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  1. solarus's Avatar
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    #21  
    Palm would do themselves a service by at least offering a demo of a new Pre, one that will be available sometime during the Summer of 2010. They don't have to do it at CES, they could wait until February and do it at Barcelona. With the competition releasing updates to their high-end devices on a yearly (sometimes less) basis Palm need to provide significant updates to both hardware and software on a regular basis too.

    I'm in agreement with mikah - a larger screen (it doesn't have to be a huge increase - and better build quality is a must. That been said, a drastically more open SDK and a fully utilized GPU is equally important. I'd really like to see a snapdragon Pre too but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I saw someone saying as a possible reason the Pixi not having wifi was to differentiate it from the Pre. This person went on to say, if the Pixi had wifi, customers would have NO reason to spend the extra 50 and get a Pre.

    If this is even remotely true, then what does that have to say for the Pre form factor? Unique, yes. Appealing? Sure. But definitely not the mainstream appeal of a Pixi form factor, iphone's, or a Droid. And crippling another form factor (dropping wifi) to keep the Pre viable?
    The Pixi had to be cheaper right out of the box. Palm was right to provide a phone at the lower-end of the smartphone spectrum--there is basically no competition there. Everyone else is tripping over themselves to produce the high-end phones. Palm won't be able to compete with that, no matter what they do, since the high-end is obsolete so quickly.

    So, Pixi gets cost cutting compromises. Wifi may have been one cut too many for lots of people, but if you live in an area with good EVDO coverage (lots of people do), it won't hurt you to not have the wifi, especially if you've never had it before.

    But even if the Pixi had wifi, I would still rather have the Pre for the larger screen and the better processor (with apparently more RAM). And that would easily be worth the $50 to me.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I guess there are only so many chipsets out there that they are utterly incapable of utilizing. Why add another?
    Yeah, there's another fine example of realistic contributions to the forum. Of course in anything they do, they will be "utterly incapable of utilizing it", becuase you have deemed it so after 6 whole months of abject failure (in your view, of course). Yet somehow, during that time, they've managed to refloat the company.

    Personally, I'm glad their mission is all about Palm, rather than keeping one particular user happy...
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Much more exciting would be previews of WebOS 2.0, with discussion about how it will run on the current crop of devices. That would allow buyers to not worry about buying hardware now, while continuing to tantalize the world with the possibilities for WebOS.
    I suspect that if anything, this is what they'll be announcing. I don't think it's "earth-shattering" enough though to be a big announcement. Probably something they'll just do, and leak some buzz about it.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Yeah, there's another fine example of realistic contributions to the forum. Of course in anything they do, they will be "utterly incapable of utilizing it", becuase you have deemed it so after 6 whole months of abject failure (in your view, of course). Yet somehow, during that time, they've managed to refloat the company.

    Personally, I'm glad their mission is all about Palm, rather than keeping one particular user happy...
    Feeling emotional and vulnerable this morning?

    FACT: The chipset of the Pre and Pixi contains a GPU.
    FACT: As of yet, they have been incapable of using this part of the chipset.

    Nobody was talking about "anything they do" or any other such nonsense you want to throw in to derail the conversation. I said in this ONE VERY LIMITED INSTANCE, they have failed to utilize the technology placed in their handsets. That is true. Go play somewhere with that other BS.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    The Pixi had to be cheaper right out of the box. Palm was right to provide a phone at the lower-end of the smartphone spectrum--there is basically no competition there. Everyone else is tripping over themselves to produce the high-end phones. Palm won't be able to compete with that, no matter what they do, since the high-end is obsolete so quickly.
    Cardfan and I greatly disagree. There's no need to shoot for cheaper, low-end WebOS handsets PRECISELY because of the reason you cite above for why they should do it.

    That is, the market is so competitive these days, your "high-end" handset will likely be a budget item 6-12 months after launch (see: iPhone 3G). You should have a new handset in place with a more current high-end set of specs. By going in the OPPOSITE direction, Palm is only creating confusion and lowering the base spec of WebOS, which will fracture the development efforts to bolster the App Catalog. Just look at Best Buy. For $99, I can get a brand new Pixi...or a brand new Pre. Which one is the high-end handset again?

    So, Pixi gets cost cutting compromises. Wifi may have been one cut too many for lots of people, but if you live in an area with good EVDO coverage (lots of people do), it won't hurt you to not have the wifi, especially if you've never had it before.
    It's not just the Wifi. It's the dimmer screen. It's the slower chipset. The crappier camera. If this is the mass market representative to WebOS, then developers will only have incentive to develop applications that can run on the smaller resolution, cheap camera and slower processor. That's not good.
  7. #27  
    The far, far better move for Palm, IMHO, would be to announce some major WebOS upgrades for the Pixi and the Pre. Improve upon the strengths that have people looking at (and moving to) the Pre and Pixi:

    1. Get the onboard GPU working at full steam. The OS must feel zippy and full of pep, especially when compared to the iPhone. This will keep those of us who already have the device feeling happy and satisfied with our decision. It is important for Palm to keep its core happy, as they are the ones who will ultimately act as evangelists and built support for the device through word of mouth advertising.

    2. Add a little more "polish and shine" to WebOS, like adding official support for themes and making a themes section for the App Catalog. Heck, allow users to download more than 1 theme and combine aspects of various themes they like right on the device (like icons from 1, boot screen from another, etc.) This might sound simple, and might not be a big deal to many of us right now... But keep in mind that this is something the iPhone doesn't do out of the box (and it doesn't look like Apple plans to allow this any time soon). Given that Palm is marketing these devices to tweens (particularly the Pixi there), customization-- both inside and outside-- is important. It allows for a "one up" on the iPhone, and possibly Android devices (don't know about those since I haven't used any).

    3. Get Flash before Android and the iPhone. (I think this will happen.) Another marketing point in Palm's favor then, especially if the GPU is fully engaged by then and the phone is capable of running a lot of flash-based games from the web. The release of a stable, working Flash app should be one of those "milestone moments" for WebOS-- Palm should be building a WebOS flash portal community site to capitalize on this key difference. The site should link to "best of the web" Flash sites, and be a community that allows Pre and Pixi owners to discuss and add their own links as well. Design this for the Pre and Pixi screens, and add code that checks for Pre and Pixi browsers. Give the site a feel of exclusivity.

    4. Improve upon the web browser. It's good, but can still be made better. Sometimes there is an issue with clicking on links; this needs to be fixed. I believe there is still a memory leak issue that needs resolved. And make sure it scores at least as good as the iPhone on mobile browser tests. People who are using these phones use data, and consume much of it by surfing the web.

    5. License a podcast utility and include it on the phone. Dr. Podder would be my choice, since it allows users to download podcasts and listen later. I just wish it did video. (If anyone knows of a podcast app that does video and allows users to download both audio and video podcasts for listening to at later times, please let me know... I'm craving one!) This allows Palm to at least match (and maybe one-up?) Apple when it comes to podcasts.

    6. Can someone say recording? Both audio and video recording are necessities. At least match what the iPhone 3GS does in this department for video. And create a simple audio recording app as well. At a minimum, video recording is a necessity. (I think Palm is starting to get close to having this.)

    At the same time Palm should also start working on courting developers. Not the new guy-in-a-basement-coding-another-soundboard-app type, but real hard-core folks. Palm needs to bring folks like Electronic Arts and the like on board to build games (like Need for Speed, etc.) that use that shiny new GPU chip. Start targeting some of the top iPhone developers and bring them over to WebOS.

    If Palm needs to borrow money to create some "exclusivity contract" kind of deals with these developers, they should consider doing so. The biggest advantage that both Android and iPhone have are the apps available for both platforms. For Palm to catch up, they need to make some investments in supporting developers and bringing some big names to the WebOS platform.

    Of course, realizing the dream of big name WebOS developers bringing big name blockbuster titles to WebOS will also mean releasing a robust SDK with the ability to do things like record stuff from the phone's mike (for one).

    The WebOS community at large can get involved with trying to bring big titles and big name developers over too, and I'd suggest that Palm once again consider the vast resource their community represents. Rally people to contact developers about bringing apps to WebOS. Provide incentives for organizing efforts that provide results... like a free second generation Pre, or 3/6 months of free service on your wireless provider. Have communities target popular iPhone and Android apps (like Slacker, Shazaam, Facebook, and the like) and get their developers to write apps for WebOS.

    If Palm successfully executes the above strategy, I think they would see a much greater degree of penetration into the smartphone market than current, and be able to build upon this success with the design and release of a Pre2 and Pixi2.
    Follow me on Twitter! I'm simply WebOSFan there.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Feeling emotional and vulnerable this morning?

    FACT: The chipset of the Pre and Pixi contains a GPU.
    FACT: As of yet, they have been incapable of using this part of the chipset.

    Nobody was talking about "anything they do" or any other such nonsense you want to throw in to derail the conversation. I said in this ONE VERY LIMITED INSTANCE, they have failed to utilize the technology placed in their handsets. That is true. Go play somewhere with that other BS.
    Actually, you did more than say "this ONE VERY LIMITED INSTANCE", you very clearly implied that if they added another chipset, they would be incapable of utilizing it. See below.

    I guess there are only so many chipsets out there that they are utterly incapable of utilizing. Why add another?
    If I've somehow misinterpreted your meaning, maybe you'd like to clear it up for us.
  9. #29  
    It's only going to keep descending to Pixi price territory.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with what you said but have one question...these days how is price a reflection of anything when a phone like the Hero that just came out is already at my local Best Buy for $99? The Iphone is at $99 ( i know it originally wasnt). To me, its more a reflection of what people WILL and CAN pay for a phone and the competitors need to compete with Apple as much as they can, especially when so many people on here seem to LOVE the iphone. Its just my opinion, but the Hero is already descending to Pixi price...at Least in area around DC/NOVA
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, you did more than say "this ONE VERY LIMITED INSTANCE", you very clearly implied that if they added another chipset, they would be incapable of utilizing it. See below.

    If I've somehow misinterpreted your meaning, maybe you'd like to clear it up for us.
    My meaning was clear to pretty much everybody but you. Any further comment would be an insult to you and a waste of time to me. Bye.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by brian.johnson115 View Post
    I agree with what you said but have one question...these days how is price a reflection of anything when a phone like the Hero that just came out is already at my local Best Buy for $99?
    Verizon kinda boned Best Buy because they set the price of the Eris at $99. Best Buy has a national retail exclusive on the HTC Hero, but they have to sell Droid Eris handsets too, which are identical. So they took a haircut in order to keep moving the one they invested floor space and ad space in.

    The Iphone is at $99 ( i know it originally wasnt). To me, its more a reflection of what people WILL and CAN pay for a phone and the competitors need to compete with Apple as much as they can, especially when so many people on here seem to LOVE the iphone. Its just my opinion, but the Hero is already descending to Pixi price...at Least in area around DC/NOVA
    And if it's a race to the bottom, how does releasing a cheaper, crappier handset help Palm? People keep citing the Centro as a precedent because it was mass market and sold three million units and blah blah blah. What it also did was lock Palm into a low profitability cycle which didn't get broken until the Pre arrived.

    HTC has made their money off the Hero worldwide. They already have a successor lined up, and their 2010 plans leaked just a day or two ago. They're moving upward, not backward. Palm would do well to head in the same direction going forward.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by hsiegal30 View Post
    More important than new phones, they need to focus on making Webos significantly better. There is a lot (a lot) of work that needs to be done for current Pre owners. That along with taking the App Catalog out of Beta would be very nice to announce. They also need to get those patches (on screen keyboard, video recorder, etc.) into the main OS systemt rather than having individuals put patches on their phone. Plus, I want google navigation, if android has it, Webos needs to have it if they want to stay with the current changing times. Make webos better than it already is, than get a new phone out there.
    My thoughts exactly... Palm needs to get the full potential out of this device before they go and make another... Hey we dont even have GPU support ect.. I think they need to try to perfect this phone and webos and then maybe think about the pre 2..
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Cardfan and I greatly disagree. There's no need to shoot for cheaper, low-end WebOS handsets PRECISELY because of the reason you cite above for why they should do it.
    I know, that's why I said it. I respect your opinion, and I think it has merit. I think both strategies (high-end and low-end) have pros and cons. I would say that the Pre is still pretty high-end, and it was quite high-end a year ago. But upon release, it was already not quite the best anymore in terms of raw hardware specs. Palm needs (badly) to increase sales volume (for WebOS purposes more so than profit), and a higher-end device would have helped, but not as much as a lower-end device. Given their experience with the Centro and that set of customers, I think the lower-end device was a natural choice. Higher-end would have brought less sales volume, but it would have brought a good deal of prestige. Palm needs prestige too, but I think they need it less than sales volume.

    I understand the developer angle, but I don't think raw processor power is going to make much difference to apps until a native development SDK is out. Screen size is not that big of a deal. So while this part of the argument is correct, I don't think it outweighs the need for sheer sales volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It's not just the Wifi. It's the dimmer screen. It's the slower chipset. The crappier camera. If this is the mass market representative to WebOS, then developers will only have incentive to develop applications that can run on the smaller resolution, cheap camera and slower processor. That's not good.
    I know the spec compromises well. I know there are a number of them. Add to your list less RAM. I just don't think any of these are that big a deal with respect to where we are with the current SDK. I know, I know, you want that rectified too.

    You could go either way with this. But since you and cardfan are intelligent and vocal, I thought I'd throw another voice in the ring, since there's another side that isn't being aired (namely that the Pixi might not have been such a bad business move after all). I like to play devil's advocate.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    My meaning was clear to pretty much everybody but you. Any further comment would be an insult to you and a waste of time to me. Bye.
    Thanks for clearing it up. It's interesting, you throw out totally unrelated information (and yes, your nonsense about Palm being "incapable" is nonsense), refuse to clarify explicitly, then accuse me of attempting to "derail" the thread.

    I think your intent was pretty clear. I suspect you are wrong. You present something as "fact", when the truth is it is simply your opinion (are you 100% sure that Palm that "as of yet, they have been incapable of using this part of the chipset" or is it entirely possible that they are capable, but have other priorities)?

    My point is that why throw in insluts to Palm that have no real foundation, when they aren't pertinent to the discussion?

    If they are pertinent, then let's discuss them. But please, dispense with the "attempts to derail the tread" nonsense. You brought the issue up.
  15. #35  
    +1 ...on WebOS 2.0 vs. Pre2

    Pre2 would show consumers that Palm is not confident enough in the device by releasing an update only 6 months after the original...

    I'm sure the less than geeky folks would prefer confidence in what they are purchasing...These days people very often make purchases based on how the feel about something.

    Also people need to see all the potential of the WebOS, especially after I saw an ad for the iPhone the other day which made it appear it could fully multitask.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    ...
    You could go either way with this. But since you and cardfan are intelligent and vocal, I thought I'd throw another voice in the ring, since there's another side that isn't being aired (namely that the Pixi might not have been such a bad business move after all). I like to play devil's advocate.
    I suspect that before long, the Pixi is going to be free with a new contract. It's one of the things that's kept BB in the game, and I don't see any reason for that not to happen with Pre.

    I agree that rather than raw power hardware, Palm's immediate need is wider deployment of WebOS. The Pixi is definitely poised to help with that.

    In the meantime, I believe the further development of WebOS will do more immediate good than throwing new hardware into the mix.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    FACT: The chipset of the Pre and Pixi contains a GPU.
    FACT: As of yet, they have been incapable of using this part of the chipset.
    Just one minor correction. As of yet, Palm has not used this part of the chipset publicly. This does not necessarily imply that they are incapable, at least not from a pure logic standpoint.

    I agree they need to do it, I just think it's slightly unfair to say they're incapable of doing it.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  18. urkel's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by hsiegal30 View Post
    More important than new phones, they need to focus on making Webos significantly better. There is a lot (a lot) of work that needs to be done for current Pre owners.
    New Hardware really doesn't seem appropriate because Pre owners seem to fall into two categories. Superfans or Disgruntled.

    SuperFans:
    - Claim their phones are fast, sturdy and perfect. If that's the case then why would they invest in the Pre2 then.

    DisgruntledFans:
    - Suffer from numerous issues tied to both the OS and Hardware.
    - Are chastised by Superfans because "Look, you're an early adopter so you should've known what you were getting into". So if new products are assumed to be flawed then why invest in a new Pre2?


    Some people find it fun to side with the underdog but nobody wants to invest in a product that isn't getting cared for properly. WebOS came out as an innovator but now we're watching them struggle to play catch up because the industry seems to be moving too fast for them.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    I know, that's why I said it. I respect your opinion, and I think it has merit. I think both strategies (high-end and low-end) have pros and cons. I would say that the Pre is still pretty high-end, and it was quite high-end a year ago. But upon release, it was already not quite the best anymore in terms of raw hardware specs. Palm needs (badly) to increase sales volume (for WebOS purposes more so than profit), and a higher-end device would have helped, but not as much as a lower-end device. Given their experience with the Centro and that set of customers, I think the lower-end device was a natural choice. Higher-end would have brought less sales volume, but it would have brought a good deal of prestige. Palm needs prestige too, but I think they need it less than sales volume.
    Where does the idea of lower-end equal sales volume come in, tho? Only one Android device that I know of is on track to sell 1 million units in 30-odd days. It's not the cheapest one. It's the highest-end one to date.

    Apple pushed the iPhone 3G down to "low-end" status when it released the 3GS, and priced it to match. Yet, when the smartphone sales stats for Q2 of this year came out, the 3GS ranked above the 3G.

    Palm should learn that lesson. It's not really about prestige, but more about keeping up with the market and moving everything upward (specs, screen size, number of apps, etc.). That's what compels buyers. Low prices...eh, everybody has those.

    You want "sales volume"? Price isn't the answer. Not when everyone is playing in the same $99-199 range.

    Let me say, tho, that I really appreciate your arguments and your ability to disagree without being disagreeable. I would say Hparsons could learn a thing or two, but I don't think he would, honestly.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Just one minor correction. As of yet, Palm has not used this part of the chipset publicly. This does not necessarily imply that they are incapable, at least not from a pure logic standpoint.

    I agree they need to do it, I just think it's slightly unfair to say they're incapable of doing it.
    Well, I believe it was Sherlock Holmes who believed that if you eliminate every other possibility, what remains must be the truth, however unlikely.

    I can think of no situation in which Palm was capable of enabling and using the GPU - which would provide benefits in terms of speed, responsiveness, battery usage, and application power - yet chose not to until six months+ after launching two handsets, an SDK, several OS updates and over 500 apps.

    Thus, one would be forced to conclude that they cannot.
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