noted, that's current expenses and persistent losses. If the losses increase, it could be less time. If the losses decrease, and profits start, it will be more time.
    • While Palm's share price has plunged 72 percent since the first deal in June 2007, the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals. Palm's filings show that Elevation has invested a total of $460 million in the company, an investment that is worth $432 million today based on Friday's close of $4.00. In other words, their biggest investor hasn't lost much money. They're not seeing a profit, which is what investment companies want to see, but they haven't lost money either.
    • And here's my favorite Rubinstein also mentioned that the company would introduce a new product this year, but provided no specifics.
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