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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Because it was a lazy comparison that should never have been made in the first place. Enron isn't even a good example of the public assuming a company can never go under. Even before Enron was suspected of corruption, Fortune magazine and others were questioning the company's high valuation.
    Well people are now questioning whether Palm might go bust. There's something relative here although not regarding corporate corruption.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    That's absurd. How in the world does the Treo Pro look like the iPhone? It has a front facing QWERTY keyboard and a square screen. The iPhone's hallmark is its buttonless, touchscreen-only interface that spans most of the length of the device. Please, take a break from your iPhone reverence and realize that black rectangles have been the default alternative to clamshells for more than a decade. The Treo Pro looks more like my circa 1998 Qualcomm QCP-2760 then the iPhone.
    It's an IPhone hack.

    But even your comparisons prove it's something less than a new innovation. Thanks for helping me prove my point.
  3. #43  
    How? The Touch Diamond is more of an iPhone hack in WM style than the Pro!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well people are now questioning whether Palm might go bust. There's something relative here although not regarding corporate corruption.
    Hmm, let's see . . . Enron's a corporation. Palm's a corporation. Erron went bust. Oh, yeah -- therefore Palm is going bust!

    There's no shame in acknowledging a lazy comparison.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    It's an IPhone hack.
    Sorry, your truth-by-repeated-assertion might work with morons, but for the rest of us, you'll need to explain how the Treo Pro, with its front facing keyboard, resembles the touchscreen-only iPhone (hint: it doesn't).

    But even your comparisons prove it's something less than a new innovation. Thanks for helping me prove my point.
    The point that any bar phone other than the iPhone is not innovative? Not much of a point. But we're agreed: Palm needs to bring something new to the table to stave off extinction.
  6. #46  
    Actually I think they should go back to mass production(like the Centro), while we wait for this big innovation of theirs. Just so they can stay afloat. If they could offer phones with up to date features and no bugs. First up, offer the Treo Pro subsidized. I really think now, that it was a mistake not to do this sooner. But they can't get away with charging $550 and expect to sell a massive amount of phones. Not anymore.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Hmm, let's see . . . Enron's a corporation. Palm's a corporation. Erron went bust. Oh, yeah -- therefore Palm is going bust!

    There's no shame in acknowledging a lazy comparison.
    As I've already noted, it was never to be a direct comparison, but rather a statement that even some that once were thought to be in better shape later fell. I'm not sure what you desire to make of it, but what you're making of it is not ever what I was trying to make of it.

    The Treo Pro is very much the Palm IPhone clone. Yes they kept the keyboard on the front, but removed even the soft keys to try and give it the IPhone flush touch screen appeal. And if you didn't know, some former Apple designers now work for Palm. That should be more than enough evidence.

    But I know you'll still claim I'm way off, so I guess TC is off their rockers with me right?
    Treo Pro Review by Dieter Bohn.
    In the Box: The Treo Pro comes in a very professional-looking (and iPhone-reminiscent),...
    The flush touchscreen (we've waited so long!) is fairly responsive -- though of course it's no iPhone.
    ...
    I wonder why thoughts of it being iPhone-reminiscent came up?
  8. #48  
    That was the reviewer's OWN impression. To me, the Pro looks like a beefed up WM Centro. Although I haven't seen it in person. Maybe the impression is different live.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The Treo Pro is very much the Palm IPhone clone. Yes they kept the keyboard on the front, but removed even the soft keys to try and give it the IPhone flush touch screen appeal. And if you didn't know, some former Apple designers now work for Palm. That should be more than enough evidence.
    People have been demanding flush screens from Palm for years, back when the iPhone was nothing more than rumors. Countless cell phones prior to the iPhone, from my decade-old QCP-2760 to the BB Curve, have had flush screens. The same applies to the 3.5mm audio jack and WiFi. None of these features are exclusive to or even original with the iPhone, and all have been long-standing demands from Palm critics and fanboys alike.

    The fact that Apple designers now work at Palm is irrelevant to your original assertion. You claimed that the Treo Pro "is an iPhone hack," despite the serious design differences: the front-facing keyboard, the narrower and longer body, and the square screen. If removing the soft keys is the best case you can make for any resemblance, you're truly clutching at straws. It would be like me claiming the iPhone was a Treo knock-off because it has a ringer switch.

    But I know you'll still claim I'm way off, so I guess TC is off their rockers with me right?
    You're always welcome to start making logical arguments when you're through lobbing ad homeniem locutions like "off their rockers." Instead of playing the victim to avoid people pointing out the flaws in your comparisons, why not just have the dignity to admit that the examples were poorly chosen? Defending a mistake only multiplies it.

    I wonder why thoughts of it being iPhone-reminiscent came up?
    Hmm. Let's quote the full sentence instead of conveniently snipping the context out of it:
    The Treo Pro comes in a very professional-looking (and iPhone-reminiscent), small, white box.
    By leaving out the "small, white box," you've allowed others reading this thread to infer that Dieter was talking about the device, not its packaging. At least you had the honesty to quote the touchscreen comment in full:
    The flush touchscreen (we've waited so long!) is fairly responsive -- though of course it's no iPhone.
    I've emphasized "is fairly responsive" because it's the responsiveness of the touchscreen that's being compared, not the design. Suppose I said, "The Prius is a nice car, but it's no Lexus." Does this imply that the Prius somehow resembles the Lexus? Of course not.
    Last edited by Gameboy70; 10/28/2008 at 08:25 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    People have been demanding flush screens from Palm for years, back when the iPhone was nothing more than rumors. Countless cell phones prior to the iPhone, from my decade-old QCP-2760 to the BB Curve, have had flush screens. The same applies to the 3.5mm audio jack and WiFi. None of these features are exclusive to or even original with the iPhone, and all have been long-standing demands from Palm critics and fanboys alike.
    Flush screens that are touchable. Unlike the devices you've mentioned.

    The fact that Apple designers now work at Palm is irrelevant to your original assertion. You claimed that the Treo Pro "is an iPhone hack," despite the serious design differences: the front-facing keyboard, the narrower and longer body, and the square screen. If removing the soft keys is the best case you can make for any resemblance, you're truly clutching at straws. It would be like me claiming the iPhone was a Treo knock-off because it has a ringer switch.
    The ringer switch was a Palm innovation. But the Treo Pro color, layout and even the packaging of the Treo Pro is very much IPhone based. Given the Treo's one advantage is a keyboard it's a given that would be included.



    You're always welcome to start making logical arguments when you're through lobbing ad homeniem locutions like "off their rockers." Instead of playing the victim to avoid people pointing out the flaws in your comparisons, why not just have the dignity to admit that the examples were poorly chosen? Defending a mistake only multiplies it.
    It's nice you're confident in your viewpoint, but it does not dismiss what is obvious to so many of us. The Treo Pro was designed to have an IPhone look.

    Hmm. Let's quote the full sentence instead of conveniently snipping the context out of it:

    By leaving out the "small, white box," you've allowed others reading this thread to infer that Dieter was talking about the device, not its packaging. At least you had the honesty to quote the touchscreen comment in full: I've emphasized "is fairly responsive" because it's the responsiveness of the touchscreen that's being compared, not the design. Suppose I said, "The Prius is a nice car, but it's no Lexus." Does this imply that the Prius somehow resembles the Lexus? Of course not.
    The packaging mimics the IPhone and so does the design of what is in that box. Because the Treo Pro was made to have an IPhone look.

    OK, now tell us how the folks are Wired.com are also wrong.
    We recently had the displeasure of testing the upcoming 800w. Yuck. This disappointing misfire is essentially a chintzy blue brick with minimal added functionality (aside from WiFi). Then the Pro showed up with its shiny, rounded, tuxedo-black exterior and a handful of practical OS “shortcuts." Aside from the industrial iPhone-like design lines, those shortcuts are enough to make even the most die-hard Machead grin and bear Windows Mobile (almost).
    And the folks at ZDNet. Who open their Treo Pro review with the following:
    Palm Treo Pro

    Beneath its iPhone-esque exterior lurks a very capable business phone.The Palm Treo Pro may not have the snazzy interface designs of the competition, but this means it performs better in most areas.

    Design
    If a work colleague had left the new Palm Treo Pro face down on their desk you'd be forgiven for mistaking it for Apple's iPhone 3G. The Treo Pro's glossy piano-black case with its smooth, rounded corners looks almost identical to Apple's beloved smartphone, save for the large, silver Palm badging. Turn the Pro over and it's a different story, its keyboard layout and navigation keys are all Palm, strongly reminiscent of the Treo handsets we saw last year.
    ...
    Although they kept the keyboard, the Treo Pro is very much designed to look like an IPhone.

    And they continue:
    On the back of the Palm the iPhone comparison continue further with a 2-megapixel camera lens without a flash. There is also a mute switch on the top of the Treo Pro for quickly silencing your phone during meetings or movies, and unlike many competing smartphones, the Pro also sports a 3.5mm headphone jack at its base, helping it to be quite a handy media player as well.
    Sure Palm placed some of their own features on it, but the foundational design is very much an IPhone copy.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Flush screens that are touchable. Unlike the devices you've mentioned.
    You need to keep your stories straight. You argued that Treo Pro "simply copies the IPhone look." Now you want to revise your argument to include touchscreen functionality that's been on Treos since 2001, when they were Handspring devices? Again, the Treo has been criticized for year for lacking a flush screen, not for lacking a touchscreen.


    The ringer switch was a Palm innovation. But the Treo Pro color, layout and even the packaging of the Treo Pro is very much IPhone based. Given the Treo's one advantage is a keyboard it's a given that would be included.
    Let's deconstruct these "iPhone" attributes one by one. Black: Treo 180 (which simply copies the StarTAC, I'll bet). "Layout" (whatever that means): rectangular touchscreen as primary interface vs. QWERTY keyboard and square inset screen -- fundamentally different. The only all-touchscreen phone prior to the iPhone that had anything to do with Palm was the Samsung i330 with POS onboard. And you can't have it both ways: if it's a given that Palm would include the QWERTY keyboard, it's also a given that Palm would include a touchscreen. But then again, touchscreens never existed before the iPhone, as we all know.

    The packaging is certainly derivative of Apple. I never argued otherwise, as you're clearly aware. For the benefit of readers who missed it, you quoted a sentence in Dieter's Treo Pro review as:
    In the Box: The Treo Pro comes in a very professional-looking (and iPhone-reminiscent),...
    When the actual sentence in full read:
    The Treo Pro comes in a very professional-looking (and iPhone-reminiscent), small, white box.
    By conveniently redacting the "small, white box," you disingenuously left readers to infer that the Treo Pro itself was "iPhone-reminiscent." Unfortunately, not everyone's too lazy to look up deliberate misquotes designed to buttress a faltering argument.

    It's nice you're confident in your viewpoint, but it does not dismiss what is obvious to so many of us. The Treo Pro was designed to have an IPhone look.
    More content-free generalities. Of all the devices you could've legitimately claimed to have copied the iPhone look -- the Samsung Instinct, the HTC Touch, the LG Dare, the BB Storm -- you single out a QWERTY device and play it off as if its defining characteristic was incidental.


    The packaging mimics the IPhone and so does the design of what is in that box.
    As your deliberate misquote of the TC Treo Pro review insinuated. Yes, I got the memo the first time.

    OK, now tell us how the folks are Wired.com are also wrong.
    Better still, I'll let a commenter in that article do it for me:
    Its funny how everyone (journalist) say that all these other phones look like an iphone, you can only design a phone in so many ways, front, back and the four sides. Im sick of hearing, "it looks like an iphone" well of course moron, it has 6 sides, maybe the iphone looks like a blackberry!!!
    As embarrassing as it is to have to respond to the likes of ZDNet, I suppose I'll have to since you stooped to use them as an "authority."
    Beneath its iPhone-esque exterior lurks a very capable business phone.The Palm Treo Pro may not have the snazzy interface designs of the competition, but this means it performs better in most areas.
    Ah, there's that "iPhone-esque" description again. And it even looks like this time, they're not referring to the packaging! Let's examine their definition of an iPhone-esque exterior in slow motion . . .
    If a work colleague had left the new Palm Treo Pro face down on their desk you'd be forgiven for mistaking it for Apple's iPhone 3G. The Treo Pro's glossy piano-black case with its smooth, rounded corners looks almost identical to Apple's beloved smartphone, save for the large, silver Palm badging.
    Uh, did I read that right? Are they saying the back of the Treo Pro looks like the back of the iPhone?! And not just the iPhone (or "IPhone" as you call it), but the iPhone 3G whose design never saw the light of day until six weeks before the Treo Pro was announced? A pretty fast design-to-release cycle, considering the glacier-like pace of Palm's usual product development. Someone should tell the Nova team to get hip to how things get done in other parts of the company.

    Never mind the fact that the back of the iPhone 3G is convex and the Treo Pro is flush (but it has rounded corners, never before seen on cell phones!). Never mind the fact that black phones are rumored to have black backs. Never mind the fact that most black phones, when face down, are entirely indistinguishable. What matters is that we have at least threadbare consensus on an "obvious" minority opinion.

    Sure Palm placed some of their own features on it, but the foundational design is very much an IPhone copy.
    Multiple choice question: Which one of the above two statements is true?
  12. #52  
    When I cite resources such as Wired.com and ZDNet, they are not "journalist" in the sense of talking heads reading teleprompters. They are people who see more devices than you or I will probably be using in our lifetime. So when they're mentioning 2 have noticeable similarities, it's nothing to brush off.

    Palm based the Treo Pro design off the IPhone look, in terms of packaging and device design. And included some Treo signature features, like the keyboard and even tossed in a 3.5mm jack.

    Palm wants to make sales and has tried to mimic the design of a device that's a hot seller. No crime in that. Not highly innovative either.
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Palm based the Treo Pro design off the IPhone look, in terms of packaging and device design. And included some Treo signature features, like the keyboard and even tossed in a 3.5mm jack.

    Palm wants to make sales and has tried to mimic the design of a device that's a hot seller. No crime in that. Not highly innovative either.
    I don't agree with what you are saying...

    unless palm came out with a press release stating just that...

    I often here this such and such copied such and such... whatever....
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    unless palm came out with a press release stating just that...
    It would never be in their best interests to actually come out and say it. For one company to openly claim they modeled something like a rival could result in adverse litigation.
  15. #55  
    Although I don't have one in person, I looked at the official website picture again. You could say the shape and coloring is similar, but even then it's not an obvious copy, so I still can't say the Pro is an iPhone clone. They MAY have taken cues from the iPhone on design but to say it's a clone is still stretching it. There are so many other truly OBVIOUS clones that the Pro would be at the bottom of the list, if you even want to go there. The Pro still looks more like it's cousin, the Centro.

    Honestly, I do NOT get the first impression when looking at the Pro, "another iPhone imitation". That's the real indication of a clone IMO.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 10/30/2008 at 01:52 AM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. Fiffer's Avatar
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    #56  
    If the economy does get worse in the next few months, many companies will really experience a great downfall. Palm is a strong company but it doesn't mean that it will not get affected. Palm needs to produce innovative phones or maybe improve their OS. The Pro is a great achievement nonetheless but I believe that Palm could make a better phone in the future.
    Using a Centro with free ActiveSync at http://www.TheMessageCenter.com
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    They MAY have taken cues from the iPhone on design but to say it's a clone is still stretching it.
    That's a reasonable view of it. Of course it's not really a "clone", it's running WM .

    But I think you've nailed it and I see it stronger than a "may", in terms of Palm having taken several overall IPhone design cues in terms of the device and its packaging.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    When I cite resources such as Wired.com and ZDNet, they are not "journalist" in the sense of talking heads reading teleprompters. They are people who see more devices than you or I will probably be using in our lifetime. So when they're mentioning 2 have noticeable similarities, it's nothing to brush off.
    So the quality of the actual reviews or the ostensible intelligence of reviewers is irrelevant. I get it. Sentences like, "If a work colleague had left the new Palm Treo Pro face down on their desk you'd be forgiven for mistaking it for Apple's iPhone 3G," which compare the backs of devices (!) should be taken seriously because the writer has seen more devices. Common sense need not apply. Impossibly short timelines can be ignored. The difference between convex and flat backs is a mere inconvenience of fact that can be overshadowed by throwing in buzzwords like "iPhone-esque," since fanboys will eat them up like candy. This is a new low, even for ZDNet.

    Sorry, but doing a Google search on the keywords "Treo Pro," "iPhone" and "like" and linking to a couple of results is not an argument. If you really believe the Treo Pro simply copies the iPhone look, why not describe how in your own words instead of hiding behind published reviews found in a keyword search, or intentionally misquoting reviews to create a false impression of similarity?

    Palm based the Treo Pro design off the IPhone look, in terms of packaging and device design.
    More proof by repeated assertion. Whether your quoting hack writers or hacking good writers, your attempts to conflate packaging and product are acts of desperation that fool no one.

    Palm wants to make sales and has tried to mimic the design of a device that's a hot seller. No crime in that. Not highly innovative either.
    The Treo Pro is a hybrid between the previous Treo line and the Centro. By your lax standards, there's no cell phone on the planet that can't be compared to the iPhone. No crime in that, unfortunately.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiffer View Post
    If the economy does get worse in the next few months, many companies will really experience a great downfall. Palm is a strong company but it doesn't mean that it will not get affected. Palm needs to produce innovative phones or maybe improve their OS. The Pro is a great achievement nonetheless but I believe that Palm could make a better phone in the future.

    We need to see Nova ASAP. And it will need to be good enough to get many people to stop using WM, Android and also Mobile OSX. Otherwise, Palm will have to continue being just another manufacturer, like it has been, just to survive. But then Palm will need to keep up and not offer "incremental" upgrades, like it used to. They need to offer phones that will compete against what's out there and it would be nice if they could offer innovation, but I'd settle for them releasing up-to-date bug free phones first. There's already a BT bug reported for the Pro.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    That's a reasonable view of it. Of course it's not really a "clone", it's running WM .

    But I think you've nailed it and I see it stronger than a "may", in terms of Palm having taken several overall IPhone design cues in terms of the device and its packaging.

    I see the HTC Touch versions as clones, at least interface clones, and they're running WM. Clearly they can't be blatantly obvious, but you know they got the ideas from iPhone's touch interface. Touch Flo is too similar. However I think it's a good refresh for WM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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