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  1.    #1  
    Let Me Be Clear: This is not a criticism of VoiceStream, the Treo nor Handspring, but important information in evaluating from whom you purchase the Treo at what price.

    Well, its true. I held a Treo 180 in my hand at Best Buy
    tonight. However, Best Buy is only carrying the 180 and
    it is branded a VoiceStream Phone for $299 with activation
    through Saturday. Then, it will be $399 with activation.

    The box barcode is labeled with VoiceStream and inside the box is the VoiceStream Welcome package (the sales guy let me look
    through the instruction book). I thought, uh-oh.....

    I ask the rep, and he claims that the Treo 180 is indeed
    locked to VoiceStream. This issue should be carefully
    considered before purchasing. He said Best Buy has
    no intention of selling the Treo as a stand-alone product.

    That isn't bad if you don't travel outside of the US and want
    to use international pre-paid cards.... Or you don' t mind
    going through the hassle of getting VoiceStream to unlock
    the phone after 1 year.

    Anyway, I wanted to point this important little detail out.

    To be forewarned is ... is... well its something.

    BTW, you have 72 hours to cancel a contract with VoiceStream
    (an any carrier for that matter).

    -henry
    Last edited by hmp32; 04/02/2002 at 03:43 AM.
  2. #2  
    Originally posted by hmp32

    That isn't bad if you don't travel outside of the US and want
    to use international pre-paid cards.... Or you don' t mind
    going through the hassel of getting VoiceStream to unlock
    the phone after 1 year.
    Have I misunderstood something? Isn't the Treo a GSM phone (dual band world phone)? Isn't VoiceStream affiliated with Deutche Telecom?
  3.    #3  
    GSM based phones can be SERVICE PROVIDER locked
    which is different than SIM locking.

    And neither of the above types of locking has anything to do with the phone being able to physically receive a signal in the 1900 and 900 bands that the US phones are able to use.

    Remember, there are also 3 bands that GSM uses: 1900, 900
    and 800. The Treo actually only supports two bands: 1900/900
    here and in Europe; 1900/800 in Asia.

    VoiceStream is the US subsidiary of Deutche Telecom.
    So, the VoiceStream policies are set in accordance with how
    they want to define the US Market. So again, just because
    you get a VoiceStream phone in the US, it does not follow that you are automatically a Deutche Telcom customer in Europe.
    And what about Asia?

    So, VoiceStream being part of Deutche com really has nothing
    to do with the Treo physically being able to work outside of the
    US.

    If you check cellphone-centric sites, you will find that VoiceStream
    will unlock phones you buy that are lock into them. But they will generally only do it after you have maintained 3 months service
    and then only after a lot of hassle. They would rather see you pay international roaming rates than buy a local pre-paid card.


    -henry

    I am not being critical of Handspring, the Treo, nor VoiceStream.
    Oneway US based cellphone companies draw in customers is
    to subsidize the cost from the retail price of the phone. You pay
    for this subsidy and the Treo/VoiceStream/Best Buy deal
    seems no different from that standard practice. If you will
    never use the phone outside of the US and won't change to Cingular/AT&T, then getting the discount is worth something. If, however, the SERVICE PROVIDER locking could be an issue, then the discount is worth less or nothing at all.
    Last edited by hmp32; 04/01/2002 at 11:21 PM.
  4. #4  
    I received my treo 180 from Handspring about 4 weeks ago. It came already activated with Voicestream.
    How do I check if I am locked to Voicestream only?
  5.    #5  
    If you know someone with Cingular or AT&T GSM service,
    ask them to install thier sim card in your phone. If it
    works with thier service, then it isn't locked.

    I am curious, did you have a shrink wrapped welcome to
    voicestream packing your box? Did the barcode label on the treo
    box itself have the letters "VOICESTE" or similar?

    I would suspect if you bought the phone directly from Handspring
    it isn't provide locked.

    And again, I am posting this because of what the sales rep said and the practice with in the industry to provide lock phones....
    The Treo may not actually be provider locked -- but it is a possibility that those that care should ask. Personally, I care


    thanks,
    henry
  6. #6  
    There are some misundersttandements here:

    1. Service provider lock is also known as simlock. This means you can't put a simcard of an other provider in your treo. You must have it unlocked by your current provider (which probably costs money, except after 1 year of subscription). This also goes for pre-paid cards.

    2. The GSM networks in Europe are 900 and 1800 Mhz. In the states these are 900 and 1900mhz. This means that when your provider operates on 900 or 1900 mhz (US) your can phone anywhere under the roaming contracts your provider has with other providers, as long those roaming partner operate on 900 mhz. 900 mhz networks are widely used in Europe, meaning almost every country has at least one operator with full nationwide coverage. Most gsm networks in the US operate on 1900 mhz. No problem because all treo's support 1900 and 900 mhz.

    3. To my knowledge 800mhz networks don't exist.

    4. If it is true that VS has a roaming contract with Deutsche Telekom (wich operates on 900 mhz), this means that it is highly likely you will able to use your phone on DT 900 mhz networks. Because your treo also support 900 mhz. That's the smart move they made at HS. So remember: all teo's support 900 mhz networks, europeans or US ones. If you go outside the US two things are imperative: your provider must have roaming contracts. The network with wich they roam must be on 900 mhz (these two depend on eachother, doesn't make sense to roam with 1800 mhz networks when not much customers have phones wich support 1900 and 1800 and 900 mhz)

    5. You can easily check if your phone is locked. Just put in a simcard from another provider/networkoperator and see if it works. Does? --> no lock.


    Daan
  7.    #7  
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dvdooren
    There are some misundersttandements here:

    1. Service provider lock is also known as simlock. This means you can't put a simcard of an other provider in your treo. You must have it unlocked by your current provider (which probably costs money, except after 1 year of subscription). This also goes for pre-paid cards.


    No, I am correct here. A SERVICE PROVIDER lock is where
    some bits are set on the phone so it will one accept that
    providers SIM cards. A SIM CARD lock is where you have
    set a PIN to prevent its unauthorized use.



    2. The GSM networks in Europe are 900 and 1800 Mhz. In the states these are 900 and 1900mhz. This means that when your provider operates on 900 or 1900 mhz (US) your can phone anywhere under the roaming contracts your provider has with other providers, as long those roaming partner operate on 900 mhz. 900 mhz networks are widely used in Europe, meaning almost every country has at least one operator with full nationwide coverage. Most gsm networks in the US operate on 1900 mhz. No problem because all treo's support 1900 and 900 mhz.



    Thank you for correcting this. I was a little fuzzy on which frequencies were used where. None-the-less, none of the
    Treo's currently available are Tri-Band GSM phones. They
    are 1800/900 in Asian markets and 1900/900 in US and European Markets.



    3. To my knowledge 800mhz networks don't exist.



    I was confused... it is 1800 for GSM not 800. 800 is the analog
    frequency.



    4. If it is true that VS has a roaming contract with Deutsche Telekom (wich operates on 900 mhz), this means that it is highly likely you will able to use your phone on DT 900 mhz networks. Because your treo also support 900 mhz. That's the smart move they made at HS. So remember: all teo's support 900 mhz networks, europeans or US ones. If you go outside the US two things are imperative: your provider must have roaming contracts. The network with wich they roam must be on 900 mhz (these two depend on eachother, doesn't make sense to roam with 1800 mhz networks when not much customers have phones wich support 1900 and 1800 and 900 mhz)



    Again, this remains to be seen. I never said the phone would
    not work in Europe. I simply said that you'd still get dinged for internation rates on the Deutsche network as far as anything I have read. I suspect that pre-paid cards from Deuthcom will
    not work in a VoiceStream locked phone.

    There are cheaper ways that doing internation roam on
    GSM. For example, having your US phone number forward
    to an internation number is generally cheaper under VoiceStream
    than making a call from an internation location. That means
    having a pre-paid European phone card makes sense...

    Also remember, pre-paid phone are common in Europe and do
    not have the negative stigma that they have here in the US.

    However, if your phone is service provider locked, you will
    not be able to use the pre-paid SIM cards.



    5. You can easily check if your phone is locked. Just put in a simcard from another provider/networkoperator and see if it works. Does? --> no lock.



    Didn't I say that in a follow up post?
  8. #8  
    Regarding the Simlock I am persistent. Maybe it's just terminlogy. Here in Europe a simlock means to everybody that the phone can only be used with the simcard from the provider which provided you the phone. They even point that out in campaigns: "nokia 3310 whithout sim-lock now for blablabal".
    If it's just the code to lock unathorized use it would be simple won't?

    regarding your remarks at 4: Roaming can have some advantages. The most important one is also the one not many people realize: suppose you are with your VS subscription and treo in Germany. Suppose you can roam on the DT network. Your calls made in Germany to German numbers (local landline or mobile) are at DT tarif. You don't pay fees or anything extra to VS. DT simply charges the amount you phoned in Germany to VS and they bill you for that amount. The amount DT charges is the same as they would charge someone with a DT subscription. If VS charges you extra for this, that would be strange. This is not the case here in Europe.
    Of course this doen't go for people who call you from the US when you are in Germany roaming on DT network. Then you're paying.


    Other question: I heard that in the US pepole are billed differently. Here in Europe the one who calls pays as long calls are national. If you are abroad, the person who calls you pays the tarif which he would pay of you were "home". You have to pay for the tarif from your home country to the place you are abroad. Rather tricky, so most people don't accept calls when they are abroad. Caller id is usefull here, needless to say.
    But in the US I understood the one who receives a call also has to pay. Is that true?

    Daan
  9.    #9  
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dvdooren
    Regarding the Simlock I am persistent. Maybe it's just terminlogy. Here in Europe a simlock means to everybody that the phone can only be used with the simcard from the provider which provided you the phone. They even point that out in campaigns: "nokia 3310 whithout sim-lock now for blablabal".
    If it's just the code to lock unathorized use it would be simple won't?


    This is a terminology issue. Locking your SIM from unauthorized
    use is different than the Provider locking your phone to only
    work with that providers service. That is a common practice here
    in the US because of how the phones are are sold with service.



    regarding your remarks at 4: Roaming can have some advantages. The most important one is also the one not many people realize: suppose you are with your VS subscription and treo in Germany. Suppose you can roam on the DT network. Your calls made in Germany to German numbers (local landline or mobile) are at DT tarif. You don't pay fees or anything extra to VS. DT simply charges the amount you phoned in Germany to VS and they bill you for that amount. The amount DT charges is the same as they would charge someone with a DT subscription. If VS charges you extra for this, that would be strange. This is not the case here in Europe.
    Of course this doen't go for people who call you from the US when you are in Germany roaming on DT network. Then you're paying.



    Look through www.phonescoop.com. No all cases may be
    more cost effective to have a US phone number forwarded to
    a pre-paid European card. However, I understand that is
    is on .26cents/min to forward internation calls from the US
    on VoiceStream. That is cheaper than paying upwards to
    $US 4.99/min for local or internation calls with VoiceStream.




    Other question: I heard that in the US pepole are billed differently. Here in Europe the one who calls pays as long calls are national. If you are abroad, the person who calls you pays the tarif which he would pay of you were "home". You have to pay for the tarif from your home country to the place you are abroad. Rather tricky, so most people don't accept calls when they are abroad. Caller id is usefull here, needless to say.
    But in the US I understood the one who receives a call also has to pay. Is that true?




    Most simply explained, cell phones (land based phones are
    charged differently), the phone owner pays a per min charge
    for BOTH outgoing and incoming calls. However, most US
    phone companies provide windows of "Unlimited/non-charged"
    use during low volume times on the network.

    VoiceStream, for example, doesn't charge for incoming nor outgoing calls on weekends defined as 12:01am Saturday
    Morning though 12:00am Sunday Night. From Monday-Friday,
    you are charged out of your min bucket, and then an overage
    fee if you exceed your min bucket.

    Taxes are added based on the total cost of the bill (sales taxes)
    rather than the VAT like systems more common in Europe.
  10. #10  
    Originally posted by dvdooren
    There are some misundersttandements here:
    Yes, most notably:
    2. The GSM networks in Europe are 900 and 1800 Mhz. In the states these are 900 and 1900mhz.
    This is incorrect. The two digital spectrums in the US are the 800MHz and 1900MHz frequencies. 800MHz is the original digital standard in the states because it used the same frequency as the original analog AMPS network.
    Most gsm networks in the US operate on 1900 mhz.
    Correct, but not for long. Both Cingular and AT&T are in the process of rolling out GSM in the 800MHz spectrum (well, actually 850MHz, IIRC). This is to both preserve their existing investment in that spectrum and because they have territories where they're the 800MHz carrier but might not have won the 1900MHz spectrum auction.
    No problem because all treo's support 1900 and 900 mhz.
    Well, it might be a problem if you're in an area which only supports GSM800.
    3. To my knowledge 800mhz networks don't exist.
    Your knowledge seems slightly limited, then (not that there's anything wrong with that necessarily). The original analog cellular network in the states as well as the first digital coverage was 800MHz.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by hmp32
    I ask the rep, and he claims that the Treo 180 is indeed
    locked to VoiceStream. This issue should be carefully
    considered before purchasing. He said Best Buy has
    no intention of selling the Treo as a stand-alone product.

    That isn't bad if you don't travel outside of the US and want
    to use international pre-paid cards.... Or you don' t mind
    going through the hassle of getting VoiceStream to unlock
    the phone after 1 year.

    I was told by Best Buy that I could buy the phone without activation. It even said so on the price card ("Additional $200 without activation")

    The SimLock is probably not an issue for most people and I was able to get my Nokia 8290 unlocked after only 4 months. Not much of a hassle, simply sent an email to simunlock@voicestream.com with my IMEI, phone model and phone number and requested the unlock code. I received the code and instructions specific to my phone via email a couple of days later.
  12. wjs
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    #12  
    Some irony here: Voicestream is branding Treos as their own, but on their web site they are touting the future availability of MicroSoft Pocket PC phone software and make no mention of the existence of Treos.
    Bill Spencer
  13. #13  
    Does the Treo enable you to select providors?

    Let me elaborate...

    When I was Germany last year, I found out that If I selected a network from someone other then DT, it would have a cheaper rate. This was easy to do on my Motorola GSM phone, it showed me which network providors we're available and i could easly just select the cheaper one.

    I was still roaming, but it was a cheaper roaming then the phone's default providor (which was DT).

    My question is, and I guess this is for our european readers out there (because there is no providor other then VS in the US), does the Treo have this option? A network selection option?

    I'm going to italy soon, and I plan on purchacing my Treo right before that, so that's why I ask.
    -- Go Illini!
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by wjs
    Some irony here: Voicestream is branding Treos as their own, but on their web site they are touting the future availability of MicroSoft Pocket PC phone software and make no mention of the existence of Treos.
    It's probably just a result of traditional bullying tactics by Micro$oft. They hope to monopolize the PDA & phone markets while the gov't is still busy worrying about Windows98 which is almost moot at this point.
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by hmp32

    Thank you for correcting this. I was a little fuzzy on which frequencies were used where. None-the-less, none of the
    Treo's currently available are Tri-Band GSM phones. They
    are 1800/900 in Asian markets and 1900/900 in US and European Markets.
    Correction again, 900/1900 for US 900/1800 for the rest of the world...

    Follow up Question: how good is the 900 network in the US? and can I buy a prepaid sim for the 900 network in the US so I can use my phone over there?

    As for simlock I guess it is a terminology thing, everywhere but in the US a simlock is used where providers have locked your phone for just their SIMs...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  16. #16  
    Toolkit - prepaid is almsot nonexistant in US. Besides they odn't have you buy a SIM, theyh averyou buy a cheap crappy phone, and than you dial a number enter a credit card nubmer to make it work. In the US I owuldn't go near prepaid!
    -Michael Ducker
    TreoCentral Staff
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by chrisfoster
    Does the Treo enable you to select providors?

    My question is, and I guess this is for our european readers out there (because there is no providor other then VS in the US), does the Treo have this option? A network selection option?
    Hi Chris,

    I have a Visorphone, and it does work in Europe, specifically in Germany, Austria, Chezch Republic, and in Italy, where I travelled. I never had a circumstance where there was no coverage, and I had choices of which provider's I wanted to go thru in most locations.

    There's an option to search for provider's. It probably very similar to the Motorola's setup you are used to. The Treo has this saem functionality, and the US Visorphones and Treos work on the same 800/1900mhz networks.

    Hope that helps!
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by LarryN


    Hi Chris,

    I have a Visorphone, and it does work in Europe, specifically in Germany, Austria, Chezch Republic, and in Italy, where I travelled. I never had a circumstance where there was no coverage, and I had choices of which provider's I wanted to go thru in most locations.

    Yes, the coverage in Europe is beyond excellent. I remember fondly talking to friends while traveling though the subways of Berlin. No way you can do that in America



    There's an option to search for provider's. It probably very similar to the Motorola's setup you are used to. The Treo has this saem functionality, and the US Visorphones and Treos work on the same 800/1900mhz networks.

    Hope that helps!
    That's exactly what I wanted to hear! Thanks!
    -- Go Illini!
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by miradu
    Toolkit - prepaid is almsot nonexistant in US. Besides they odn't have you buy a SIM, theyh averyou buy a cheap crappy phone, and than you dial a number enter a credit card nubmer to make it work.
    I know, thats what I did last time.... still have the crappy Nokia...

    The thing that surprized me most was the airtime billing... You pay when somebody calls you? or when your waiting for connection? What a ripoff!
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  20. #20  
    Originally posted by chrisfoster

    Yes, the coverage in Europe is beyond excellent. I remember fondly talking to friends while traveling though the subways of Berlin. No way you can do that in America
    Coverage is exelent indeed, however, your provider has to have a roaming contract with the foreign providers to make you phone (or more correct your SIM) work abroad...
    Check the website of your provider before you travel..might save you from a dissapointment..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
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